Manufacturing declining, no hope for the future

[JayHawk]

Weird that the ignorant masses desire to blame unions for the decline of America when it is corporate decision making that holds a large portion of the blame...

In 2010, the percentage of workers belonging to a union in the United States (or total labor union "density") was 11.4%, compared to 18.6% in Germany, 27.5% in Canada, and 70% in Finland.[1] Union membership in the private sector has fallen under 7%[2] — levels not seen since 1932.

Anyone that thinks 11.4% of America and 7% of private sector America determines how the country goes is retarded in the derogatory sense .....

 

[JayHawk]

I have wondered that myself Jockboy but currently the onus appears a misguided attempt at blaming unions.

 

[Benvolio]

The low percentage of union workers represents a huge victory for American labor. They have waged war against employers and THEY HAVE WON. Those evil employers have been defeated and driven from the field, i.e. to India etc.

 

[DonQuixote]

We may have turned to a "service" economy, but the companies that manufacture things are still the real engines of prosperity.

As far as "Made in America" - it all depends on the industry, too. A LARGE & of the products I buy and sell at work are Home Grown MADE in the USA, AND environmentally friendly - welcome to the building trades.

Gypsum Drywall - a large % of what's made today is close to, if not, 100% recycled material - you read that right - from the paper facing to the fiberglass in the fire-rated synthetic Gypsum core. Oh, know what Synthetic Gypsum (aka CaSO4.2H2O) is? The smoke stack scrubbings from Coal powered power plants, run through a limestone wash filter to lock it into a pure form.

Cold Rolled Steel studs - made from all those cars that went to cash for clunkers (what scrap didn't wind up sold to China, Japan, etc.)

Fiberglass Insulation - now even more eco friendly w/ Sugar Cane Stalk based binders instead of Formaldehyde Urea based.

Ceiling Tile is made from Iron Ore Slag that is exploded/expanded.

Fasteners, now, that's another issue - Taiwan, Korea, and China for lesser quality fasteners is still primary.

 

[Benvolio]

If the workers become satisfied, why should they pay big union dues? Therefore, the union bosses must continue to demand and get more and more-- until the employer can no longer compete.

 

[JayHawk]

Right Ben with 7% of the American workforce and that is the problem...

This is funny. A thread started about the decline of cheap unskilled manufacturing in China has turned into those claiming (illegitimately) to be conservatives getting upset about unions in America instead of excited at the idea that with the correct training we can get a cut of that high end techno manufacturing pie.....

 

[Benvolio]

Right Ben with 7% of the American workforce and that is the problem...

This is funny. A thread started about the decline of cheap unskilled manufacturing in China has turned into those claiming (illegitimately) to be conservatives getting upset about unions in America instead of excited at the idea that with the correct training we can get a cut of that high end techno manufacturing pie.....

We do get a cut of the pie. We just have to outsource the physical labor.

 

[JayHawk]

Actually we are third in the world for Tech manufacturing and as the OP article indicates China is trying to vie for that pie too...

it is simply not the case in any shape or form that unions are somehow responsible for the current decline. the current world decline is based on illegally vouched for derivatives that originated in the US and because of the corrupt republican party not a single soul has gone to jail for having ham stringed the entire planets economy.

 

[DonQuixote]

The US has seen many manufacturing jobs return to the States over the past four years.
Toyota has also been the "most American" car the past several years - by government manufacturing criteria,
which does NOT include final assembly.

Tech Support is starting to come back from the subcontinent as their standard of living and wages increase, and our dissatisfaction with the service decreases.

The ratio of Wealth held by the rich vs the AVERAGE, as I previously mentioned, has "trickled UP" the past 12+ years to change from a 125:1 ratio to a 275:1 ($$/RICH vs $/AVERAGE). This is NOT Rich to Poor, it's Rich to AVERAGE.

When you suck that much wealth out of the consuming portion of the economy - High volume Food, Clothing, Shelter, etc. vs.
Maserati's, Lear Jets, etc. that very few can afford, and even those who can afford don't need very many, you have a recipe for disaster to a healthy economy.

The Wealthy were very comfortable at the 125:1 ratio. The 275:1 ratio is obscene. Don't take my word for it. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet think so, too.

People like Eric Cantor, on the other hand, are adamantly against campaign finance reform, and was a prime beneficiary of the LEGAL (for them but not us) Insider trading that Congress was privy to. He also is in love with Big Oil and it's Corporate Welfare programs - what else would you call an Oil Depletion allowance program that was intended to help a FLEDGLING industry way back when, but is against Wind, Solar alternative energies (even though some of the Big Oil companies are fairly heavily invested in the green alternatives to oil).

The main thrust of this thread was pointing out how China is running afoul of the same labor/production issues that we have - and we are even seeing the benefit of the return of some of those jobs - enhanced by increased automation and push back, perhaps, but it is happening.

 

[Kulindahr]

If the workers become satisfied, why should they pay big union dues? Therefore, the union bosses must continue to demand and get more and more-- until the employer can no longer compete.

"Big union dues".




A cashier at the grocery just down the street pays less than a third of one percent of monthly salary as union dues.

 

[JayHawk]

You know Kuli... the local talk radio Occasionally has interesting stuff... so the l;ib host the other day pointed our she paid 66 a month for premium healthcare and a pension while she belonged to the union... whereas the conservative guy said he had mid grade insurance and no pension for 100 a month... and then he said someone is obviously getting screwed...

The entire discussion was on self negotiation versus collective bargaining. The conservative guy claiming he was perfectly fine with negotiating for himself and why cant teachers do it for themselves as well. He never came back around to the concept that he negotiated for himself and got a shitty deal.

 

[DonQuixote]

Of course not.
And, corporations negotiate with Insurance Companies and suppliers, using their size for clout - why shouldn't labor?
Oh, that's right, because labor isn't a for profit corporation.

 

[Benvolio]

No one doubts that unions get a better deal for their members. But they don't know when to stop, and Federal law requires the company to negotiate with the union. Meanwhile in other countries the workers don't get such lucrative deals, so their employers can undersell American.

 

[palemale]

No one doubts that unions get a better deal for their members. But they don't know when to stop, and Federal law requires the company to negotiate with the union. Meanwhile in other countries the workers don't get such lucrative deals, so their employers can undersell American.

Isn't the problem that in "other countries" that don't recognize labor rights, a worker who organizes a union or goes on strike could end up dead or in jail? It isn't an unfair trade practice to suppress democracy or labor rights, but shouldn't it be?

 

[Kulindahr]

You know Kuli... the local talk radio Occasionally has interesting stuff... so the l;ib host the other day pointed our she paid 66 a month for premium healthcare and a pension while she belonged to the union... whereas the conservative guy said he had mid grade insurance and no pension for 100 a month... and then he said someone is obviously getting screwed...

The entire discussion was on self negotiation versus collective bargaining. The conservative guy claiming he was perfectly fine with negotiating for himself and why cant teachers do it for themselves as well. He never came back around to the concept that he negotiated for himself and got a shitty deal.

I think of it this way: if someone thinks he should negotiate for himself, then why doesn't he also insure himself, sell his house himself, serve as his own attorney, draw the blueprints for an addition to his house himself, build his car himself, install his plumbing himself, rewire his house himself, etc.?

Not everyone can do everything. That's why we have professionals who know how to do things, so we can focus on what we are good at. Any worker who thinks he can negotiate his own compensation deal is either a fool or is in the wrong job: a fool, because going up as one person against an entity with lawyers and executives experienced in getting their own way is eminently foolish; in the wrong job, because if he can handle that he should be doing it for a living.

 

[xbuzzerx]

You know Kuli... the local talk radio Occasionally has interesting stuff... so the l;ib host the other day pointed our she paid 66 a month for premium healthcare and a pension while she belonged to the union... whereas the conservative guy said he had mid grade insurance and no pension for 100 a month... and then he said someone is obviously getting screwed...

The entire discussion was on self negotiation versus collective bargaining. The conservative guy claiming he was perfectly fine with negotiating for himself and why cant teachers do it for themselves as well. He never came back around to the concept that he negotiated for himself and got a shitty deal.

When it comes to unions, conservatives and water cooler Joes NEVER see it as: hey, how come we all aren't getting decent benefits from our employers. They see it as: hey, how come UNION people are getting benefits and I'm not?! And then, lazily, somehow the conclusion is drawn that the union people are getting it out of everyone else's pocket somehow, or at the expense of their benefits, even when one has nothing to do with the other.

Out here in CA when there was the chain of grocery store strikes several years back, I couldn't tell you how many times I heard people say things like "why should THEY get that? I have to pay xx $$ for MY health insurance at work!" As if what Albertsons was paying its stockers and cashiers somehow in any way took from the pot that Northrop or (insert other employer) employees were getting.

 

[Kulindahr]

When it comes to unions, conservatives and water cooler Joes NEVER see it as: hey, how come we all aren't getting decent benefits from our employers. They see it as: hey, how come UNION people are getting benefits and I'm not?! And then, lazily, somehow the conclusion is drawn that the union people are getting it out of everyone else's pocket somehow, or at the expense of their benefits, even when one has nothing to do with the other.

Out here in CA when there was the chain of grocery store strikes several years back, I couldn't tell you how many times I heard people say things like "why should THEY get that? I have to pay xx $$ for MY health insurance at work!" As if what Albertsons was paying its stockers and cashiers somehow in any way took from the pot that Northrop or (insert other employer) employees were getting.

Wait -- you mean they aren't the center of the world, and everything revolves around them?

 

[Laufey]

Real economy and paper economy aren't the same thing.

A part of the 2008 crisis was that the paper economy wasn't in touch with the real economy.

 

[BostonPirate]

Real economy and paper economy aren't the same thing.

A part of the 2008 crisis was that the paper economy wasn't in touch with the real economy.

In what way, precisely? I agree, but I have yet to find anyone that agreed with me for the same reasons.

 

[BostonPirate]

If the paper economy has purchasing power, it is real.

Unless the paper is a title or deed to a property. Then by your definition, it is real and it is valueless based on certain variables.