Mac vs PC

[cityboy-stl]

So I booted OS/2 just to be a smart aleck and post in this thread.

 

[Corny]

In some cases, yes. In many cases, what they pay is not significantly more than what a Windows user pays.

No .. read MindBlast's post.

Should the unemployed be buying apple products?

[source]

So I booted OS/2 just to be a smart aleck and post in this thread.

Awesome! I liked OS/2. I still have a BeOS installation on some old machine, thinking about it - maybe I should give it a try again

 

[ximaera]

PC my choice ))

 

[andysayshi]

I prefer building a tower myself and installing whatever operating system I want. Why would I buy a prebuilt ANYTHING when I can do it myself for cheaper and I know what's going into my machine. Most computer builders skimp on something, somewhere. Whether it's shitty RAM, a low end motherboard, or something else they think people won't notice.

Nothing at all wrong with that, but's it's important to remember that the vast majority of computer users have neither the skill, time or interest for such pursuits. Most computer users look at their computer as a tool to get a job done. They just want it to do the job without problems.

There are obvious benefits to building your own gear, but the side-effect is the lack of accountability from your suppliers. If you custom build your machine and it starts crashing every day, the RAM supplier will blame the motherboard supplier, the drive supplier will blame the power supply etc etc. The major advantage of a pre-built system is that configuration problems aren't YOUR problem - "they built it, they fix it!". Guys like you and me can find the problems ourselves, but 99% of the population aren't guys like you and me. If you buy a Mac and it breaks down, you can take it to an Apple store and generally have it fixed or replaced while you wait. If you pay a bit extra for Applecare, they'll come to you and fix it.

The other annoying thing is having stuff like proprietary screws for the drive bays and shit like that.

You're right. But Macs don't require proprietary tools.

I can swap out all four SATA drives in a Mac Pro in 2 mins and 18 seconds (official time ) including the 16 phillips head screws on the four drive cradles. PCI cards don't require any tool other than a finger and thumb.

I've found most proprietary (by that I mean HP, Dell, Mac, etc) cases tend to have crappy airflow or loud fans. When you want to really flog your GPU, the graphics card tends to get hot and you need the extra airflow of a big 15 cm fan. I haven't seen anything that Apple (or any other computer builder) makes that has good airflow.

Antec makes great cases too, and I've been impressed with Corsair cases lately. Honestly, the case is a big part of the computer. If your machine is too hot, then your performance decreases.

That all makes sense if you're a gamer, but why would you buy a Mac if you were a gamer? Macs suck as a game platform. From an engineering point of view, I've never seen a case I liked better than a Mac Pro. They are solid, quiet, high quality and ingeniously easy to work with. And Mac Pros run very cool, even when running 12-core 3D renders for video, CAD and mathematical simulation tools. They just don't do extensive GPU cooling because it's not relevant to their market. That's beginning to change (for video editing tools especially) but right now isn't a major factor.

 

[bankside]

The trouble with those coolermaster cases is they look like cheeseball custom asian car imports with the neon backlighting and the "ground effects" and the muffler that only a muffler size queen could love.

Just add a spoiler mounted about a foot off the top edge of the case and a little LED flashing frame around the licence plate and you're there.

Compare with a piece of carved aluminum, sleek, comfortable, beautifully engineered, and with the same principles applying to the operating system. And I prefer my computers to look like a Jaguar, before Ford messed it up though.

Oh, back when OS/2 was around, it ran better than Mac OS of the day or Windows. And it should have stayed in the running or at least IBM could have opened it up or something, but I understand licensing issues with MS would have prevented that even if IBM was interested. In many ways the user interface still seems more robust and well conceived than today's OSs, but of course hopelessly out of date, particularly in its graphical look.

 

[cityboy-stl]

Oh, back when OS/2 was around, it ran better than Mac OS of the day or Windows. And it should have stayed in the running or at least IBM could have opened it up or something, but I understand licensing issues with MS would have prevented that even if IBM was interested. In many ways the user interface still seems more robust and well conceived than today's OSs, but of course hopelessly out of date, particularly in its graphical look.

OS/2 is not totally out of date. There is eComStation with the latest release being May 7, 2011. There is even a Firefox 3.6.8 for OS/2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EComStation

 

[RonR18]

Nothing at all wrong with that, but's it's important to remember that the vast majority of computer users have neither the skill, time or interest for such pursuits. Most computer users look at their computer as a tool to get a job done. They just want it to do the job without problems.

There are obvious benefits to building your own gear, but the side-effect is the lack of accountability from your suppliers. If you custom build your machine and it starts crashing every day, the RAM supplier will blame the motherboard supplier, the drive supplier will blame the power supply etc etc. The major advantage of a pre-built system is that configuration problems aren't YOUR problem - "they built it, they fix it!". Guys like you and me can find the problems ourselves, but 99% of the population aren't guys like you and me. If you buy a Mac and it breaks down, you can take it to an Apple store and generally have it fixed or replaced while you wait. If you pay a bit extra for Applecare, they'll come to you and fix it.



You're right. But Macs don't require proprietary tools.

I can swap out all four SATA drives in a Mac Pro in 2 mins and 18 seconds (official time ) including the 16 phillips head screws on the four drive cradles. PCI cards don't require any tool other than a finger and thumb.



That all makes sense if you're a gamer, but why would you buy a Mac if you were a gamer? Macs suck as a game platform. From an engineering point of view, I've never seen a case I liked better than a Mac Pro. They are solid, quiet, high quality and ingeniously easy to work with. And Mac Pros run very cool, even when running 12-core 3D renders for video, CAD and mathematical simulation tools. They just don't do extensive GPU cooling because it's not relevant to their market. That's beginning to change (for video editing tools especially) but right now isn't a major factor.

RE: "And Mac Pros run very cool,"

Unfortunately though, the same thing can't be said about the inadequately ventilated MacBook Pro laptop, which is plagued with overheating issues due to the 2 little dinky fans resulting in inadequate cooling. And of course, excessive heat greatly shortens the lifespan of circuit boards etc., which pretty much makes the extended warranty coverage mandatory for a MacBook.

And the cost from Apple for the additional 2 years of coverage is $349. And as Corny will attest to, a $349 Windows laptop would be adequate for 90% of computer users. Thus saving them the $1,799 cost of a 15" MacBook Pro, as well as providing them with a superior operating system. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to worry about being robbed at gunpoint because they're carrying something around that can be immediately sold on Craigslist for a minimum of $500 cash.

RE: "I can swap out all four SATA drives in a Mac Pro in 2 mins and 18 seconds"

Unfortunately though, the same thing can't be said about swapping out the drive in a MacBook Pro laptop, and a lot more people have them than the Mac Pro desktop. The convoluted procedure would be so complex for the average person, they'd probably take it to an Apple store to have it done, which they'd have to pay for, of course. And what would an Apple store charge for an upgrade of this nature, about $200 just for the labor?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9r1UAVq9AU[/ame]

 

[andysayshi]

RE: "And Mac Pros run very cool,"

Unfortunately though, the same thing can't be said about the inadequately ventilated MacBook Pro laptop, which is plagued with overheating issues due to the 2 little dinky fans resulting in inadequate cooling. And of course, excessive heat greatly shortens the lifespan of circuit boards etc., which pretty much makes the extended warranty coverage mandatory for a MacBook.

Plagued? Sorry, facts don't agree with you. Apple's warranty repair rates are amongst the lowest of laptop manufacturers - they are in the top four for warranty reliability. The aluminium cases of MBPs are designed to dissipate the heat out of the case, so while they often feel warm, the reality is that heat is being extracted away from the internals.

Download PDF for more info:
http://smidgenpc.com/2010/05/07/laptop-reliability-ratings-which-laptop-is-really-most-reliable/

And the cost from Apple for the additional 2 years of coverage is $349.

Shop around - first link I hit is $244.

And as Corny will attest to, a $349 Windows laptop would be adequate for 90% of computer users. Thus saving them the $1,799 cost of a 15" MacBook Pro, as well as providing them with a superior operating system. Not to mention the fact that they wouldn't have to worry about being robbed at gunpoint because they're carrying something around that can be immediately sold on Craigslist for a minimum of $500 cash.

Well, comparing a piece of clunky cheap plastic crap to a high-end, quality aluminium-unibody piece of engineering is rather like telling a Lamborghini owner they should've bought a Hyundai. The same old tired anti-Apple rant: "You could have spent so much less". Clearly, as Apple currently sell around 16 million laptops per year, their products offer something that the market considers worthy of extra expense. Belittling their decisions seems bitter - do you tell people who buy expensive cars that they should've bought cheaper ones? If your friend buys an expensive waterfront home do you tell him he could've saved money by buying an apartment next to the railway? Why do anti-Apple discussions always diverge into "I know what you need to buy better than you do" arguments?

RE: "I can swap out all four SATA drives in a Mac Pro in 2 mins and 18 seconds"

Unfortunately though, the same thing can't be said about swapping out the drive in a MacBook Pro laptop, and a lot more people have them than the Mac Pro desktop. The convoluted procedure would be so complex for the average person, they'd probably take it to an Apple store to have it done, which they'd have to pay for, of course. And what would an Apple store charge for an upgrade of this nature, about $200 just for the labor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9r1UAVq9AU

The MBP in your example is at least four years old. Replacing a hard drive in any MBP manufactured since 2008 takes 8 screws and about 3 minutes. I put extra RAM and an SSD in a friend's MBP a few weekends ago, and was finished before my friend had made me a cup of tea.



Rather long-winded video, installation happens at about 6:30

 

[andysayshi]

BTW, just to further reinforce the stats above (as last time I posted the reliability stats I was accused of cherry picking) I'll add the following from PCWorld magazine's most recent 79,000-user annual survey:

Apple come out on top of all manufacturers for laptop reliability and service satisfaction:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/211402/reliability_and_service_laptops.html

They also top the survey for desktop reliability and service:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/211081/2010_reliability_and_service_survey_desktops.html

Furthermore, Apple have topped the American Customer Satisfaction Index for the PC market for 7 years straight.

What does all this tell us? The obvious anti-Apple response is "it's all marketing hype, Jobs-loving drones, fanbois blah blah blah". But in reality, it shows that many, many people place reliability, premium quality, aesthetics and quality interface above features and specifications-for-dollars-spent.

 

[looseliam]

^ I wonder how much of those results are influenced by service and brand-loyalty.

Having worked in the service industry for quite some time, I know first-hand that something can be completely bollocksed but because of the service or loyalty the client has a positive opinion of the whole event.

 

[Yooper]

I like my Macs.

I don't want to get into any argument which is better, because I frankly don't care. All I know is I'm willing to spend a little more money for something that always works for my needs, rather than spending time I don't have constantly futzing with updates and settings and tweaks and such. I simply don't care about this!

I have to use a non-Mac at work; I also have to use a non-Mac at home because our intelligent IT department doesn't support anything but Internet Exploder and that doesn't really work on Macs anymore.

So I have two Macs at home, plus a fairly new Dell (and set up for me by a Rocket Scientist). Plus I use an antique Dell at work (a whole other story). I love my Macs and hate the Non-Macs. Period.

My Partner, who manages to mangle technology on a regular basis (including the Cable TV box, the cordless telephone, his cellphone...3 times...the list goes on) still cannot make the iMac behave badly...it just tells him that he can't do that. If that is a toy, so be it. It works for him. He manages his money, gets email, surfs the web, and uses it for what I'd bet 90% of people that use computers actually use a computer for. The thing has never once, in 4 years, crashed, frozen, acted up, etc. Which is worth HUNDREDS of dollars to me in the elimination of frustration. I can go for months and months, and never update software, and never does it stop what I need to do. I don't think I've updated my MacBook in a year and it works just fine. Never has a problem.

On the other hand, the Dell I have at home for work purposes ONLY, is only set to my workplace as a home page on Internet Exploder (which SHOULD be pretty secure), and I don't even access my email at home, weekly screams at me to update, update, update which takes at least an hour every Sunday. This is a total pain in the ass. Nevertheless, about once a month, I get a blue screen of death and it shuts down at random moments. Don't even get me started about the piece of crap I have to use at work (it is useless about 50% of the time).

Some people need appliances to get their work done. I'm one of them. I don't really care about performance, paint tools, ABC cards or anything else. All I need is a machine to get on the internet, get my work done, and off the internet, organize and email my terrible snapshots, type a few snail mail letters, do a bit of writing, and generally anything else, turn the thing off and go on with Real Life. My Macs suit this perfectly, and I don't mind paying extra for that reliability.

Bottom line, people use what works for them. Some people get Mercedes, some people get Kia automobiles. I keep getting Macs because they just work, and I'll pay a premium for that. Real Life keeps me too busy to futz with all that other crap I really don't have time for.

 

[RonR18]

Plagued? Sorry, facts don't agree with you. Apple's warranty repair rates are amongst the lowest of laptop manufacturers - they are in the top four for warranty reliability. The aluminium cases of MBPs are designed to dissipate the heat out of the case, so while they often feel warm, the reality is that heat is being extracted away from the internals.

Shop around - first link I hit is $244.

Well, comparing a piece of clunky cheap plastic crap to a high-end, quality aluminium-unibody piece of engineering is rather like telling a Lamborghini owner they should've bought a Hyundai. The same old tired anti-Apple rant: "You could have spent so much less". Clearly, as Apple currently sell around 16 million laptops per year, their products offer something that the market considers worthy of extra expense. Belittling their decisions seems bitter - do you tell people who buy expensive cars that they should've bought cheaper ones? If your friend buys an expensive waterfront home do you tell him he could've saved money by buying an apartment next to the railway? Why do anti-Apple discussions always diverge into "I know what you need to buy better than you do" arguments?

The MBP in your example is at least four years old. Replacing a hard drive in any MBP manufactured since 2008 takes 8 screws and about 3 minutes. I put extra RAM and an SSD in a friend's MBP a few weekends ago, and was finished before my friend had made me a cup of tea.

RE: "Plagued? Sorry, facts don't agree with you."

Sorry, but the facts on Google's search results don't agree with you.

RE: "Apple's warranty repair rates are amongst the lowest of laptop manufacturers - they are in the top four for warranty reliability."

That obviously doesn't mean the inadequately ventilated MacBook Pro isn't plagued with overheating issues due to the 2 little dinky fans resulting in inadequate cooling.

RE: "The aluminium cases of MBPs are designed to dissipate the heat out of the case, so while they often feel warm, the reality is that heat is being extracted away from the internals."

If that's true, it certainly hasn't proven to be a very effective way to "extract" the heat. As the fact is that the circuitry of the MacBook Pro* is still being exposed to an excessive amount of heat due to the inadequate ventilation and cooling, period. As evidenced by the relatively high 17.4% malfunction rate of Mac laptops compared to the low 12% rate for Mac Pro desktop computers.

*Note: I have no idea if the overheating problem extends to ALL MacBook Pro laptops... it could be isolated to just a certain percentage of them, etc. What I do know is that it's been an ongoing problem for years, and Apple engineers have not "gotten around" to fixing it.

And I think it's outrageous for a $1,799 laptop to malfunction more than much cheaper Asus and Toshiba laptops. Because if I'm going to pay such a premium price for a laptop, my number one expectation is reliability.

And your use of the word "warm" is very amusing. Here's some excerpts from a few examples of overheating complaints made by MacBook Pro customers:

Jun 12, 2011
"I have a MBP 2.2Ghz Quad Core i7. It overheats extremely when I do simple things like browse the web and browser iPhoto. It's ridiculous. When I touch the bottom of the MacBook, I can almost burn my fingers."

"It's funny how Apple didn't test these products before releasing them (because a BUNCH of people are reporting the HDD noise and the overheating issue)."

Source: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15392610#15392610

-----------------------------------------------------------​

Jun 26, 2011
"WOW... a lot of posts here about this issue. I thought I was going crazy having to wear space pants to not be burnt by my MacBook Pro. I have had mine in for service 3 times!"

"when running my MacBook Pro (15' 2011 model), it over heats to the point the fan is running crazy, you can barely touch the bottom top left corner, and if seems as though the device has gotten so hot repeatedly that the buttons and track pad are fading and or melting away a bit."

"I take it to the "genius" bar and upon convergence they usually wind up sending me home with broken stuff."

"frankly I am sick of going there and having them not fix anything. Fans, surfaces, cooling pads and all, this thing is a space heater and I'm beyond upset about it."

"I walked in and bought this new MacBook Pro expecting the quality indicative of Apple. Thus far, all I have received is a hot plate? Anyone down for eggs, I can fry em on it?"

Source: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15494093#15494093

-----------------------------------------------------------​

June 7, 2011
"Apple needs to address the heat and fan issues on 2011 13" and 15" models. They are well aware of the problems and are doing nothing. Way too much money to pay for a product with noisy fans, that will self destruct or shorten life expectancy due to high internal heat!"

Source: http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/app...64-3121_7-34512751-9.html?ord=ratingValue+asc

RE: "Shop around" - first link I hit is $244."

Haha, "first" one, huh? Aren't you the lucky one. As you could spend the next 40 days and 40 nights and not find a lower price than that.

RE: "Well, comparing a piece of clunky cheap plastic crap to a high-end, quality aluminium-unibody piece of engineering is rather like telling a Lamborghini owner they should've bought a Hyundai."

If you'd quit being so defensive and open your mind a tiny crack, it might occur to you that the info I posted is directed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase a Mac laptop, who need to be warned about the overheating problems. Or maybe you think info of that nature should be kept a secret from them?

RE: "The same old tired anti-Apple rant: "You could have spent so much less".

Hahahaha, the same old tired pro-Apple rant: "The MacBook Pro laptop may be a hotplate, but it's a sleek, aluminum-uni-body hotplate that's sexy enough to kiss, caress, fondle, and even rub your penis on before you slip it under your pillow at night to dream about pretty possessions."

I don't give a rat's butt how cheap looking a laptop is. Since I'm not rich, I only want the best value for my money, period. And what good is "a high-end, quality aluminum-uni-body piece of engineering" if you can't use it in a public place because it could get you mugged or robbed?

RE: "Clearly, as Apple currently sell around 16 million laptops per year, their products offer something that the market considers worthy of extra expense."

Their high volume of sales is exactly why people need to be warned about the deficiencies. Because Apple's customers include a HUGE percentage of poor people who have no business spending such an exorbitant amount of money on a "Lamborghini" laptop when they can easily get by with a "Hyundai" laptop.

I'm referring to people who are living from paycheck to paycheck, who need to save the $1,799 for food in case they get laid off, etc. And the only reason they're willing to blow all their savings on a Mac is because they've been sucked in by all the advertising hype.

RE: "Belittling their decisions seems bitter"

Belittling? Bitter? Besides Consumer Reports Magazine, how many thousands of other sites provide insight/info/opinions on how consumers can get better value for their scarce dollars? Are all those entities bitter? Are they belittling products by pointing out simple facts? And since you're providing negative facts about Windows computers, aren't you doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of? Is this a subtle way of revealing that you're a bitter person?

RE: "do you tell people who buy expensive cars that they should've bought cheaper ones?"

That example doesn't even remotely compare to the Mac vs Windows debate.

RE: "If your friend buys an expensive waterfront home do you tell him he could've saved money by buying an apartment next to the railway?"

Don't be silly, that's like comparing apples to lemons.

RE: "Why do anti-Apple discussions always diverge into "I know what you need to buy better than you do" arguments?"

Why are Apple fannies always so defensive if Macs are so great, to the point they're willing to misrepresent the posts they're "belittling?" Other than my error in posting outdated info about the complexity of swapping drives, the info I posted is factual, and directed at JUBbers who are on the fence about which laptop to buy.

Ultimately, they'll make their decision based on their own research of the pros and cons. So trying to suppress the cons by "belittling" the messenger is futile. In other words, you'd have more credibility if you refrained from characterizing "anti-Mac" comments as just, "I know what you need to buy better than you do" arguments.

RE: "The MBP in your example is at least four years old. Replacing a hard drive in any MBP manufactured since 2008 takes 8 screws and about 3 minutes. I put extra RAM and an SSD in a friend's MBP a few weekends ago, and was finished before my friend had made me a cup of tea."

My bad, I didn't realize that video was so old. But from skimming through the one you posted, there appears to be more involved than what you represented. And no offense, but saying "it takes 3 minutes" is an exaggeration that's nothing short of absurd. Although I'm sure it's true for someone like you, who has "administered hundreds of Macs."

But the average person who's never been inside a $1,799 laptop is going to take significantly longer than "3 minutes," in order to avoid voiding the warranty if nothing else. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself without carefully reading step-by-step instructions provided by Apple. And doesn't the procedure require a special type of screwdriver the average household doesn't have on hand? Meaning that it's going to take a whole lot longer than "3 minutes" just to obtain the tool you need.

^ I wonder how much of those results are influenced by service and brand-loyalty.

Having worked in the service industry for quite some time, I know first-hand that something can be completely bollocksed but because of the service or loyalty the client has a positive opinion of the whole event.

Good point.

 

[andysayshi]

Sorry, but the facts on Google's search results don't agree with you.

LOL! Google search = FACTS????

For the record, when I Google search your JUB username, the No 3 hit is a news story about a guy who was arrested with a computer mouse up his butt.

Let's be honest - if a company sells 16 million computers a year, if just 1% of those users is unhappy, that's 160,000 potential gripes. Based on the stats I provided, where the best performing laptop manufacturer on Earth (ASUS) has about a 15% malfunction rate within three years, that's A LOT of pissed off customers. That's why we use aggregated data like surveys to analyse trends. Anecdotal grabs never, ever tell the full story. Happy people don't post in forums to tell us their computer is working perfectly. Angry people post their complaints.

RE: "Apple's warranty repair rates are amongst the lowest of laptop manufacturers - they are in the top four for warranty reliability."

That obviously doesn't mean the inadequately ventilated MacBook Pro isn't plagued with overheating issues due to the 2 little dinky fans resulting in inadequate cooling.

So if Apple computers are "plagued" with problems, why do they have low levels of warranty repairs and the highest level of consumer satisfaction scores? I've posted two sources with a combined survey assessment of 109,000 users. Show me an equivalent survey that shows users are dissatisfied with their Apple computers.

RE: "The aluminium cases of MBPs are designed to dissipate the heat out of the case, so while they often feel warm, the reality is that heat is being extracted away from the internals."

If that's true, it certainly hasn't proven to be a very effective way to "extract" the heat. As the fact is that the circuitry of the MacBook Pro* is still being exposed to an excessive amount of heat due to the inadequate ventilation and cooling, period. As evidenced by the relatively high 17.4% malfunction rate of Mac laptops compared to the low 12% rate for Mac Pro desktop computers.

What does "relatively high" mean? Apple are less than 2% shy of the leader in laptop malfunction rates, and number 4 overall. If you read the linked article, you'll see that ALL laptops have a high failure rate compared to other consumer electronics, but in comparison to other laptops, Apple are at the top of the reliability table. If, as you claim, MacBooks/MacBook Pros have serious heating issues, show me the data. (A few quotes from a forum don't count as "data".) Statistically, Apple computers are very close to the most reliable laptops on the market, with very low malfunction rates within 3 years of operation. If your claims are true, where are the stats to prove it?

*Note: I have no idea if the overheating problem extends to ALL MacBook Pro laptops... it could be isolated to just a certain percentage of them, etc. What I do know is that it's been an ongoing problem for years, and Apple engineers have not "gotten around" to fixing it.

Prove it with data.

And I think it's outrageous for a $1,799 laptop to malfunction more than much cheaper Asus and Toshiba laptops. Because if I'm going to pay such a premium price for a laptop, my number one expectation is reliability.

And your use of the word "warm" is very amusing. Here's some excerpts from a few examples of overheating complaints made by MacBook Pro customers:

Jun 12, 2011
"I have a MBP 2.2Ghz Quad Core i7. It overheats extremely when I do simple things like browse the web and browser iPhoto. It's ridiculous. When I touch the bottom of the MacBook, I can almost burn my fingers."

"It's funny how Apple didn't test these products before releasing them (because a BUNCH of people are reporting the HDD noise and the overheating issue)."

Source: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15392610#15392610

-----------------------------------------------------------​

Jun 26, 2011
"WOW... a lot of posts here about this issue. I thought I was going crazy having to wear space pants to not be burnt by my MacBook Pro. I have had mine in for service 3 times!"

"when running my MacBook Pro (15' 2011 model), it over heats to the point the fan is running crazy, you can barely touch the bottom top left corner, and if seems as though the device has gotten so hot repeatedly that the buttons and track pad are fading and or melting away a bit."

"I take it to the "genius" bar and upon convergence they usually wind up sending me home with broken stuff."

"frankly I am sick of going there and having them not fix anything. Fans, surfaces, cooling pads and all, this thing is a space heater and I'm beyond upset about it."

"I walked in and bought this new MacBook Pro expecting the quality indicative of Apple. Thus far, all I have received is a hot plate? Anyone down for eggs, I can fry em on it?"

Source: https://discussions.apple.com/message/15494093#15494093

-----------------------------------------------------------​

June 7, 2011
"Apple needs to address the heat and fan issues on 2011 13" and 15" models. They are well aware of the problems and are doing nothing. Way too much money to pay for a product with noisy fans, that will self destruct or shorten life expectancy due to high internal heat!"

Source: http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/app...64-3121_7-34512751-9.html?ord=ratingValue+asc

See my point above. I can easily post hundreds of user complaints from Asus, Toshiba, Sony, HP, Dell, and Acer forums. It's meaningless. All these companies sell MILLIONS of devices. A percentage of those devices will be faulty, and the users of those faulty boxes will get shitty and post in forums.

I stand by the statistics I've posted - Apple computers have amongst the best rates of reliability, after-sales service and user satisfaction of any manufacturer. If you want to argue the point, show some real statistics like I did, not a random selection of individual forum posts.

RE: "Well, comparing a piece of clunky cheap plastic crap to a high-end, quality aluminium-unibody piece of engineering is rather like telling a Lamborghini owner they should've bought a Hyundai."

If you'd quit being so defensive and open your mind a tiny crack, it might occur to you that the info I posted is directed at people who are still deciding whether to purchase a Mac laptop, who need to be warned about the overheating problems. Or maybe you think info of that nature should be kept a secret from them?

If I've come across as defensive, I apologise. I'm doing this for a bit of fun while I wait for some motion graphics to render. I hope you're not investing too much emotion in this coz I ain't.

But I disagree with your premise that I'm trying to withhold information. On the contrary, I saw factual errors in your post and another poster's, and I've addressed them. I'm happy to address the things I DON"T like about Macs as well - they just haven't come up. Regardless, I'm all for hearing ALL the facts before making a decision. I've cited plenty of facts in this thread, and I implore you to do the same.

Hahahaha, the same old tired pro-Apple rant: "The MacBook Pro laptop may be a hotplate, but it's a sleek, aluminum-uni-body hotplate that's sexy enough to kiss, caress, fondle, and even rub your penis on before you slip it under your pillow at night to dream about pretty possessions."

It's typical for these discussions to become childish like this. I'm not shocked.

I don't give a rat's butt how cheap looking a laptop is. Since I'm not rich, I only want the best value for my money, period. And what good is "a high-end, quality aluminum-uni-body piece of engineering" if you can't use it in a public place because it could get you mugged or robbed?

I've never researched the "steal-a-bility" of consumer goods. Someone smashed a window in my car once to steal a carton of beer I had on the back seat. I still buy beer, but I must admit I always leave it out of public view in the car now.

But I suspect, if you live in an environment where your purchasing decisions are dictated by their likelihood of theft, you probably never buy anything nice. For that I'm genuinely sorry for you.

Their high volume of sales is exactly why people need to be warned about the deficiencies. Because Apple's customers include a HUGE percentage of poor people who have no business spending such an exorbitant amount of money on a "Lamborghini" laptop when they can easily get by with a "Hyundai" laptop.

I'm referring to people who are living from paycheck to paycheck, who need to save the $1,799 for food in case they get laid off, etc. And the only reason they're willing to blow all their savings on a Mac is because they've been sucked in by all the advertising hype.

Ah, so now we're social engineering. Are you equally critical of single mothers who buy disposable nappies when they could just use washable?

I mentioned in my previous post about these debates always devolving to "I know what you should buy better than you do". The defence rests.

Belittling? Bitter? Besides Consumer Reports Magazine, how many thousands of other sites provide insight/info/opinions on how consumers can get better value for their scarce dollars? Are all those entities bitter? Are they belittling products by pointing out simple facts? And since you're providing negative facts about Windows computers, aren't you doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of? Is this a subtle way of revealing that you're a bitter person?

You're misrepresenting me here. I never, ever question anybody's decision to choose the computer that suits them. I recommend and purchase Windows machines all the time. As I've posted ad nauseum in this forum, there are a lot of reasons to buy Windows machines: low budget? Gamer? Modder? Business-only office user? Go for it, save your dollars.

There's a reason Mac users are less than 10 percent of all PC purchasers - Macs fit a niche. I have never disputed that. Everything I've questioned in this thread has been factual inaccuracy, and I've defended everything I've claimed with reputable statistics. Can you say the same?

Why are Apple fannies always so defensive if Macs are so great, to the point they're willing to misrepresent the posts they're "belittling?" Other than my error in posting outdated info about the complexity of swapping drives, the info I posted is factual, and directed at JUBbers who are on the fence about which laptop to buy.

Ultimately, they'll make their decision based on their own research of the pros and cons. So trying to suppress the cons by "belittling" the messenger is futile. In other words, you'd have more credibility if you refrained from characterizing "anti-Mac" comments as just, "I know what you need to buy better than you do" arguments.

As I said above, there are lots of reasons to buy a Windows machine, and I've never said otherwise. All I've done in this thread is refute unsubstantiated claims against Apple machines. I tend to only jump into threads like this when they start devolving into Apple-bashing. I can't deny my platform preference, but I use Windows, Mac and Linux machines constantly, and I feel I know the strengths and weaknesses of them all.

One day, I'm going to post a "Things I hate about Apple" thread, just to surprise Corny.

But the average person who's never been inside a $1,799 laptop is going to take significantly longer than "3 minutes," in order to avoid voiding the warranty if nothing else. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself without carefully reading step-by-step instructions provided by Apple.

It's actually really, really easy. And Apple provide you with the instructions to do so. And, despite the usual debates, it doesn't void your warranty.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3419

And doesn't the procedure require a special type of screwdriver the average household doesn't have on hand? Meaning that it's going to take a whole lot longer than "3 minutes" just to obtain the tool you need.

Nope. A mini-Philips head screwdriver. My mum has one to change the battery in her kitchen clock.

 

[JB3]

No .. read MindBlast's post.

Why? There's nothing there that has anything to do with what I posted. When I can go into a Best Buy and price out an HP or a Samsung, and then go into the apple store and price out a Macbook Pro that's not significantly more expensive, why in God's name would I choose the POS Windows PC's?

 

[RonR18]

RE: "LOL! Google search = FACTS????"

LOL! You just annihilated your credibility with your first sentence! Because everyone knows Google is the Rolls Royce of facts, and it's the first source people turn to. Everyone from the U.S. president on down relies on it for research material on every topic conceivable. Yet you're disparaging it as a reliable source of info merely because of it's thoroughness in indexing everything. No offense, but how do you expect to be taken seriously in this debate when you make such nonsensical statements?

RE: "For the record, when I Google search your JUB username, the No 3 hit is a news story about a guy who was arrested with a computer mouse up his butt."

And your point is? For the record, the moniker "RonR18" is used by several different people on the Internet, just like your moniker. And the example you quoted just goes to show how reliable Google is, because the RonR18 who posted the comment on the article you referenced is me. (Although that's the only site besides JUB that I use that moniker on.)

RE: "Anecdotal grabs never, ever tell the full story."

Agreed. Which is why I used the word "plagued" to describe the overheating problem, since I was obviously referring to "anecdotal" data in the post that tripped your "anti-Apple" alarm.

RE: "Happy people don't post in forums to tell us their computer is working perfectly."

Not true, at all. I can show you post after post to disprove that.

RE: "Angry people post their complaints."

A company I called a few years ago to complain about something thanked me for bringing the issue to their attention, and said that only 1 out of 100 dissatisfied customers will go to the trouble of complaining. If that applies to the Internet as well, then every complaint that's been posted about the overheating issues with the MBP represents 100 other people.

RE: "So if Apple computers are "plagued" with problems,"

As you know, I never said "Apple computers" (meaning all their different models) are "plagued with problems," I said their "MacBook Pro laptop," is "plagued with overheating issues." And the real problem here is with your interpretation of the word "plagued." A good example of it's meaning is, "The country was hit by a plague of natural disasters that year." Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plague

So by that definition, what I said is 100% factual... and what you said in response to it is 100% wrong. And to avoid any additional confusion on your part, I clarified things in my followup post by spelling out, "I have no idea if the overheating problem extends to ALL MacBook Pro laptops... it could be isolated to just a certain percentage of them, etc."

RE: "why do they have low levels of warranty repairs"

You may regard a 17.4% defect rate for a $1,799 computer as being "low," but I certainly don't. For that kind of money, I expect them to at least spend an extra $10 to have a Chinese worker "burn test" them for a couple of days to ensure they work properly before selling them.

Especially since 3 different Windows laptops have a LOWER malfunction rate -- and 2 of them are much, much cheaper than the MBP.

And did it occur to you that the majority of MPB users affected by the problem may simply be ignoring it, as long as their laptop continues to function? As well, I've run across a number of posts from people who say they've resolved overheating problems on their own, via various solutions they found online.

RE: "and the highest level of consumer satisfaction scores?"

Who wouldn't be satisfied with Apple's customer service? After all, it's indisputably the best among major computer manufacturers. But what has that got to do with the topic of this discussion? In other words, just because they respond to overheating complaints, what does that prove? For all you know they may simply brainwash customers into believing the high temperatures are "normal and within an acceptable range."

RE: "I've posted two sources with a combined survey assessment of 109,000 users. Show me an equivalent survey that shows users are dissatisfied with their Apple computers."

Again, this discussion has nothing to do with Apple's full range of computers, it's about the overheating issues with their MacBook Pro laptops, period.

RE: "What does "relatively high" mean?"

I already told you -- in comparison to the low 12% malfunction rate of the Mac Pro desktop.

RE: "in comparison to other laptops, Apple are at the top of the reliability table."

Again, 3 different Windows laptops are rated as being more reliable than Apple... Asus, Toshiba, and Sony. Which is inexcusable, considering that you can get all 3 of them ($600 each) for the cost of ONE MacBook Pro. And if one of them craps out, you'd have 2 more to use while it was being fixed under warranty.

RE: "If, as you claim, MacBooks/MacBook Pros have serious heating issues, show me the data."

"Claim?" Don't you think that's an extremely deceptive way to put it? This is obviously not about me "claiming" anything. I simply stated facts that are all over the Internet. Specifically, that MacBook Pro's are "plagued" with overheating issues, and it's been an ongoing problem for years. And again, I also clarified that I was unsure how far the problem extends.

RE: "(A few quotes from a forum don't count as "data".)"

Haha, yeah, right... whatever you say. If YOU say they don't count, then they clearly don't count. As you would never intentionally say something that was misleading, right? Put another way, do you seriously think readers will just blindly accept anything you say in your futile attempts to make points in a debate you've already lost?

And in regards to your characterization of them as, "A few quotes," don't you think ridiculously deceptive statements like that destroys your credibility? I posted a "few" examples just to give people an idea of what I was referring to, since it'd obviously be senseless for me to waste my time posting huge amounts of data that's easily accessible via Google.

RE: "Statistically, Apple computers are very close to the most reliable laptops on the market, with very low malfunction rates within 3 years of operation."

Haha, again, 3 Windows laptops are more reliable than Apple laptops, and I don't consider a 17.4% malfunction rate for a $1,799 laptop to be "very low." An "inexcusable malfunction rate" is a more accurate description.

RE: "If your claims are true, where are the stats to prove it?"

"If" my "claims" are true? Wow, you just won't give up with the deceptions and distortions! And as I've already stated, the complaints are all over the Internet for anyone to see.

RE: "Prove it with data."

Let's be honest here, that absurd, "Prove it with data" comment only proves you're well aware that you've lost this debate, and now you're groveling around in the dirt, desperately trying to save face any way you can. Even to the point of trivializing the best search engine in the world. But you're only digging yourself in deeper with each nonsensical statement you make.

Anyone with an iota of common sense knows that with all the overheating complaints on Google about the MacBook Pro, there's clearly a significant problem. And they don't need any "official" surveys from computer magazines to "prove" it.

RE: "See my point above."

Haha, I didn't realize you used "point" as an abbreviation for the words, "Nonsensical distortion."

RE: "I can easily post hundreds of user complaints from Asus, Toshiba, Sony, HP, Dell, and Acer forums. It's meaningless."

Yet more deception, as there's nothing "meaningless" about it. The consumer complaints posted on the Internet about overheating issues with MBP's are 100% relevant to this discussion. As they prove my initial post was 100% factual, and that your response to it was 100% wrong. So the only way you're going to be able to save face is to man up and admit you're not perfect, and that this has been one of the few times in your life you've ever been wrong about anything.

RE: "All these companies sell MILLIONS of devices. A percentage of those devices will be faulty, and the users of those faulty boxes will get shitty and post in forums.

Again, as I indicated in my last post, I agree the overheating issue may only affect a "percentage" of MBP's, but that doesn't make the post that tripped your alarm any less factual.

RE: "I stand by the statistics I've posted - Apple computers have amongst the best rates of reliability, after-sales service and user satisfaction of any manufacturer."

As you know, I've never argued that point. I merely stated a true fact, which is that MBP's have been plagued with overheating issues, period.

RE: "If you want to argue the point, show some real statistics like I did, not a random selection of individual forum posts."

It's ludicrous to keep insisting that complaints from the "victims" are somehow not valid, and that only a magazine survey will "prove" there's a problem. The only reason you've latched onto that ridiculous notion is because you're well aware that a survey hasn't been done on the issue, and you think it'll enable you to save face.

You remind me of a cop with Alzheimer's disease who responds to an armed robbery at a bus stop. Despite a dozen people telling him their money was taken at gunpoint, he insists a robbery never occurred unless they can show him a video tape of it. And then he takes a big bite out of a jelly doughnut as he walks back to his car, mumbling to himself, "Those silly suckers will believe ANYTHING I say, because I'm sooooooo much smarter than they are."

RE: "But I disagree with your premise that I'm trying to withhold information."

It was a question, not a "premise."

RE: "On the contrary, I saw factual errors in your post and another poster's, and I've addressed them."

But there aren't any factual errors on my end, other than the drive swapping issue that was the result of an outdated video.

RE: "I'm happy to address the things I DON"T like about Macs as well - they just haven't come up. "

That obviously doesn't make you any less of a Macfannie.

RE: "I've cited plenty of facts in this thread, and I implore you to do the same."

Then you may as well concede defeat, because I've posted all the facts that are necessary to prove my case to people who have common sense. The case being that I was factually correct when I tripped your alarm. And here's something to prove my assertion that the overheating issue has been an ongoing problem for years. As the linked article is dated July 2006:

Cooking an egg on a MacBook​

Click the link below to see a pic of an actual egg being cooked on the bottom of a MacBook, while the "MacBook was operating within the manufacturer's specifications." Meaning that Apple was fully aware the laptop could burn you if you used it in your lap. But their only concern is making it as powerful, thin and lightweight as possible, since those are the features that sell. So minor details like customers winding up with a hotplate in their lap had to be set aside in the interest of amassing additional billions of dollars.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/17/cooking-an-egg-on-a-macbook/

RE: "It's typical for these discussions to become childish like this. I'm not shocked."

Yes, I must remember that a parody thrown in to lighten things up should never be humorous or satirical, since someone may regard it as "childish."

RE: "I've never researched the "steal-a-bility" of consumer goods."

Nor have I. But I remembered hearing a story on the news about robbers staking out Apple stores and following people home who purchased a laptop, at which time they'd rob them at gunpoint. So I looked it up on Google and recently made a thread about it: "Watch your back if you buy an Apple computer"

RE: "But I suspect, if you live in an environment where your purchasing decisions are dictated by their likelihood of theft, you probably never buy anything nice. For that I'm genuinely sorry for you."

Haha, I just don't believe in walking around with the equivalent of $500-$750 cash in my hand... ANYWHERE.

RE: "Ah, so now we're social engineering. Are you equally critical of single mothers who buy disposable nappies when they could just use washable?"

Comparing a $1,799 laptop to disposable nappies makes perfect sense.

RE: "I mentioned in my previous post about these debates always devolving to "I know what you should buy better than you do". The defence rests. "

When my hard earned food bank donations are handed out to laid off people who have a $1,799 MBP sitting in their house, I think I have the right to express the opinion that poor people shouldn't spend their life savings on the most expensive laptop that's available. Especially when they can get a Windows laptop for $350 that has a lower rate of malfunctions than the MBP.

RE: "You're misrepresenting me here. I never, ever question anybody's decision to choose the computer that suits them."

Yet another distortion of facts. You posted negative info about Windows computers, which by your own definition, constitutes "belittling" them and "being bitter"... which is what you accused me of for posting negative info about MBP's. So I haven't misrepresented you at all.

RE: "There's a reason Mac users are less than 10 percent of all PC purchasers - Macs fit a niche."

And a significant percentage of that niche consists of gullible poor people who are suckered by Apple's slick advertising hype. Sorry to trip your alarm again, but that's just a fact of life.

RE: "I have never disputed that. Everything I've questioned in this thread has been factual inaccuracy, and I've defended everything I've claimed with reputable statistics."

That's clearly not true, as once again, the info I posted about MBP's being plagued by overheating issues is 100% factual, and your response to it was 100% wrong.

RE: "Can you say the same?"

Can you say "lame?" Because that's what your never-ending attempts to save face have become. You keep repeating and rehashing the same misleading, deceptive nonsense over and over, as though you think people following this discussion will fall for such an amateurish brainwashing technique. And are you sure you're not a "paid" Macfannie, working for Apple as a forum shill or something? If so, it's extremely obvious that you get paid by the word. And just because you also recommend Windows at times doesn't rule out that possibility, especially since it would make your Mac spiel more believable.

Again, with all the consumer complaints accessible via simple Google searches, people with common sense don't need "magazine surveys" to tell them that MBP's are plagued with overheating problems.

RE: "All I've done in this thread is refute unsubstantiated claims against Apple machines."

Haha, yeah right. And there's NOTHING "unsubstantiated" about the overheating problems that MBP's are plagued with.

RE: "I tend to only jump into threads like this when they start devolving into Apple-bashing."

Haha, there was no "Apple bashing" in my post when you jumped in with the brightly lit Apple logo on your forehead flashing on and off, as you lovingly caressed your "quality aluminum-uni-body piece of engineering."

RE: "Nope. A mini-Philips head screwdriver."

But in the video you posted, the narrator specifically says that a, "Torx screwdriver" is necessary for the mounting screws on the sides of the drive, which is a type of screwdriver I've never heard of before. And in light of the fact you were implying the video would show readers how to swap an MBP drive out in "3 minutes," you should have at least watched the installation part of it.

 

[RonR18]

^Good Lord, Ron. Don't you think you're taking this a little bit too seriously? It's only a machine.

This all reminds me of those Europeans who get into riots over soccer matches.

RE: "Good Lord, Ron. Don't you think you're taking this a little bit too seriously?"

No, not at all. And shouldn't you be asking Andy that as well? After all, he's the one who chose to keep this debate going, despite having lost it in the first round.

RE: "This all reminds me of those Europeans who get into riots over soccer matches."

That's funny, because it reminds me of just another lively Mac vs PC debate, in which the Macfannie is trying to climb out of quicksand that he jumped into, but just keeps sinking deeper and deeper.

 

[andysayshi]

(Longest post ever - truncated to save space)

Phew, lots of words there Ron, but unfortunately they just show you simply didn't read, or understand, my previous posts. Let me summarise:

Nobody disputes Google is a wonderful resource to find information, but one most filter that information if one is to garner any true meaning. Using your rationale, I can "prove" that dogs that smell of cheese are in plague proportions (18,700,000 results). I can also "prove" the same about dogs that smell like maple syrup (1,210,000 results).

Common sense and personal observation tells me that cheesy and syrupy smelling dogs probably AREN'T in plague proportions. If I really wanted to know the truth, I would have to trawl through some of those Google hits until I found some aggregated information like a survey or statistical analysis. Because reading a few individual posts from one or two out of the world's hundreds of millions of dog owners doesn't tell me anything meaningful.

I could use your methodology to "prove" that HP laptops overheat, that Sony laptops overheat, that ASUS laptops overheat. All of these searches have thousands and thousands of results. Results that don't tell us much, because they are not aggregated. You avoid this by finding aggregated/averaged results with large sample sizes.

That's what I've done. I've shown you the stats from one of the world's largest warranty insurers, who have a vested interest in knowing what technology needs repair most often. I've shown you a user survey of 79,000 computer users. I've shown survey results from consumer analytics studies.

Aggregated data is the best way to make meaningful assessments of information. The larger the sample size, the better the data. My data includes over 100,000 samples, but the data you've provided has a sample size of 3 (4 if you count a 5 year old video of an egg frying).

Anecdotally, I've owned several MBPs and I have been responsible for dozens more in my work. Do they warm up? Yes, they're supposed to - the aluminium case is a large heatsink. Have I, or any other person I know, ever been burned by one? Never.

If the problems you claim are so serious, why does Apple continue to be the fastest growing tech company on Earth? Why are they selling more portable computers than ever before, if their MBPs are "plagued" with problems? Don't use the old "good marketing" schtick - if Apple's sales relied entirely on marketing and gullible fanboys, they wouldn't be selling MILLIONS of devices every month. And if it were true, they would never have a flop product, but of course they have had many.

I've shown you reliable, aggregated data to support my claims. You've posted your opinion, and the only support you've provided is a few isolated complaints. I'll ask one more time (with clarification): if Mac Book Pro portables are plagued with overheating issues, as you claim, show me some MEANINGFUL data to prove it. Despite Apple computers being in the TOP 4 of warranty reliability (less than 2% difference with the market leader), despite Apple computers having the highest user satisfaction of ALL computer buyers, and despite Apple sales continuing to grow exponentially, show me real data that proves your argument.

 

[RonR18]

RE: "Phew, lots of words there Ron,"

Yup, but it obviously takes lots of words to respond to lots of words.

RE: "but unfortunately they just show you simply didn't read, or understand, my previous posts."

Unfortunately, that nonsensical statement just destroys your credibility even more. As the mere fact that I responded to literally everything you said in detail, line by line, proves that I read your posts. And anyone who reads those responses can see that I clearly understood everything I was responding to.

RE: "Nobody disputes Google is a wonderful resource to find information,"

Haha, that's certainly not the way you put it in your last post. It was extremely evident you were belittling Google as not being a reliable source of facts, and now you're trying to put a different spin on it. And it just occurred to me the reason you used that mouse up the butt article as an example is because you didn't realize my JUB username was in it as one of the people who left a comment:

"LOL! Google search = FACTS????

For the record, when I Google search your JUB username, the No 3 hit is a news story about a guy who was arrested with a computer mouse up his butt."

RE: "but one most filter that information if one is to garner any true meaning."

At the risk of coming across as sarcastic... duh.

RE: "Using your rationale, I can "prove" that dogs that smell of cheese are in plague proportions (18,700,000 results). I can also "prove" the same about dogs that smell like maple syrup (1,210,000 results). Common sense and personal observation tells me that cheesy and syrupy smelling dogs probably AREN'T in plague proportions."

Yet more misleading, deceptive nonsense. Because anyone who has used the Internet for more than 5 minutes should know that without quotes around the phrase you're searching for, the search results are going to include countless things that have just one word of the phrase in it. Here's what Google brought back when I used quotation marks for your example phrases:

No results found for "dogs that smell of cheese"

No results found for "dogs that smell like maple syrup"

RE: "If I really wanted to know the truth, I would have to trawl through some of those Google hits until I found some aggregated information like a survey or statistical analysis."

Nonsense. That's only true for someone who hasn't figured out that quotation marks eliminate the need for a, "survey or statistical analysis." I've used Google to research literally 1,000's of different topics, and quickly found the exact info I needed simply by using quotes. And I can't remember a single time in which a "survey or statistical analysis" would have enhanced the value of the info.

RE: "Because reading a few individual posts from one or two out of the world's hundreds of millions of dog owners doesn't tell me anything meaningful."

Duh.

RE: "I could use your methodology to "prove" that HP laptops overheat, that Sony laptops overheat, that ASUS laptops overheat."

All those links are for the exact same thing... HP laptops.

RE: "All of these searches have thousands and thousands of results. Results that don't tell us much, because they are not aggregated. You avoid this by finding aggregated/averaged results with large sample sizes."

Again, quotation marks is all that's necessary to get "aggregated" results. Because Google will only bring back pages that have that exact phrase in them. How could it be possible for a computer guru like you to not be aware of that? Just how long have you been using the Internet, anyway?

RE: "That's what I've done. I've shown you the stats from one of the world's largest warranty insurers, who have a vested interest in knowing what technology needs repair most often. I've shown you a user survey of 79,000 computer users. I've shown survey results from consumer analytics studies."

And your point is? Again, what does that prove, other than the fact that you only spent a few seconds skimming over my last response, and you have nothing new to add to the discussion?

RE: "Aggregated data is the best way to make meaningful assessments of information. The larger the sample size, the better the data. My data includes over 100,000 samples, but the data you've provided has a sample size of 3 (4 if you count a 5 year old video of an egg frying)."

Are you resorting to playing a little game with me now, to where you think by rehashing the same nonsensical verbiage over and over you can wear me down? These last comments prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you didn't spend more than a few seconds reading my last response. Or else you're intentionally ignoring the points I made since you're unable to counter them. Because I've already responded to the same deceptive nonsense ad nauseam, and I see no point in repeating myself if you're just going to ignore me again. Trying to engage in an intelligent debate with you is not much different than talking to a fence post.

And the way you characterized the egg frying link is yet another example of how you try to mislead people and use deception every chance you get. As I specifically said the article/pic was intended to "prove my assertion that the overheating issue has been an ongoing problem for years."

RE: "Anecdotally, I've owned several MBPs and I have been responsible for dozens more in my work. Do they warm up? Yes, they're supposed to - the aluminium case is a large heatsink." Have I, or any other person I know, ever been burned by one? Never."

As badly as you've damaged your credibility with all your misleading, deceptive statements during our discussion, do you seriously think I'd believe a word you say in this regard? Besides, Apple themselves admitted, in writing, that the MBP's could "potentially" burn you, and this was after their firmware update had supposedly fixed the problem.*

And as far as the aluminum case acting as a heatsink, here's an excerpt from a 2010 article of interest:

"The metal shell proved ineffective at dissipating the heat as well as the similarly equipped Fujitsu Lifebook SH760, which finished the same test at 81 degrees, and actually required PC Authority to run the MacBook Pro on its side (see pic above) to complete certain tests."

Source: http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/26/core-i7-equipped-macbook-pro-hits-100-degrees-celsius-your-lap/

*Warning from Apple​

Printed in the MBP manual: "Do not leave the bottom of your MacBook Pro in contact with your lap or any surface of your body for extended periods. Prolonged contact with your body could cause discomfort and potentially a burn."

Source: http://www.tuaw.com/2006/05/19/psa-read-your-macbook-user-manual/

Although the article is dated May 2006, so what! The point is simply to prove that at one point, Apple themselves admitted their laptops could burn you if you used them in your lap, period. I have no idea if the same warning is squirreled away somewhere in the current MBP manual, and I really don't care. Because consumer complaints about severe overheating in the 2011 models is all I need in order to reach a conclusion.

RE: "If the problems you claim are so serious,"

Oh, so now you're putting words in my mouth? I never characterized the problems as being, "So serious." Once again, I simply said the MBP was plagued with overheating problems. Also once again, I've acknowledged ad nauseam that I have no idea how far the problem extends.

RE: "why does Apple continue to be the fastest growing tech company on Earth?"

Why would people who buy Apple's iPhone and other gadgets give a crap about overheating problems with their laptops?????? Hell, I'd buy their Mac Pro desktop computer to run Windows on if I could afford to pay the extra $1,200 for the Apple logo. Why? Because they aren't plagued with overheating issues or any other substantial problems.

RE: "Don't use the old "good marketing" schtick - if Apple's sales relied entirely on marketing and gullible fanboys, they wouldn't be selling MILLIONS of devices every month. And if it were true, they would never have a flop product, but of course they have had many."

Duh.

RE: "I've shown you reliable, aggregated data to support my claims. You've posted your opinion, and the only support you've provided is a few isolated complaints. I'll ask one more time (with clarification): if Mac Book Pro portables are plagued with overheating issues, as you claim, show me some MEANINGFUL data to prove it. Despite Apple computers being in the TOP 4 of warranty reliability (less than 2% difference with the market leader), despite Apple computers having the highest user satisfaction of ALL computer buyers, and despite Apple sales continuing to grow exponentially, show me real data that proves your argument."

Here you go again, you've repeated/rehashed the exact same b.s. I already responded to in my last post to you. So I suggest you go back and read it, because I'm not playing this ridiculous game with you. You got your butt whipped in this debate, and you know you have zero chance of saving face. So ignoring my last post/not quoting anything from it, and parroting yourself is the best you can do since you're not willing to man up gogirl and admit you were wrong. All I can say to that absurd tactic is, "Polly want a cracker?"

However, I am going to comment on a couple of things from your last paragraph in order to further discredit you:

RE: "I've shown you reliable, aggregated data to support my claims."

That's not true, at all. Absolutely NOTHING you've posted disproves my initial post that MBP's are plagued with overheating problems.

RE: "You've posted your opinion"

Referring to established "facts" as my "opinion" is an excellent example of the way you try to mislead people with your distorted, deceptive statements.

RE: "and the only support you've provided is a few isolated complaints"

This is the biggest joke of all. And I'm not buying your feigned ignorance about using quotation marks on search engines. The only thing I can conclude is that you think you're so smart, the majority of people aren't aware of it, and you're hoping I'm one of them. And if I'm not, then you'd simply claim you didn't know about it yourself.

Anyway, for anyone else following this discussion who wants 1,000's of aggregated* examples of the overheating problems that have been plaguing MBP's for years, here's some examples of search terms to type in Google using quotation marks:

*Again, as long as you use quotation marks with a phrase, Google will only give you pages that have that exact phrase in it.

"Macbook overheating" -- 23,000 results

"Macbook Pro overheating" -- 17,500 results

"Macbook Pro overheats" -- 6,990

"MBP overheating" -- 1,240

 

[andysayshi]

Okay, I don't want to sound like a school teacher here, but I have to admit that if I were your course leader in Statistical Analysis 101, I'm afraid you wouldn't just get an F. I'd have to make you repeat the year.

When you add quotation marks to a Google search, you don't AGGREGATE the results, you RESTRICT them. So, when you put quotes around a Google search for something, you're not getting an average response, you're saying "ONLY show me things that quote my search parameter WORD FOR WORD".

For example, if I'm researching things about a gay guy called RonR18 and search RonR18 gay (no quotes) I get about 12,000 results.

But if I Google search "RonR18 gay" including the quotation marks I get 0 results.

By your methodology, the latter result proves that RonR18 is not gay. By my methodology, there is some evidence that RonR18 is gay, but I would need to investigate the results to find more meaningful data to prove the likelihood.


Similarly, if I use quotes and Google search "cook egg on MacBook Pro" or "fry egg on macbook pro" or "poach egg on macbook pro" or "scramble egg on macbook pro" or "make eggs benedict with sea salt, a touch of cracked black pepper and a garnish of dill on mac book pro", I get zero results for everything.

But, as you have already proved, if I search "fry egg on mac book pro" with no quotes I get lots of results.

For the record, if you use MY methodology and trace the origin of your "Great MacBook Pro Fry-Up" story, you'll find the original article is this 2006 TAUW piece, with the following disclaimer:

This isnt really serious. Although it is theoretically possible to get egg protiens to congeal from the heat of a MacBook, the guy posted the story as a joke. That is all.

http://www.tuaw.com/2006/07/13/cook-breakfast-with-your-macbook/

One last try: show me some MEANINGFUL DATA to prove MacBook Pros overheat more than any other portable computer.

 

[RonR18]

RE: "Okay, I don't want to sound like a school teacher here, but I have to admit that if I were your course leader in Statistical Analysis 101, I'm afraid you wouldn't just get an F. I'd have to make you repeat the year."

If I was your ethics teacher, I'm afraid you wouldn't just get an F, I'd have to spank your butt every day of the year to teach you to just man up and admit when you're wrong about something.

RE: "When you add quotation marks to a Google search, you don't AGGREGATE the results, you RESTRICT them."

I'm not going to get into a hair splitting contest with you over the meaning of a word. As it's obvious you're just trying to use that silly spiel to distract people from the real issue. Which is the fact that you insisted there was no way to establish an overheating problem with MacBooks unless I could produce a "survey," etc.

And that absurd contention was based on having to do Google searches on phrases without quotation marks. You even used the 18,700,000 search results for dogs that smell of cheese as "proof," deceptively leaving out the fact that without quotes, Google is bringing back millions of pages that only have the word "cheese" in them. And that when quotes are used, Google brings back zero pages for that particular phase.

The bottom line is that by using quotation marks on just "Macbook overheating" -- you'll get 23,000 pages that have that exact phrase in them, which is more than enough consumer complaints to establish that Macbooks are "plagued" with overheating problems. Which clearly proves you don't need "surveys." But most of your b.s. has been centered around the absurd notion that I only had the few examples of overheating that I cited in one of my previous posts, because Google was supposedly worthless for finding more, since you'd supposedly have to search through millions of irrelevant pages.

And based on the deceptive way you've responded to what I said about using quotation marks in my last post, it's clear to me that you think you're so much smarter than everyone else, no one else reading this thread would know about using them. As that's the only possible way you'd be able to rationalize that you could pull off such a big, ridiculous con.

RE: "One last try: show me some MEANINGFUL DATA to prove MacBook Pros overheat more than any other portable computer."

Unbelievable, you've not only insulted the intelligence of everyone following this discussion more times than I can count, you saved one of the biggest insults for last. As your whole fanatical Macfannie position has been that there was no overheating problems with MacBooks, period, because I couldn't produce a "survey."

And now that I've spelled out how to instantly pull up many thousands of consumer complaints on the issue by using quotation marks, you've suddenly switched your position to, "Prove MacBook Pros overheat more than any other portable computer."

And by beginning your sentence with, "One last try," you're implying that's been your position all along. Again, unbelievable. As all these deceptions and distortions you've continuously utilized throughout this discussion have been so incredibly blatant and obvious, it's as though you could care less if they destroy your credibility.

But in answer to this latest misleading deception, as you know, my initial post had nothing to do with Windows laptops overheating. It pertained solely to the overheating issues that have plagued MBP's. Because at a minimum price of $1,799, it's obviously a lot more of an issue than with Windows laptops that are priced much lower. And the primary motive for my post was to illustrate the importance of an extended warranty when you're investing that much money in an electronic device that has a history of generating enough heat to greatly shorten it's lifespan.

Anyway, unless you want to keep this discussion going with yet more of your deceptive b.s., I'll wrap this up with one final reminder: For a little more than the cost of the MBP extended warranty, people can get an Asus laptop that has a 15.6% malfunction rate vs 17.4% for the MBP. And the lower power is not only adequate for most people, it'll generate less damaging heat. Plus, you won't have to worry about carrying something around in public that armed robbers and muggers will know at a glance they can sell on Craigslist for $500-$750 cash.