Mass shooting at Pulse Nightclub in Orlando Florida: Political Discussion [SPLIT]

[TX-Beau]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

Nor does this address what she said.

Yes, it does.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

Yes, Islam is culturally homophobic; it's hard to make the case it is religiously so -- at least if you stick to the actual text rather than encrustations.

Christianity is homophobic in exactly the same way.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NRA is responsible for the Orlando killings

Do you know what strict liability is? Why was it waived by Congress for the gun industry?

The American people have every reason to expect it to be applied to the gun industry. They need to pay for their externalities.

Plus the NRA needs to be considered a hate group.

Congress hasn't waived it, they actually insisted on it.

If the NRA is a hate group, so is the Human Rights Campaign: both piss people off by fighting for a right that others find distasteful.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

Taking only the word of Jesus and ignoring the ancient world cut off hands and sell kids into slavery and stone prostitutes stuff in the Old Testament is a presentation of Christian teachings that varies by denomination and interpretation. You cannot hold Islam to its worst passages if you recuse the same standard for Christianity.

Well, literarily speaking there's a difference: in Christianity, the Bible presents a progression where the new trumps the old (cf. the new wine and old wineskins metaphor), while Islam presents everything in the Qur'an as equal in status.

What does apply is context, and radical Islamists have less respect for that than radical Christianists.

 

[Kulindahr]

How can this old dirt say this:
""Barack Obama is directly responsible for it, because when he pulled everybody out of Iraq, al-Qaida went to Syria, became ISIS, and ISIS is what it is today thanks to Barack Obama's failures, utter failures, by pulling everybody out of Iraq," a visibly angry McCain said as the Senate debated a spending bill."

McCain fails to go back to the fact that Bush invaded Iraq without just cause. If he were to be fair, he'd go back even father and say that Reagan, Bush I, Bush II, and Obama are all responsible.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: NRA is responsible for the Orlando killings

That selling more guns is the only way to stop gun violence.

But the only people who say that are on the left.

That assault weapons are for use in self-defense or hunting.

Since "assault weapon" is a meaningless term, any statement using it is meaningless.

They've actively worked to market to children and deceived Americans about the public health hazard.

Guns don't pose a public health hazard -- they're non-infectious inanimate objects.

Through various media, movies, tv, and radio they've promoted an inherently dangerous product as benign.

Guns are more inherently protective than they are dangerous: merely seeing one can make a bad guy back down, whereas they actually have to be fired to be dangerous.

 

[Kulindahr]

No, they said that there is no constitutional protection for concealed carry and every fucking hunter is "open carry" which was never even an issue. YOU are trying to imply that they said carrying handguns into bars is constitutionally protected - which it isn't.

You know damn well that there is nothing constitutional about gun regulation.

Read the ruling -- they said that if there's a right, it's open carry.

Thus, laws against open carry would be unconstitutional.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't know a single hunter who carries an AR-47 into the woods.

The only AR-47 I know of is a fully military weapon, i.e. an actual assault rifle with selective fire. So... changing the subject again.

 

[Kulindahr]

No, that's just false.



https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

Sorry, but SCOTUS listed the Second an individual right over a dozen times long before Miller. Further, Miller supports both an individual and a collective right. In Heller, the Court unanimously agreed it is an individual right, as well -- they just disagreed on how far it extends.

 

[Kulindahr]

There's now over 300 millions guns in the United States for about 330 million people. Close to 100 people die from gunshots every day- someone dies from a gunshot wound every 16 minutes in the US.

So, how many more guns will be needed before the protection begins? Another million? Another 100 million?

Protection is already in place: someone uses a gun for protection in the U.S. better than once a minute, according to the CDC -- possibly several times a minute.

 

[TX-Beau]

The only AR-47 I know of is a fully military weapon, i.e. an actual assault rifle with selective fire. So... changing the subject again.

Wait a minute, you've been pushing this meme that there is no such thing as an assault rifle.

I'm not changing the subject, YOU are obfuscating, apologizing, pretending your opinions are fact, inventing reality, and all around pretending that your opinion and imagination are fact. You do this every time we have this conversation, you say the same things, make the same apologia, insist your opinion is more than just that, and here we are, yet again, more dead, and you would have us do nothing, so be it, Heller was paid for by Wayne LaPierre, the NRA ceased to be anything but the lobbying arm of the Gun industry a long time ago, and there IS NO SECOND AMENDMENT ARGUMENT!

You know as well as I do that there is nothing unconstitutional about regulating firearms.

 

[Kulindahr]

Arguably the best trained citizens would be those who have served.
Why is it that on average, military veterans are more likely to engage in gun related crimes than other citizens?
mobile.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/us/13vets.html

Shouldn't their training prevent misuse by your reckoning?

Why should military training be any guarantee of proper civilian use? It's the wrong training. Counting on it would be like expecting people trained to drive in a demolition derby to be safer on the highway.

People trained for civilian use are less likely to commit any kind of crime than the rest of the population.

 

[TX-Beau]

Sorry, but SCOTUS listed the Second an individual right over a dozen times long before Miller. Further, Miller supports both an individual and a collective right. In Heller, the Court unanimously agreed it is an individual right, as well -- they just disagreed on how far it extends.

No it doesn't, that is just your imagination - once again.

 

[Kulindahr]

The militia system existed in English colonies and England prior to police forces.

That is to say the concept is archaic, like night carts are.

No, it isn't, any more than religious freedom or freedom of speech are archaic. The militia system is merely a rational outgrowth of the inherent rights to keep and bear arms and freedom of association. Given the latter, it's only as archaic as gay marriage.

Besides which, it doesn't predate police forces at all, merely the name -- the concept of "the Watch" goes back to medieval times or earlier.

 

[Kulindahr]

It wouldn't matter if the NRA was sued out of existence, that would be fruitless.
The NRA, like other lobbyists will be funded on a needs-must basis by its sponsors with limited retained funds and no liabilities placed on gun manufacturers.

It could be sued for all it's worth and shut down. That wouldn't stop gun manufacturers from sponsoring a new gun lobbyist in its place.

Gun manufacturers have their own lobby -- the NRA is a civil rights organization, or at least was forced into that role.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Florida Gay Club PULSE has been attacked with injuries, and possible hostage situation.

Yes, it does.

She said this specific individual took some inspiration from Islam for his actions. You fallaciously accused her of extending it to all Muslims.

Granted that she tends to do that, but in this case she didn't.

 

[Kulindahr]

Christianity is homophobic in exactly the same way.

That's pretty much what I said.

 

[Kulindahr]

Wait a minute, you've been pushing this meme that there is no such thing as an assault rifle.

I'm not changing the subject, YOU are obfuscating, apologizing, pretending your opinions are fact, inventing reality, and all around pretending that your opinion and imagination are fact. You do this every time we have this conversation, you say the same things, make the same apologia, insist your opinion is more than just that, and here we are, yet again, more dead, and you would have us do nothing, so be it, Heller was paid for by Wayne LaPierre, the NRA ceased to be anything but the lobbying arm of the Gun industry a long time ago, and there IS NO SECOND AMENDMENT ARGUMENT!

You know as well as I do that there is nothing unconstitutional about regulating firearms.

Good lord, try reading what I've said.


No, Heller wasn't paid for by the NRA; they initially tried to stop it (my guess is because La Pierre figured a real victory would be bad for fundraising). The NRA only got on board once the case was clearly going to SCOTUS.

And the NRA is hardly the "lobbying arm of the Gun industry"; gun manufacturers support the NRA out of necessity, not because it is their friend (the NRA has tried to destroy more than one firearms company).


Oh -- stop lying about my position. If nothing else, it makes you look like you have absolutely nothing so you have to make shit up.

 

[Kulindahr]

No it doesn't, that is just your imagination - once again.

Try reading some history. I've documented the multiple references before, and Miller is cited by both sides in the debates... because it supports both the individual and collective rights.


BTW, in so doing it is in a significant way closer to the original meaning of the Second than La Pierre & Co.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yes Heller was paid for by the NRA, no, Individual Rights were not ALWAYS assumed, you don't want to accept the last and want to ignore the first, so be it.

You've said all of this ad nauseum and further argument is pointless.

Your most quixotic fantasy is that everyone having guns will mean fewer dead people because of guns. That really beats the one about how responsible gun owners actually are.