Maine People's Veto, will it pass or fail?

[thewiz]

I sometimes think that we have tried to make too great of leap too quickly. Perhaps we should have tried to achieve something like a common-law marriage recognition for gays:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common-law_marriage

We would have had the rights afforded couples married in churches; it would not require that churches conduct "marriages" and would create two different types of recognition: one by the church and one by the state.

Having friends who have been campaigning in Maine and who I have contributed money to, I think that we were pretty much on our own for this one. I criticize many of the large gay organizations for talking a good game but I don't see a lot of feet put on the ground.

Obama has been pretty clear on this issue: he has said he feels marriage is between a man and a woman. If we are going to blame him for not putting his political clout on the line, I think he would have been called a hypocrite by those on the right had he done so (and may have hurt the issue more than helped). I think that gays are taken for granted and given lots of lip service; I guess I look for action to earn my vote. I have argued with friends that certain political groups should automatically get my vote. Nope. Earn it or lose it.

I also have been amazed at how far things have come for gays. I knew I was gay at 12 but could not come out. The career that I wanted to pursue used to have questions on a polygraph that would disqualify you if you were "gay." Today, I am helping with a gay group at police memorial day ceremonies. What a difference years make. Fire has been much slower but DC does have a LGBT group for the first time (started by the fire chief).

Older people don't just have to align themselves with their bibles; they have to align themselves with years of teaching that gays were "sick." That any feelings towards the same sex had to be wrong; that you couldn't even cry or you weren't manly!!!

They say time heals all wounds; hopefully time heals all bias and discrimination.....

 

[NickCole]

Aren't you demeaning Obama and fellow gays for not going to Maine and not doing enough? Do you have different standards for yourself and everyone else?

I never demeaned Obama for not going to Maine.

It's weird watching how you can't stop yourself from mischaracterizing what I say.

I said Obama didn't give us a strong statement of support we could use in Maine. He could have done that from his bathroom for all I care.

Isn't it sad that instead of working on different strategies after a loss like this, we are pointing fingers and blaming others?

I've been working with people all day long, talking strategies.

You and a couple of others here are the only jerks I've encountered today.



"As I've asked many times on the Blend, why is it we can draw thousands to a Pride Day, but only muster 200 to lobby their lawmakers face-to-face. Our priorities are screwed. " -- Pam Spalding, Pam's House Blend, today

 

[DiamondSkin]

I can't believe that NickCole is blaming the loss of marriage equality in Maine on Obama.

Seriously?

You don't think the Religious Right, Republicans and the Catholic Church who campaigned and funded the damn debacle have NOTHING to do with it.

Ridiculous football politics.

People are so willing to be against Obama on every turn they'll make ludicrous claims.


Maine's gay marriage loss clearly has nothing to with the Republican Party and the Religious Right. Yep!

Obama's mere presence was the SOLE reason gays lost and it's ALL his fault.

 

[MystikWizard]

I can't believe that NickCole is blaming the loss of marriage equality in Maine on Obama.

It doesn't surprise you? You haven't been around for long enough, then.



Some posters that share his philosophies have already blamed Obama for:


The Iraq War
The War in Afghanistan
The Economy
Unemployment
9/11
The First Gulf War
World Wars 1 and 2
Hitler's Extermination of The Jews
Pearl Harbor
Mother Theresa passing away
The Civil War

and Adam and Even for eating the Forbidden Fruit.


.... all because their candidate didn't get elected. What those types of posters offer are essentially Comedy. When they post, simply have a good laugh, because they are here to entertain you.

Seriously?

You don't think the Religious Right, Republicans and the Catholic Church who campaigned and funded the damn debacle have NOTHING to do with it.

In the minds of posters with those mentalities and shared beliefs? Not at all. It was 100% Obama.

If God commands one thing, and Obama tries to rationalize something else, yet the voters take the word of God over Obama, then it is Obama's fault. Since we all know the Religious Right are rational people, anyway.

Obama's mere presence was the SOLE reason gays lost and it's ALL his fault.

See how it works? Pure Comedy. Just sit back, relax, spit out your coffee, and laugh.

 

[Kulindahr]

We have a President who told us he'd be our fierce advocate and he hasn't lifted a finger to help. That's bullshit and he should be called on it.

What did you want him to do -- go to Maine and lie?

Then you could blame his lies for the defeat.

He did the best he could with what the Maine situation handed him.

 

[Kulindahr]

The key is education for the youth coming in, for when they are older and mature enough to take an interest in voting, at least the majority of their belief systems will be set to Pro Gay Rights when they do decide it's time to start voting.

Voting habits are established in one's first few opportunities to vote. The great majority of those who won't get off their asses now won't do so in the future, either. But in the future, the religious folks will still turn out in droves, so...

using your "strategy", this will just go on and on.

 

[Kulindahr]

Gays gave Obama their support and their votes and their money. Obama promised to be a fierce advocate for us. He's done virtually nothing.

He went to New Jersey to support Corzine, who'd done a shitty job as Governor. But he wouldn't give us even a strong statement of support we could use in Maine.

Let's say you could have hypnotized Obama and gotten him to go to Maine and told him to give the strongest statement of support he could. Here's what you would have gotten.


"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Now, since all my gay friends supported me, I'm here to give them my best, so to all of you who don't like what the legislature here did, just stay home, please. Okay?"

 

[Kulindahr]

"As I've asked many times on the Blend, why is it we can draw thousands to a Pride Day, but only muster 200 to lobby their lawmakers face-to-face. Our priorities are screwed. " -- Pam Spalding, Pam's House Blend, today

That's easy -- you can't blend in with the crowd when you go to see your lawmaker face to face.

This is what we've been essentially saying here, but in different ways. It is not Obama's fault but it does lie on his shoulders now.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-karel-bouley/its-not-maine-its-the-pro_b_345248.html

This line got my attention:

...until a law is made that no state can deny anyone the right to enter in to a legal contract based solely on gender

All Congress has to do is take note, in a bill, of the fact that civil marriage is a contract.
Game over.

 

[Kulindahr]

I also think he is dead on when he says that it should not be left up to the public to make these decisions. It has always been the responsibility of the Federal Government to govern our rights. This should be no different.

No, it shouldn't be up to the public. Indeed, this whole process points up a glaring sickness in the initiative process in many states, namely, that it's possible to amend a state constitution with a mere majority of the vote!

If I had my way, any law infringing on the rights of anyone, especially a minority, should be susceptible to being overturned by a 1/3 vote. Thus, laws defining marriage, since marriage has been recognized as a right, could be toppled by a mere 33.4% of voters.

 

[JB3]

No, it shouldn't be up to the public. Indeed, this whole process points up a glaring sickness in the initiative process in many states, namely, that it's possible to amend a state constitution with a mere majority of the vote!

If I had my way, any law infringing on the rights of anyone, especially a minority, should be susceptible to being overturned by a 1/3 vote. Thus, laws defining marriage, since marriage has been recognized as a right, could be toppled by a mere 33.4% of voters.

The problem with referendums like this, too, is that the courts are loathe to declare the results unconstitutional. (because it was done by popular vote) So once they pass, unless a referendum is put together to reverse the earlier one, they're very hard to overturn.

 

[NickCole]

None of us can afford to wait another 40 years.

You'll wait as long as it takes, like any other minority waiting for their rights.

And the way you're going about it, it'll take a lot more than 40 years.

Those of us with residence in Connecticut have the right to marry now. We accomplished that.

 

[NickCole]

I can't believe that NickCole is blaming the loss of marriage equality in Maine on Obama.

Seriously?

You don't think the Religious Right, Republicans and the Catholic Church who campaigned and funded the damn debacle have NOTHING to do with it.

Ridiculous football politics.

People are so willing to be against Obama on every turn they'll make ludicrous claims.


Maine's gay marriage loss clearly has nothing to with the Republican Party and the Religious Right. Yep!

Obama's mere presence was the SOLE reason gays lost and it's ALL his fault.

Those who voted against us are, of course, the reason we lost.

But we also lost because too few gay rights and civil rights supporters voted with us. They weren't completely convinced we should have the right to be married, or for some reason didn't bother to come out to vote.

And we also lost because too many of our supporters failed help in our effort, including the most powerful man in the world who claims to be our fierce advocate, and who is in power in part because of our money and efforts.

We have no control whatsoever over religious bigots or Republicans who are against same sex marriage. We're not going to change their minds or stop them from voting, so it's not remotely productive to bellyache about them.

But we, and Obama, do have some chance to persuade fellow Democrats opposed to gay marriage to change their minds, and we do have some chance to influence fellow Democrats who support same sex marriage to get out and vote.

If you want to make change, the most obvious place to start is by using your best resources and getting those who are on your side to join in and participate.

 

[NickCole]

What did you want him to do -- go to Maine and lie?

Then you could blame his lies for the defeat.

He did the best he could with what the Maine situation handed him.

I wanted him to speak out publicly with a clear strong specific statement in support of our fight for our civil rights and nondiscrimination in Maine.

He had a perfect opportunity to do that during his speech at HRC last month but never uttered the word "Maine." He had another chance to do it when The Advocate wrote to him and asked for a strong statement of support we could use in our campaign and the White House gave them such a weak response we couldn't even use it because it would have hurt us.

Obama did not do anywhere near the best he could.

 

[NickCole]

Let's say you could have hypnotized Obama and gotten him to go to Maine and told him to give the strongest statement of support he could. Here's what you would have gotten.


"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Now, since all my gay friends supported me, I'm here to give them my best, so to all of you who don't like what the legislature here did, just stay home, please. Okay?"

That's not how a fierce advocate would frame support of our fight to gain full equal rights.

A fierce advocate of gay rights who is asked to lend his support and has a problem with gay marriage frames this as an issue of civil rights and discrimination.

 

[NickCole]

That's easy -- you can't blend in with the crowd when you go to see your lawmaker face to face.

Sometimes activism is one-on-one but lot of activism is a group of us meeting our lawmakers face to face, and believe me in those situations many faces blend in with the crowd.

 

[hotatlboi]

You'll wait as long as it takes, like any other minority waiting for their rights.

And the way you're going about it, it'll take a lot more than 40 years.

Those of us with residence in Connecticut have the right to marry now. We accomplished that.

You don't have the same rights as straight married couples, because a lot of rights are federal.

 

[NickCole]

You don't have the same rights as straight married couples, because a lot of rights are federal.

Yes I know.

That's why I've been pressing for Obama to keep his campaign promise to work to repeal DOMA.

But it's clear he's not going to do it. Not that I can pretend to be surprised.

 

[NickCole]

Obama needs to step the fuck up NOW and do what he should federally.

Yeah he didn't do anything the past nine months but he's going to now with Independents going Republican, Dems losing elections and 2010 midterms looming.

Real impressive tough talk, Elvin.

 

[NickCole]

As opposed to yours for blaming Obama for anything and everything under the sun is?
A bird could shit on a person walking down the street and you would take issue Obama.

Well of course that's not true.

But making up stuff is your forte.

What we need to do is push Obama to do something for us.

Ya think?!

Well you're moving in the right direction.

Isn't that what you've been saying all along Nicky?

Pretty much.

Except eight, six, four, two months ago was the time to push. As I've said all along, opportunity evaporates fast. You're late to the game and now the rules have changed. I wonder how long it'll take you to realize the implications of this week.

Or have you changed your mind and come up with a better more brilliant strategy in the last couple of minutes?

Haven't changed my mind. Just moving forward along with current events. You're about a year behind.

 

[Kulindahr]

I wanted him to speak out publicly with a clear strong specific statement in support of our fight for our civil rights and nondiscrimination in Maine.

He had a perfect opportunity to do that during his speech at HRC last month but never uttered the word "Maine." He had another chance to do it when The Advocate wrote to him and asked for a strong statement of support we could use in our campaign and the White House gave them such a weak response we couldn't even use it because it would have hurt us.

Obama did not do anywhere near the best he could.

Uh-huh.
There was no way he could give any stronger a statement than he did. All the other side would have had to do was air his answer at the Saddleback forum, and whatever weaseling way he'd managed to throw some support would have become counterproductive for both gays and him.

A fierce advocate of gay rights who is asked to lend his support and has a problem with gay marriage frames this as an issue of civil rights and discrimination.

Okay. "Gays are being discriminated against, and aren't being allowed to enjoy equal rights with straights in freedom association. Now even though I don't agree with it and think that the premise is wrong, I want you to go vote and help them get something I don't approve of".


Nick, I don't think you have any standards any more except "what Nick wants". You expect Obama to compromise his character, and you come down on others for sticking to theirs. There is no way under the sun that someone who said "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman" can say anything that will sound like "Go vote for gay marriage". Do you really expect someone who thinks what you're doing is wrong to support you in it?

Being a fierce advocate doesn't mean "agreeing with Nick and doing things his way", which seems to be your standard here.