McCain flunks Made in America 101

[Kulindahr]

Focussing on a couple of misspoken or misplaced words does no favours to either side of the political spectrum. I'm sure McCain's intent was to express that Apple is a massively successful US Company, whose enormous profits land soundly in the US. Apple products are designed entirely in the US.

.... Don't get bogged down in the politics of semantics.

^ This.

But it's past time he was put out to pasture -- we can do better than a foe of the Bill of Rights.

 

[Kulindahr]

The problem here is that the profits land in the american stock market, and completely skip the laborers of america who desperately need work.

We are talking about tens of thousands of jobs.

Foxconn makes them. That company is mostly known for the fact that its employees like to kill themselves at work.

http://www.chinahush.com/2010/05/12/why-do-foxconn-employees-keep-jumping-off-buildings/

charming, right?

At the very least they could put the factories in Mexico, providing jobs so fewer Mexicans violate the border. That's why I support a tax break for companies that keep jobs on the continent, a lesser one for those who keep them in the hemisphere, neither break nor penalty if they have jobs in our allies, but penalties for companies that move jobs to anywhere else.

I think these days that would be too complex for McCain to follow.

 

[BostonPirate]

At the very least they could put the factories in Mexico, providing jobs so fewer Mexicans violate the border. That's why I support a tax break for companies that keep jobs on the continent, a lesser one for those who keep them in the hemisphere, neither break nor penalty if they have jobs in our allies, but penalties for companies that move jobs to anywhere else.

I think these days that would be too complex for McCain to follow.

Wasn't NAFTA supposed to do that? I mean, Its tariff free and transport is over land or by air. all you pay is freight.

Its that whole ingrained mindset of being against china, officially designated as our most favored trading partner. Its like a flaunting whore at sunday mass. everybody judges her in the open, but they never mention the handjob in the dennys parking lot the night before.

We all hate the chinese trade agreement, yet we eat it up like Fat kids in a candy store... From the consumer, who loves to catch a deal at walmart and costco, to the megacorps, like apple that can hire a company that litterally drives people to jump to their deaths off out of their office windows.

On every level and in every way... america is addicted to chinese products.

And god I hope people don't take me wrong here, but really... when it comes to choosing between buying cheaper shoes or some asian woman jumping out of a window, we are all sort of OK with the chick taking the leap of faith.

Our greed numbs us to the suffering it creates.

Mexicans? They are the villains... we dehumanize them in an entirely different way. We take them for a ride get cheap labor and tell them they are too worthless and dangerous to stick around on a permanent basis.

Mexicans have taken a HEAVY beating in the last two years, and it is not only morally bankrupt, but it is harmful financially for the nation.

 

[Kulindahr]

Mexicans? They are the villains... we dehumanize them in an entirely different way. We take them for a ride get cheap labor and tell them they are too worthless and dangerous to stick around on a permanent basis.

Mexicans have taken a HEAVY beating in the last two years, and it is not only morally bankrupt, but it is harmful financially for the nation.

I don't take any Mexicans for a ride. But if I find out they're here illegally, I call the cops on them, and hold them if I can.

I think the best thing we could do for Mexico, and for the illegal invader/trespasser problem, would be to get all the U.S. company factories out of the eastern hemisphere and put them in Mexico. I saw an estimate of 400,000 manufacturing jobs U.S. companies have in Asia -- move those to Mexico (where labor is actually cheaper these days) and watch our neighbor's economic and social health improve!

As for illegals here, I'd even give a tax credit to an employer that gave one a job IFF they registered that illegal, and paid half of a $5000 fine for coming here illegally. The other half would come slowly out of the worker's paycheck, and after three years of successful employment the worker would become eligible for legal status.

And if a company is caught employing illegals without participating in that plan, ten thousand dollar fine per.

Wonder if McCain would support that.

 

[BostonPirate]

Something tells me he would not. Just a feeling...lol.

Mexico is a mess right now. America is captivated by Wisconsin and Libya... labor and oil, baby. That is the bottom line for us right now. Anybody could tell you what happened in libya this last week, but who is talking about what is happening south of the border?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...u-s-tariffs-as-truck-border-dispute-ends.html

Mexico will cut tariffs on $2.4 billion worth of U.S. products after the United States agreed to end a ban on Mexican trucks crossing the border, Economy Minister Bruno Ferrari said.

The countries will likely sign a formal trucking agreement in June and some tariffs will immediately fall, Ferrari and Dionisio Perez-Jacome, the minister of communications and transportation, said yesterday at a news conference in Mexico City.

“We’ll lower 50 percent of tariffs to all the products once the agreement is signed,” Ferrari said. “The 50 percent remaining will be lifted once the U.S. grants the first authorization for a Mexican truck to operate” across the border, he said.

We wont let them drive the product they would make for us over the border. Its pointless. Why have a free trade agreement if we dont allow them to deliver the goods?That is just being changed now.

The Mexican president has been visiting Obama this week, right?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28616541/ns/politics-white_house/

 

[Kulindahr]

We wont let them drive the product they would make for us over the border. Its pointless. Why have a free trade agreement if we dont allow them to deliver the goods?That is just being changed now.

The Mexican president has been visiting Obama this week, right?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28616541/ns/politics-white_house/

The problem isn't the delivering the goods, it's the astoundingly decrepit and unsafe things they call trucks that they wanted to transport the goods in.

 

[BostonPirate]

The problem isn't the delivering the goods, it's the astoundingly decrepit and unsafe things they call trucks that they wanted to transport the goods in.

HA

emissions or vehicular safety standards? You have to appreciate that as a business owner, there is no competition here.

They are just screwed... all the violence and debt. Its a nightmare. As I said in the thread about New Jersey... you cant attract business unless you can guarantee safety and a decent labor pool.

Chinese labor may not be educated or well trained, but its cheap and its reliable.

It does make me wonder what the chinese mexican relationship looks like. I dont really know that either.

 

[andysayshi]

We all hate the chinese trade agreement, yet we eat it up like Fat kids in a candy store... From the consumer, who loves to catch a deal at walmart and costco, to the megacorps, like apple that can hire a company that litterally drives people to jump to their deaths off out of their office windows.

On every level and in every way... america is addicted to chinese products.

Just for clarity, I'll point out that, at the FoxConn factory where Apple stuff is made (as well as XBox, Wii, Microsoft peripherals & Zune, Dell Computers and many other tech products) the suicide rate is actually lower than within the US populace.

But you're right, we in the west ARE addicted to cheap Chinese products. If Apple were to produce iPads in the US, with US labour and associated health benefits etc, a $500 ipad would probably cost a thousand bucks.

 

[BostonPirate]

Just for clarity, I'll point out that, at the FoxConn factory where Apple stuff is made (as well as XBox, Wii, Microsoft peripherals & Zune, Dell Computers and many other tech products) the suicide rate is actually lower than within the US populace.

But you're right, we in the west ARE addicted to cheap Chinese products. If Apple were to produce iPads in the US, with US labour and associated health benefits etc, a $500 ipad would probably cost a thousand bucks.

I don't know of Eight office buildings in america that laborers have jumped out of to their deaths in suicidal fits.

And yeah.. thats the problem. We all really do want cheap nice stuff. We are all willing to look away for that reason. I dont think we will ever change that. I guess I just believe in the power of american greed. Don't like the idea of it intellectually, but I never even flinch when I'm out shopping.

Not even on the radar of being on the radar.

 

[andysayshi]

I don't know of Eight office buildings in america that laborers have jumped out of to their deaths in suicidal fits.

Eight office buildings? Foxconn employs over 800,000 people. At the single facility where iPads, iPhones, XBox and Wii are made, there are 400,000 workers. It's bigger than most European cities!

I've commented on this an older thread, but here's a quote from myself:

Foxconn employs 800,000 people in mainland China. 11 suicides in 6 months equates to an annual suicide rate of 2.75 per 100,000. The annual suicide rate in the US is around 11 per 100,000. So the suicide rate at Foxconn China is significantly lower than the general rate in the US. It's reasonable to assume that any company that employs almost a million people will experience a wide range of social issues amongst its employees that may or may not have anything to do with the workplace.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308728&highlight=foxconn

And yeah.. thats the problem. We all really do want cheap nice stuff. We are all willing to look away for that reason. I dont think we will ever change that. I guess I just believe in the power of american greed. Don't like the idea of it intellectually, but I never even flinch when I'm out shopping.

Not even on the radar of being on the radar.

I'm the same. When we have discussions like this, I feel guilt at the reality of such truths. But I'll probably be buying an iPad2 in a few weeks like every other gadget junkie. :-(

 

[JB3]

Thanks for letting me know. My point (which you missed) is the he is in the Senate, responsible for life and death decisions. I'm concerned.

Why? The man is a walking fossil, and you're shocked he doesn't know that iPads and iPhones are made in China? He probably needs a kid to operate his for him.

Besides, this is the sort of shrill, partisan, horse-shit that has come to dominate politics today. You can have substantive policy differences with the man (and there are many issues with him), but focusing on this? Come on, you're better than that.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't know of Eight office buildings in america that laborers have jumped out of to their deaths in suicidal fits.

And yeah.. thats the problem. We all really do want cheap nice stuff. We are all willing to look away for that reason. I dont think we will ever change that. I guess I just believe in the power of american greed. Don't like the idea of it intellectually, but I never even flinch when I'm out shopping.

Not even on the radar of being on the radar.

With the ratcheting down of incomes in the U.S., many people have no choice but to buy at the lowest price -- when we can buy at all.It's a tragedy that so many people but the newest gadget whenever it comes out and give no thought at all to people who can't even afford a used one two versions old.

 

[BostonPirate]

Eight office buildings? Foxconn employs over 800,000 people. At the single facility where iPads, iPhones, XBox and Wii are made, there are 400,000 workers. It's bigger than most European cities!

I've commented on this an older thread, but here's a quote from myself:



http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308728&highlight=foxconn



I'm the same. When we have discussions like this, I feel guilt at the reality of such truths. But I'll probably be buying an iPad2 in a few weeks like every other gadget junkie. :-(

wow

So if Apple products were produced in america they could bring 400,000 jobs to america...

Thats like one quarter of the amount bush created for the economy in eight years. We need to rescind Chinas most favored trading nation status, place a progressive tarrif on products that deviate from a global living wage, and level the feild. We need to stop borrowing money from China, and we need to pay down the debt we owe them with the tarrifs we charge on the goods they import in using unfair labor practices.

China has no economy without this nation, and we need to stop letting them dictate so many terms in negotiations.

We are paying 1 trillion annually on loan payments to the debt. paying off half the debt would kill half a trillion dollars of deficit spending. But we need a clinton surplus to pull that off.

We had our opportunity to do this, and Bush blew it by sending cash out to all of america as rebates, and he ran deficits never seen before and two wars off the budget. his deficits dont relfect just how massive his contribution to the debt really was.

our interest payment in 2012 is going to be 1 trillion and our deficit will be running at a projected 1.1 trillion if the congress can't reach a compromise.

I am now leaning towards the belief that 2011 will be a year that the gov't parses out its entire budget in stopgap bill after stopgap bill. THese things seem to be the only spending bills that we can get through right now.

I don't even know how the CBO would classify that mess for its annual report.

Bottom line? people need jobs and fair labor practices needs to be a consideration when making trade treaties not the lowest bidder.

 

[Keelandson]

He's an asshole.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ 400,000 jobs at $20/year.

China's due for a revolution of their own, between piss-poor working conditions/standards, quality of life issues, and the fact that the next generation of Chinese is going to have 100 million more men than women (huge male-dominated gender gaps preceded many of the civil wars in South America and the Middle East)

Chinese bottom wages are upwards of 80 cents an hour now, so you're off by a factor of 100 -- those $400,000 jobs are at upwards of $2,000/year. Projections from the Chinese themselves expect that to jump by up to 50% by the end of this year, because they have little excess labor capacity left. I expect those 400,000 jobs to be at $2500/year this year, and wouldn't be surprised if they hit $3000/yr a year later.

Add in shipping costs, and it's already cheaper to build things in Mexico.

 

[levenshulme31]

Just for clarity, I'll point out that, at the FoxConn factory where Apple stuff is made (as well as XBox, Wii, Microsoft peripherals & Zune, Dell Computers and many other tech products) the suicide rate is actually lower than within the US populace.

But you're right, we in the west ARE addicted to cheap Chinese products. If Apple were to produce iPads in the US, with US labour and associated health benefits etc, a $500 ipad would probably cost a thousand bucks.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...give_Apple_room_to_cut_prices_says_researcher

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone/

Actually if they reduced the profit margin they make by manufacturing in China they could easily afford to manufacture in the US, thereby creating much needed jobs - and all the associated knock-on benefits of not having high unemployment.

Problem is that Wall St demands profit maximisation at all cost. The real long term social cost doesn't figure on the balance sheet so it doesn't get a look in.

It always makes my blood boil when a company makes $500 million one year then is portrayed as being in the shit if they only make $450 million the next year.

 

[BostonPirate]

the problem with that little scenario is that the CEOs and CFOs are aware that if you project a quarter with lower profits, you will lose value on the stock market.

 

[MoltenRock III]

LMAO! Is it really any surprise to anyone that these moron Senators with (R's) behind their names haven't a clue on the basics in the world, much less know how to actually create new jobs in America? The US voted these asshats into power in the House, and lookey what they've achieved..... absolutely, positively, fucking, nothing! Zero! Zip! Nadda! Nothin! How pathetic! If any so called "Republican" on this board thinks this country has improved because of electing (R's), they really do need to seek mental help.

 

[Kulindahr]

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...give_Apple_room_to_cut_prices_says_researcher

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/03/02/what-doth-it-profit-an-iphone/

Actually if they reduced the profit margin they make by manufacturing in China they could easily afford to manufacture in the US, thereby creating much needed jobs - and all the associated knock-on benefits of not having high unemployment.

Problem is that Wall St demands profit maximisation at all cost. The real long term social cost doesn't figure on the balance sheet so it doesn't get a look in.

It always makes my blood boil when a company makes $500 million one year then is portrayed as being in the shit if they only make $450 million the next year.

That's why our corporation taxes should be based on the number of jobs a company has over seas. with a formula like B% + C%(%N) + K%(%O), a base percentage plus another percentage times the portion of the companies jobs overseas.

B% = base percentage
C% = percentage rate for jobs in
%N = portion of jobs in neighboring countries (Canada and Mexico)
K% = percentage rate for jobs in
%O = portion of jobs overseas

The idea with C% and %N is that prosperity in our immediate neighbors will benefit our prosperity far more than jobs overseas. So, for example:


WidgetWizards, Inc., has 30% of its jobs in the U.S., 25% in neighboring countries, and 45% of its jobs overseas. Let B% = 5%, C% = 10%, and K% = 30%. So WW, Inc., would pay 5% on 30% of its income, 10% on 25% of its income, and 30% on 45% of its income. I would hope the differences would cause companies to at least move their operations to Mexico or possibly Canada, and -- even better -- back home.

McCain couldn't even do the math, I betcha.

 

[BostonPirate]

I am assuming you are trying to set a Tarrif structure for NAFTA and China, to insure the NAFTA nations get the edge

B% + C%(%N) + K%(%O)

B% = base percentage
C% = percentage rate for jobs in
%N = portion of jobs in neighboring countries (Canada and Mexico)
K% = percentage rate for jobs in
%O = portion of jobs overseas

That equation would get you the effect you desire if you stipulate N<O.

That stipulation could be codified, but as we all know, regulations are subject to either the legislature or the executive office, perhaps treasury sec. or the fed.

So it can be reversed if arizona, a likely player, says it caused too much illegal immigration.

It would be better to set the value of N differently, and to use this streamlined formula...

(C%+N%)D
C = Flat tax rate
N = portion of jobs in Nafta treaty nations.
D = Distance designated by time zones from american borders.

legislate that exemptions on any value of this formula can only be given to nations that file income tax and list their headquarters within american borders, or by treaties ratified by congress.