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Men arrested for burning Koran

The freedom of speech argument always reminds me of the sort of parent who allows their child to run amok in a restaurant and if confronted will claim "they're only expressing themselves!".

Nevermind that they are ruining the experience for everyone else or that they are putting themselves and others in danger.

Of course if the child then trips a waiter and is scalded with boiling water the same parent will be first in line at the claims court.
 
The freedom of speech argument always reminds me of the sort of parent who allows their child to run amok in a restaurant and if confronted will claim "they're only expressing themselves!".

Nevermind that they are ruining the experience for everyone else or that they are putting themselves and others in danger.

Of course if the child then trips a waiter and is scalded with boiling water the same parent will be first in line at the claims court.

I don't know if you realize this or not (along with a few other posters) but you can't continue to say whatever you like and disturb other people in a closed environment like that in this country. So, no, that is not the same thing.
 
See, this is the problem. That's a very American way of thinking. We think in a very different way.

I understand that. There are many things I'd change about this country. But not that.

When I heard the Blasphemy was still illegal in the UK, I was appalled that such an archaic mindset still existed in what I thought to be an even more progressive country than mine.

And now this happens... Like I said earlier, if I want to burn a book and put it online, I should be able to do so. Otherwise, let me start a Dr. Seuss religion so we can prosecute anyone who burns Green Eggs And Ham.
 
When I heard the Blasphemy was still illegal in the UK, I was appalled that such an archaic mindset still existed in what I thought to be an even more progressive country than mine.

The ancient blasphemy laws in the UK were repealed in 2008. They were effectively replaced by the Racial & Religious Hatred Act 2006. This case would not have been covered by blashemy laws which only ever protected Christianity. And these men, if charged (which I doubt), will be accused not of offending Islam, but of inciting hatred, which is an important distinction.
 
The ancient blasphemy laws in the UK were repealed in 2008. They were effectively replaced by the Racial & Religious Hatred Act 2006. This case would not have been covered by blashemy laws which only ever protected Christianity. And these men, if charged (which I doubt), will be accused not of offending Islam, but of inciting hatred, which is an important distinction.

Well that's good to know, if it does indeed make any difference. However, I still think they have every right to burn whatever book they choose and make a video about it. It's not like they're talking about killing Muslims or anything of the sort.

And this works both ways. If someone wanted to burn a book about equality for LGBT people (which would personally offend me), and film it, then I think they have the right.
 
Well that's good to know, if it does indeed make any difference. However, I still think they have every right to burn whatever book they choose and make a video about it. It's not like they're talking about killing Muslims or anything of the sort.

And this works both ways. If someone wanted to burn a book about equality for LGBT people (which would personally offend me), and film it, then I think they have the right.

Hrm, I don't think this debate is getting anywhere. :(

Your analogy doesn't work here (mine usually don't either :rolleyes:) - we do not worship a book about our sexuality. We do not base our sexuality upon the laws of this book. We don't require that this book is placed in a high, clean place. I don't think you appreciate how important this book is to Muslims. It's even more important to them than a crucifix is to a Christian. They simply ask that you don't damage the book.
 
Hrm, I don't think this debate is getting anywhere. :(

Sadly it isn't. The way I see it, though, there is a lot of misdirected support here. There's a huge double standard going on. The supposed rights of the Qur'an burners are being protected where the rights do not exist.

There is an enormous difference between Free Speech and Hate Speech. Canada and Britain recognise that difference and have done something about it to protect those against whom the speech is directed. We may have lost a minuscule portion of our rights, but every single Canadian lost the very same rights. Nobody, not even our government officials, not even our prime minister, have the right to preach hatred to us nor to anyone else - Canadian or non-Canadian alike. We have gained so much more than we have lost. We (as gay people) are first-class citizens with all the rights belonging to our fellow Canadians.

How can that be a bad thing?
 
Hrm, I don't think this debate is getting anywhere. :(

Your analogy doesn't work here (mine usually don't either :rolleyes:) - we do not worship a book about our sexuality. We do not base our sexuality upon the laws of this book. We don't require that this book is placed in a high, clean place. I don't think you appreciate how important this book is to Muslims. It's even more important to them than a crucifix is to a Christian. They simply ask that you don't damage the book.

Religion is entitled to levels of respect that are seen nowhere else. That's what I have a problem with.
 
Religion is entitled to levels of respect that are seen nowhere else. That's what I have a problem with.

Only because religion requires things that nobody else requires, such as respect for a book.

Somebody pushes me over. So? Somebody pushes over a man with a broken leg. People take a lot more of an interest. This isn't fair. We're talking about respect for a fellow man. It's etiquette. What do I lose by respecting a book? They're not stopping me from going anywhere or doing anything other than not damage a book!
 
Only because religion requires things that nobody else requires, such as respect for a book.

Somebody pushes me over. So? Somebody pushes over a man with a broken leg. People take a lot more of an interest. This isn't fair. We're talking about respect for a fellow man. It's etiquette. What do I lose by respecting a book? They're not stopping me from going anywhere or doing anything other than not damage a book!

Unfortunately, not everybody views religion as you do. Not everybody feels it deserves the level of respect that it often gets. This isn't an issue of etiquette or manners in any way.

And speaking of false analogies... Lol. Unless religious people are mentally handicapped and should not be treated like everyone else, then burn away if you want to make a statement.

Many people do not agree with what religious books say. Another way of saying that is that they even take offense to what the books say. So why are we not respecting those people by criminalizing the printing and selling of these books?

You ask what you lose by respecting a book? Well what do you lose by letting someone protest a book by burning it?
 
I don't view any religious book as holy and thus should not be required in any way to respect it. It's not a human, it shouldn't have special rights.
 
I don't view any religious book as holy and thus should not be required in any way to respect it. It's not a human, it shouldn't have special rights.

The same, then, could apply to your constitution. Do you respect that?

A tornado isn't human, either, but I give it a hell of a lot of respect. Sometimes things need to be respected simply because of what they represent.
 
Unfortunately, not everybody views religion as you do. Not everybody feels it deserves the level of respect that it often gets. This isn't an issue of etiquette or manners in any way.

I would very vehemently disagree with you here, and I really believe that most others would back me here. In terms of things that don't impact upon anyone else, it is very much a case of empathy. If I truly believe that a spirit exists that requires that I eat a hamburger every day, nobody will stop me from doing that. If I really want to wear a bandana everywhere, unless it conflicts with uniform rules then I'm perfectly allowed to do this. If I carry a plastic frog around with me, nobody can take it off me without good reason. The only reason someone would want to stop me from doing any of these things is to spite me.

Fine, that's a bit of an airy fairy example, but I don't know any other way to explain this. There's no reason someone would want to burn the Qur'an without offending anyone. Hence, this is a deliberate attack on the Islamic faith, and I believe that is very wrong.

And speaking of false analogies... Lol. Unless religious people are mentally handicapped and should not be treated like everyone else, then burn away if you want to make a statement.

Eh? Look, I don't give up my seat on the bus for any religious person, but I will respect them in their own ways. Personally, sticking with the Muslim theme, I don't like people wearing burkas around, I find it rather unsettling, but I respect their right to wear them.

And yeah, they're making an offensive statement. This is what's wrong....

(And by your writing style I can see what sort of person you are, I'm not going to make much ground here because we're very different people with very different views.)

Many people do not agree with what religious books say. Another way of saying that is that they even take offense to what the books say. So why are we not respecting those people by criminalizing the printing and selling of these books?

Disagreeing =/= taking offence.

You ask what you lose by respecting a book? Well what do you lose by letting someone protest a book by burning it?

This isn't a case of logic from their point of view. It's a case of rules. And actually they would see the burning of a Qur'an as an attack on Allah.

I don't view any religious book as holy and thus should not be required in any way to respect it. It's not a human, it shouldn't have special rights.

Ok, let's distinguish between respecting and disrespecting then. You don't have to respect the book, you don't have to buy one, look after it, treat it in any special way. But don't deliberately get one just to destroy it, that just makes you a massive jerk.

This really just seems like a boy jumping up and down on grass that has a "no walking" sign on it just to prove that he can.
 
I would very vehemently disagree with you here, and I really believe that most others would back me here. In terms of things that don't impact upon anyone else, it is very much a case of empathy. If I truly believe that a spirit exists that requires that I eat a hamburger every day, nobody will stop me from doing that. If I really want to wear a bandana everywhere, unless it conflicts with uniform rules then I'm perfectly allowed to do this. If I carry a plastic frog around with me, nobody can take it off me without good reason. The only reason someone would want to stop me from doing any of these things is to spite me.

In what way did they try to stop them from practicing their religion? They didn't. What you're talking about is completely different.

Fine, that's a bit of an airy fairy example, but I don't know any other way to explain this. There's no reason someone would want to burn the Qur'an without offending anyone. Hence, this is a deliberate attack on the Islamic faith, and I believe that is very wrong.

Ok.

And yeah, they're making an offensive statement. This is what's wrong....

Do you really think it's a good idea to criminalize all offensive statements?

(And by your writing style I can see what sort of person you are, I'm not going to make much ground here because we're very different people with very different views.)

Likewise.

Disagreeing =/= taking offence.

How would you know they didn't take offense?

This isn't a case of logic from their point of view. It's a case of rules. And actually they would see the burning of a Qur'an as an attack on Allah.

I got that. Doesn't mean I want laws put into place that prevent me from making a political/religious statement so as to prevent them from being offended by it.
Ok, let's distinguish between respecting and disrespecting then. You don't have to respect the book, you don't have to buy one, look after it, treat it in any special way. But don't deliberately get one just to destroy it, that just makes you a massive jerk.

So? Why should that be a criminal offense? Simply being a 'massive jerk' in someone's opinion doesn't warrant an arrest last time I checked.

This really just seems like a boy jumping up and down on grass that has a "no walking" sign on it just to prove that he can.

Apparently you don't understand the concept of protest.
 
The same, then, could apply to your constitution. Do you respect that?

A tornado isn't human, either, but I give it a hell of a lot of respect. Sometimes things need to be respected simply because of what they represent.

I very much do. And if a country legislates the burning of its constitution or flag as treason, I understand that. Though I still don't think it should be illegal to do so in protest.

The difference here is that we don't live under a theocracy (do you?). Holy books should not have any special privileges under the law. You know, because of the whole separation of church and state, or something silly like that... :rolleyes:
 
The difference here is that we don't live under a theocracy (do you?).

No, I do not, and I live in a country where the church is separate from the state. Our church doesn't have the government by the balls.

You mentioned burning of the American flag as a protest. Seems to me that there was such a furore when photos and videos of American flags being burned in the Middle-East in protest to America's nose-butting-in tactics.

Or is that different?

(By the way, are you sure you don't live under a theocracy? Everything seems to revolve around the Christian God.)
 
Hrm, I don't think this debate is getting anywhere. :(

Your analogy doesn't work here (mine usually don't either :rolleyes:) - we do not worship a book about our sexuality. We do not base our sexuality upon the laws of this book. We don't require that this book is placed in a high, clean place. I don't think you appreciate how important this book is to Muslims. It's even more important to them than a crucifix is to a Christian. They simply ask that you don't damage the book.


SO ... muslims all over the world can enjoy freedom of expression by burning the US flag ....

BUT ...

no one can touch THEIR symbols? ... bullshit .... bullshit .... and more BULLSHIT

exactly what you said (in my bolded emphasis) applies to MY ... OUR ... respect for our national symbol ... does RESPECT stop them from carrying out their own burnings? ... NO

and google "muslims burn bible" and you get hits like these:

"Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses"

"Muslims burn Bible in Pakistan"

Now ... ask the question: do I want to see tit-for-tat? NO I don't. BUT RESPECT MUST COME FROM BOTH SIDES .... AND IT DOESN'T

i for one am thankful i live in a country in which (so far) i have freedom of speech (which does translate to freedom of expression) ... as long as i don't incite violence or violent overthrow of the government

i believe that the tenents written into the US Constitution ... are exactly the reason the founders of the USA left their european countries to start a new concept of political freedom based on individual rights ... not dictated allowances

now if we can just keep our "leaders" from fucking things up even farther than has recently been done.....

sheesh
 
why can't the police arrest anyone who telling lies about religious miracles ?
 
Burning the Koran was in insult to all Muslims. When will people realize that acts like those of 9/11 and 7/7 were acts of terrorists, not of Muslims?
These guys should be charged with a hate crime because that's what it was.

if all religious fanatics (all faiths) being charged with hate crimes, problems solved !!!
 
No, I do not, and I live in a country where the church is separate from the state. Our church doesn't have the government by the balls.

You mentioned burning of the American flag as a protest. Seems to me that there was such a furore when photos and videos of American flags being burned in the Middle-East in protest to America's nose-butting-in tactics.

Or is that different?

(By the way, are you sure you don't live under a theocracy? Everything seems to revolve around the Christian God.)

Haha that made me giggle. No, technically I do not. The U.S. is way too religious for my taste though.

I don't really understand where you get off assuming I have some unwavering devotion and blind loyalty to the U.S. government just because I live here. :rolleyes: Your post implies that.

Was I the one making a fuss over Middle-Easterners burning the U.S. flag? Do you have a single instance where I was? Do I seem to support that outrage yet not this one?
 
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