Mature-Age-Gays who blindly married Women decades ago

[Latimer]

I know a male couple who were in marriages until they were in their late forties, divorced, met each other and seem thoroughly happy together, while having good relationships with their children and former spouses, who have also remarried successfully.

I also have a friend who was in relationships with men until he was in his early forties and then decided to give up men, marry and have children. He tells me he's quite happy, and that having sex with men when you're young and hot and marriage to a woman when you're older and not as hot is the way to go.

 

[aaggii]

While I don't necessarily disagree, I think the problem I've always had with people waving a hand and saying that gay men married to women are "using them" is the concept that plenty of straight men don't simply use women, including in their marriages, as well.

I might go so far as to say there is no marriage where you could not find a way to say that both parties are "using" the other in some manner, or for something. If gay men "use" women in marriages for protection, do not many women "use" men for income or to have a family? And vice-versa?

Everything is possible, every situation you wrote here has happened and still happens. But the topic refers to gay men, in denial, who use women to ¨look normal¨.

As for the 2nd part of your post, believe it or not, there are marriages where no one is using anyone. Sure, you have advantages, but you don´t use your spouse. You love him.

 

[ElmosToe]

Everything is possible, every situation you wrote here has happened and still happens. But the topic refers to gay men, in denial, who use women to ¨look normal¨.

To be clear though, many of said men are probably not doing it for shits and giggles.

Along with the enormous social, political, family pressures and obligations issues, in many countries that could include not wanting to be killed;there is also the simple fact that not everyone just wakes up one day with a clear head in figuring themselves out, knowing themselves and knowing exactly what they want. Even if there is some clarity there, it is most likely stifled by the reality that dealing with the possibility of being gay and not knowing what to make of it is paralyzing enough to the point to just toss it on the shelf or bury deep down, learning to live with that suppression to be able to deal with everyday life.

As men, we are for the most part, fortunate to have the mental capacity to compartmentalize.

It's generally easier to detach yourself from feelings and thoughts and keep them bottled up. Doesn't make it right and it is not the healthiest, but when you need to suck it up to deal with shit, protect your family, provide for your family, you do whatever you can to not let shit get in your way.

I would think that gay men of all people would fully understand the things these men go through and be somewhat more sympathetic to the struggles they endured in just trying to make the best decisions they could to merely live in our fucked up, unrealistic, hypocritical society riddled with double standards and false pretense without the benefit of the internet or a place like JUB or even the hand holding of some caring family member or a therapist.

Perhaps putting oneself in their shoes would allow for a little more understanding and compassion.

I have found even now, in our so-called enlightened society, people often do things, make decisions, say things, act in ways that are rarely from the pure convictions of their own heart or will, but more often than not, out of obligatory motivations that are primarily rooted in social, family and professional considerations.


Maybe if our society wasn't so judgmental, hypocritical and full of passive illusions meant to control how men specifically interact, people would be more inclined to be themselves and make clear decisions to better their lives and the lives around them.

 

[aaggii]

So what exactly is new in your post? There are so many posible scenarios that the general responses in this thread won´t cover a small part of them. Yes, there are men trapped in a place where they have to hide who they are and will most probably never be able to leave. They do what they can and some manage to maintain the appearances. But there is this thing as being a hypocrite and going too far. In some of this places, a marriage is not what we all know - nothing more than business, keeping the wealth in the family, having the right connections etc. See India, I literally can´t find a better example. They are pretty much kids when they are being forced into marriage. In this types of circumstances, maybe you are right.

BUT

I was talking about developed countries where marriage isn´t imposed, where things started to move some time ago and day by day it gets better. I think that OP was reffering to this when he started the thread. You want to hide you are gay? Hide it, but don´t go as far as lying to someone a whole life. Stay single or be honest, if you don´t like it. Imagine you are on the other side of this situation, after a lifetime together, you find out your partner lied every single day about himself and you as a couple. Let me see your excuses for this one.

As men, we are for the most part, fortunate to have the mental capacity to compartmentalize.
.

And look how happy they are.

 

[eastofeden]

To be clear though, many of said men are probably not doing it for shits and giggles.

Along with the enormous social, political, family pressures and obligations issues, in many countries that could include not wanting to be killed;there is also the simple fact that not everyone just wakes up one day with a clear head in figuring themselves out, knowing themselves and knowing exactly what they want. Even if there is some clarity there, it is most likely stifled by the reality that dealing with the possibility of being gay and not knowing what to make of it is paralyzing enough to the point to just toss it on the shelf or bury deep down, learning to live with that suppression to be able to deal with everyday life.

As men, we are for the most part, fortunate to have the mental capacity to compartmentalize.

It's generally easier to detach yourself from feelings and thoughts and keep them bottled up. Doesn't make it right and it is not the healthiest, but when you need to suck it up to deal with shit, protect your family, provide for your family, you do whatever you can to not let shit get in your way.

I would think that gay men of all people would fully understand the things these men go through and be somewhat more sympathetic to the struggles they endured in just trying to make the best decisions they could to merely live in our fucked up, unrealistic, hypocritical society riddled with double standards and false pretense without the benefit of the internet or a place like JUB or even the hand holding of some caring family member or a therapist.

Perhaps putting oneself in their shoes would allow for a little more understanding and compassion.

I have found even now, in our so-called enlightened society, people often do things, make decisions, say things, act in ways that are rarely from the pure convictions of their own heart or will, but more often than not, out of obligatory motivations that are primarily rooted in social, family and professional considerations.


Maybe if our society wasn't so judgmental, hypocritical and full of passive illusions meant to control how men specifically interact, people would be more inclined to be themselves and make clear decisions to better their lives and the lives around them.

I am fine with them in general as individuals UNTIL the second they insert themselves into my life via judgement and actions. I met a lot of these guys in the line of duty and it is no coincidence that a clear majority of them pretty much disiked gay men in general except for the sex part which of course translated into not liking the "part of them" that was gay.

Of course...a lot of these same men don't really "like" women either..they just like to fuck them.

"Society" begins with the person in the mirror and if you want to make a better society...lead by example. BE the change you hope to see in others.

 

[fourozfree]

I always thought they lied and used women, even if ¨they probably did what they believed to be best givin' their personal situation at the time¨, end of discution. Sure, there were other times, other places, but lying is lying, and marriage was a bigger thing back then than it is now. Let´s not turn them into victims when it comes to this, please.

It's easy for you to say from your perspective that this is "lying" because at this point in time it is possible to be gay, and I agree that for someone to identify as gay today and to marry a woman would be lying. However, back in the day, gayness was not so much an identity as it was viewed as a sexual attraction/perversion that must be suppressed. People were not "gay" in the way we have constructed it today, even if we look back at these "gay" people and say that today they would probably be gay. Marrying someone of the opposite sex was not so much a question of sexual orientation (which did not exist yet as a concept), or even sexual attraction, as much as it was a question of social propriety and procreation.

It may be useful to look at the alternative option to marriage, which would be to remain single. I have not researched this, but I would guess that many people also did this. However, remember that the reason to do this would not be "I can't marry a woman because I am gay," because, again, people did not see themselves as "gay or straight."

You can look back and say, "that's wrong," but that's an overly simplistic way of looking at the past.

 

[aaggii]

You missed my posts. I´m reffering to men in their 30s to 50s who got married from 10 to 30 years ago and that lived in a civilized country where being gay was getting easier. I think this what OP wanted to talk about, not for what happened 100 years ago.

 

[dpnice]

....... not for what happened 100 years ago.

100yrs ago is a little exaggerated; it was still illegal in England only 60yrs ago and gays in their late 50s who married early on in life were possibly those for whom marriage did seem correct and their 'deviation' something that should be hidden.

You did comment on under developed nations and did unsympathetically state that they should just get up and leave family and everything behind.

I understand your position and probably agree with you, yet unfortunately we are all arguing on a basis of personal experience and hear say rather than any in depth study of how widespread this happens to be.

I think you are right that these days it is no longer a necessary road to follow unless of course you are, Mormon or from a strong religious family where your family responsibilities may well over ride you own personal feelings.

I accept the statement that they are living a life of deceit; what got my hackles up was the automatic assumption that the women are being "used". As if there is no loving, affectionate relationship involved.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

live civlized country?
_ so back tips then?_
betta no look da records
_ ooh_

thankyou

 

[aaggii]

100yrs ago is a little exaggerated; it was still illegal in England only 60yrs ago and gays in their late 50s who married early on in life were possibly those for whom marriage did seem correct and their 'deviation' something that should be hidden.

You did comment on under developed nations and did unsympathetically state that they should just get up and leave family and everything behind.

I understand your position and probably agree with you, yet unfortunately we are all arguing on a basis of personal experience and hear say rather than any in depth study of how widespread this happens to be.

I think you are right that these days it is no longer a necessary road to follow unless of course you are, Mormon or from a strong religious family where your family responsibilities may well over ride you own personal feelings.

I accept the statement that they are living a life of deceit; what got my hackles up was the automatic assumption that the women are being "used". As if there is no loving, affectionate relationship involved.

I was exaggerating with the 100 years thing. I should have just said ¨some time ago¨.

You are putting words in my mouth, though. I did say that gay people who live in opressing countries should leave, but for their own good. I never said ¨leave the family¨. Take Russia, for example: they haunt gays. If I have anything to say to them, well that is: ¨leave, search for a better life, it will be hard, but it will happen¨. They don´t have to leave their family for good, they can keep the appearances up in their home country, each time they go back, but ideally they should get the hell out and make a life somewhere else. It´s not like it never happened. How many stories like this have we read or saw on tv? Too many.

Isn´t this better than closing in, get married and stay unhappy for the rest of your life just to be accepted? Could YOU marry a woman (assuming you´re gay), be happy and make her happy for decades? Maybe in words it doesn´t sound as bad as it is, but I think that every story about an older gay man who was married to a woman ended up in ¨feeling so free after accepting it, feeling alive, enjoying life as it is¨ etc.

 

[Pianist]

We all walk our individual paths, and make decisions at any given time that, we hope, are the right ones at the time we make them. Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not and, we live with the consequences of any given decision. How we "live" with said consequences is also a decision.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Everything is possible, every situation you wrote here has happened and still happens. But the topic refers to gay men, in denial, who use women to ¨look normal¨.

And again I return to: you believe many straight people marry to look abnormal, or to rebel against social norms, or to reinvent the wheel?

Most people marry someone from an extremely similar social, cultural, economic and racial background. The concept that only a scenario of a gay man marrying a straight woman falls under the accusation of marrying to fit social norms is flawed.

 

[ElmosToe]

I was talking about developed countries where marriage isn´t imposed, where things started to move some time ago and day by day it gets better. I think that OP was reffering to this when he started the thread.

I am fine with them in general as individuals UNTIL the second they insert themselves into my life via judgement and actions. I met a lot of these guys in the line of duty and it is no coincidence that a clear majority of them pretty much disiked gay men in general except for the sex part which of course translated into not liking the "part of them" that was gay.

Of course...a lot of these same men don't really "like" women either..they just like to fuck them.

I'm not disagreeing that living a lie is wrong.
And Eastofeden, I have much respect for you and in no way am I attempting to trivialize your experiences.

However, I think we are giving way too much credit as to how enlightened our society is even right now, let alone 30 years ago.


For example,
the general mentality of the people in the area where I live, is like living in the deep south of the U.S. in the 1950's-1960's. Only thing missing is lynching.

They passively segregate neighborhoods and schools... the mayor and city council does this...white people refer to blacks and Hispanics as rats without even giving it a second thought.

Not sure if you remember or are familiar with the film Boys Don't Cry.
This was based on a true story of Brandon Teena. a trans man who was murdered for being a "fag". This took place in 1993 just within a few miles of where I live and not much has changed as far as their mentality goes...


Something else to consider is with the advent of our technology I know there are many people who are only now beginning to see there are avenues to deal with whatever thoughts and feelings are going on in their heads that they previously did not know what to do with.

In making friends here I have encountered so many men who are in this very boat.
The women they marry have their suspicions, some do know but they either accept it and move forward or the women themselves choose to live in denial. If they can't, they end up in divorce. I don't think it's any coincidence the increased divorce rate in the U.S alone has has gone up to 50% as quickly as it as, ironically just as the technology boom in the last 10-20 years has made the internet, smart phones, social networking and hook up apps a permanent fixture in our lives.

Speaking for myself, I do have an attraction to women and still desire to have a wife and children and that has nothing to do with social, family or religious obligations or expectations. I also acknowledge I am not straight and do have a level of interest in men. In my opinion though, that level of interest does not equate to being gay or even bi. I have no desire to be a romantic relationship with a man. What I feel with men is something completely different than what I feel with women.

"Society" begins with the person in the mirror and if you want to make a better society...lead by example. BE the change you hope to see in others.

Easier said than done.


My larger point is that the reality does not match society's expectations, obligations or ideals. In other words, 'straight' people are not straight and the idealistic view many seem to have of how far along our society has progressed is just that, idealistic. People are not as accepting and tolerant and are still living by the restraints of the BS hetero-normative stereotypes, social, political, religious, professional and family obligations and expectations even here in the U.S.

You don't just simply cut yourself or your family off and move to a more liberal or enlightened area, not without a very heavy price.

 

[aaggii]

And again I return to: you believe many straight people marry to look abnormal, or to rebel against social norms, or to reinvent the wheel?

Most people marry someone from an extremely similar social, cultural, economic and racial background. The concept that only a scenario of a gay man marrying a straight woman falls under the accusation of marrying to fit social norms is flawed.

Then, give your 2 cents.

ElmosToe, I perfectly understand. I come from such a place, but even in the darkest times I never thought it would be ok to get in a serious marriage with someone I don´t want to. Every point in your last post has good grounds, but it is not an excuse in these days to marry someone you are not even attracted to. As for your personal experience, you do what you think it´s best, as long as you don´t mislead your future wife, right?

 

[ElmosToe]

but it is not an excuse in these days to marry someone you are not even attracted to.

I agree, it's not an excuse in the western world in 2014, but it has been one of many if not a major reason as to why a gay man will marry a woman, even the last 10-30 years. Also, I think the term attraction is a very broad term and these men can find other things attractive about a woman that surpass the sexual aspect, but I also think that even applies to any couple.

That does not give anyone the right to judge and condemn them. Even in Eastofeden's case where he has encountered bullshit from these men. Just take a step back and think what their life must be like. Take those actions of hate with a grain of salt because it's merely a reflection of their own disgust they feel about themselves.

As for your personal experience, you do what you think it´s best, as long as you don´t mislead your future wife, right?

I would never lie to the woman I plan to marry. I'm a very open, honest person and it is partly why I am not married yet. Finding a beautiful woman who is accepting and understanding and on the same level mentally and may even have her own level of curiosities with women is not easy. Could delve into the whole double standards BS of our society but I don't have the patience for that right now.

 

[Gentleheart]

A product of their times? It's simple...but in a lot of cases, it just comes down to that.

Gay rights and acceptance have progressed quite a bit in the last twenty or so years. Perhaps at this point, more people can embrace who they really are, and live their lives on their own terms.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...life is too fucking short to live it by someone else's standards and expectations. I can't help but feel terribly for anyone so worried about society's views that they put themselves into a (near-)permanent situation of denying who they are and/or deceiving someone else.

If you want to be part of a farce, go for it. But at least make sure all parties are in on the joke. That applies not just for the situation presented in this thread--but across the board.

Unlike a lot of other people...I fucking hated Brokeback Mountain and was not sympathetic to the characters. I didn't like either one of them.

You're not alone in that. I can't stand it.

Maybe if our society wasn't so judgmental, hypocritical and full of passive illusions meant to control how men specifically interact, people would be more inclined to be themselves and make clear decisions to better their lives and the lives around them.

You'll hear no argument from me there.

 

[aaggii]

I agree, it's not an excuse in the western world in 2014, but it has been one of many if not a major reason as to why a gay man will marry a woman, even the last 10-30 years. Also, I think the term attraction is a very broad term and these men can find other things attractive about a woman that surpass the sexual aspect, but I also think that even applies to any couple.

That does not give anyone the right to judge and condemn them. Even in Eastofeden's case where he has encountered bullshit from these men. Just take a step back and think what their life must be like. Take those actions of hate with a grain of salt because it's merely a reflection of their own disgust they feel about themselves.

I said at least attraction. That was my point, why do you marry someone? Basically, love, right?

Yes, their lives are not what one expects from life, agree 200%, but again - it is not a good enough reason to lie someone for so much time.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Then, give your 2 cents.

ElmosToe, I perfectly understand. I come from such a place, but even in the darkest times I never thought it would be ok to get in a serious marriage with someone I don´t want to. Every point in your last post has good grounds, but it is not an excuse in these days to marry someone you are not even attracted to. As for your personal experience, you do what you think it´s best, as long as you don´t mislead your future wife, right?

I said at least attraction. That was my point, why do you marry someone? Basically, love, right?

Yes, their lives are not what one expects from life, agree 200%, but again - it is not a good enough reason to lie someone for so much time.

I think that's a modern and largely western notion, and relatively new as something every individual person expects. Marriage traditionally (and still, in many parts of the world) has been about connecting two families in a way that was somehow socially advantageous. You think people in arranged marriages, even if both were straight, were in love or even necessarily wanted to touch each other? Or even in a more contemporary example in our own culture, celebrity sham marriages, which I suspect happen a great deal more than is probably generally known, but helps both of their careers.

I'm merely pointing out that marriages to fit social expectations being blamed as something unique or definitive to closeted (or non-closeted) gay men marrying women is unsupportable.

 

[Kahaih]

I sometimes wonder if disarming the general population is one of the biggest reasons we rarely hear the phrase 'shotgun wedding' anymore.

I know there are still plenty of girls/women who purposely get knocked up to 'catch a man'.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

maybe UN hire exoricsts custom fa each great civlied lands
" best stain remova eva ans wipe all historays records ans memoerry evarthang"

& ooh nooooooooo zombies &
AD or BC?

ha

thankyou