Minimum wage increase revisited

[Dominus]

This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge that poverty isn't just a result of "lazy potheads."

It is incredible that you are still throwing out the usual strawman. It really would help if you actually make your arguments against what people actually say.

Poor people are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen in my life. There is never any doubt of that. Single mom has to work 2-3 jobs to support 3-4 kids from 3-4 different fathers. That's a lot of hard work.

The fact of the matter is poor people aren't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because of the decisions that they have made in their lives THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.

Look, hard work alone will not get anyone ahead in life. I can be a ditch digger and dig ditches 16 hours a day. That's a lot of hard work. Doesn't mean my ditch digging gig is worth much nowadays.

Single motherhood is a great predictor of perpetual poverty. Dropping out of high school is another one. Using payday loans. Using organizations that charges up to 10% to cash a check instead of using free means like a checking account. I can sit here all day naming bad decisions that are prevalent in the lower class community that ultimately are against their self interest THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

Can't even begin to come up with any solution if we keep trying to argue against strawmen.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

It is incredible that you are still throwing out the usual strawman. It really would help if you actually make your arguments against what people actually say.

Poor people are some of the hardest workers I have ever seen in my life. There is never any doubt of that. Single mom has to work 2-3 jobs to support 3-4 kids from 3-4 different fathers. That's a lot of hard work.

The fact of the matter is poor people aren't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because of the decisions that they have made in their lives THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.

Look, hard work alone will not get anyone ahead in life. I can be a ditch digger and dig ditches 16 hours a day. That's a lot of hard work. Doesn't mean my ditch digging gig is worth much nowadays.

Single motherhood is a great predictor of perpetual poverty. Dropping out of high school is another one. Using payday loans. Using organizations that charges up to 10% to cash a check instead of using free means like a checking account. I can sit here all day naming bad decisions that are prevalent in the lower class community that ultimately are against their self interest THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

Can't even begin to come up with any solution if we keep trying to argue against strawmen.

Are you two the same person? You responded as if I was talking to/about you.

 

[peeonme]

Are you two the same person? You responded as if I was talking to/about you.

Kind of like your cohorts do you mean?
There are a lot of lazy people that have never burned one.

 

[Dominus]

@Fabulala Don't play dumb. In the past everytime you and I had a convo about this you always pulled out the typical strawman. I have never said poor people are lazy. I don't believe for a moment that peeonme would ever say poor people are lazy. Everybody knows for the most part that is simply not true. Everybody knows poor people work very very hard with their low wage jobs to keep their heads above water. From what I have seen from peeon, he and I both have been emphasizing a combination of bad choices and lack of ambition.

 

[peeonme]

People that set around and complain and do nothing to help themselves are lazy, lazy, lazy. Hell, I am not talking about blacks, per se. This describes the folks that I grew up with, wring your hands and wish in one pile, shit in the other and see which gets full the quickest. The working poor are not lazy as a whole, but you can find laziness where ever you find people. I found laziness to be a natural human characteristic in my own life, I gave myself some very firm kicks to the ass many times. It's too hot to cut the grass, nope, bull shit, cut it. I don't feel up to fixing my car, would you rather walk?

I know that I come across as some angry old fart, all I can say is that some things piss me off. The "i can't' attitude is one of those things, perhaps the biggest of them. I never cut my self any slack and I can respect 'tried and failed', not 'never tried'.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I don't believe for a moment that peeonme would ever say poor people are lazy.

That's funny because he's said it numerous times. In. This. Thread.

From what I have seen from peeon, he and I both have been emphasizing a combination of bad choices and lack of ambition.

I konw, Reagan taught yall well, your contempt for the lower class shines through and through.

But I know what this is. Some people who come from humble beginnings develop this chip on their shoulder towards other poor people, especially those who use govt assistance. That contempt that you insist is imaginary is well-documented on every. singe. page. of this thread. Nice try bootz.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

People that set around and complain and do nothing to help themselves are lazy, lazy, lazy.

What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.

 

[peeonme]

What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.

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Re: Minimum wage increase revisited

Quote Originally Posted by peeonme View Post
Their is no doubt that the worker has been screwed by both parties, the worker is not represented and as much as it hurts, Trump tapped in to that.

This is the first time I've ever seen you acknowledge that poverty isn't just a result of "lazy potheads."

You brought up 'lazy' in post 60, I was responding to you, why did you mention lazy in a thread about minimum wage???

 

[peeonme]

What does this have to do with paying people a livable wage? Oh. Right. Notta damn thang. Strike two bootz.

Now, let me ask, what is a livable wage? How many hours should a person work to obtain this? Can a person work part time and complain that they are poor, when full time work is available? Should all people be guaranteed a certain amount of money regardless of if they work or not?

People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Should all people be guaranteed a certain amount of money regardless of if they work or not?

People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.

Do you not know what a wage is or are you assuming that I don't? A wage is payment earned by an employee from an employee which explicitly implies that the fucking person will be.... sit down...... wait for it.... WORKING.

This "if they work" then again.... "IF they work" gives me the slightest impression that you think I want people to just get money just for the fuck-all of it, without earning or working for it. So let's try the non-racist approach where you give my intelligence and integrity the benefit of the doubt that a livable wage [again, which implies paycheck which implies work] is ONLY being offered for people who are... ya know, uhhhh.... working. Cuz, listen to THIS madness...... I have a work ethic and I support others who do too.

Shocking, I know right? We value hard work too. Who woulda thunk?

 

[gsdx]

People should be paid a livable wage, if they work for it.

As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?

I'm still trying to figure out why he keeps stressing "work" like we just wanna "It Could Happen To You," get in a hot air balloon and just rain free money down on the peoples.

 

[TickTockMan]

As I mentioned above, how do you determine a 'liveable wage'? Upon whose 'cost of living index' would you base it? It all becomes very complicated when a wage may be liveable in an average town but would be 'barely squeaking by' in a larger city.

Canadian provinces and territories set their own minimum wages. Is it the same for individual states in the US?

Yes. And I may be wrong, but cities and towns can have an even high wage if they want.

 

[peeonme]

Right now the Fed. m.w. is 7.25, it does vary from one state to another. https://www.minimum-wage.org/wage-by-state. The highest I saw was California 11.00, that pay will not help you get by in any state with out some help. A livable or fair wage would almost have to be regional.

 

[opinterph]

poor people … have been psychologically conditioned to stay poor. It's called learned helplessness.

poor people … have been given very bad info and they make those bad decisions based on those bad info.

I’d like to learn more about this. Please explain.

 

[peeonme]

Do you not know what a wage is or are you assuming that I don't? A wage is payment earned by an employee from an employee which explicitly implies that the fucking person will be.... sit down...... wait for it.... WORKING.

This "if they work" then again.... "IF they work" gives me the slightest impression that you think I want people to just get money just for the fuck-all of it, without earning or working for it. So let's try the non-racist approach where you give my intelligence and integrity the benefit of the doubt that a livable wage [again, which implies paycheck which implies work] is ONLY being offered for people who are... ya know, uhhhh.... working. Cuz, listen to THIS madness...... I have a work ethic and I support others who do too.

Shocking, I know right? We value hard work too. Who woulda thunk?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income
The reason I specified work for it. Drop the racist bull shit. You are back on ignore, everything is not about you and your color, get over it.

 

[Dominus]

I’d like to learn more about this. Please explain.

Are you handing me the rope to hang myself?

What more do I have to say about learned helplessness? Just google it if you don't know what it is. I have observed behavior in poor people over and over that demonstrate this. Poor people are also uninformed on a lot of things, like compounded interest and checking account for free cashing of checks. This makes them perfect victims for overzealous salesmen and predatory lenders. It is very expensive to be poor.

I once had a young homeless man sleeping on my couch. To get him started on having a stable job that he could support himself with, I offered to get him a job in construction. He was very excited. So I talked to HR and have them call him in. Laboring job, nothing too difficult. They could not leave any message because he did not have his voicemail setup. I bugged him for several days before he set up his voicemail. Then I told the hr lady to call again. Still nothing. He had conveniently lost his phone. Ok, I said, I'll drive you in in a couple days and have you do the paperwork there. I really thought he needed some motivation. I told him all he needed was his ID. Well, the day before I was going to take him in, he conveniently lost his wallet. I think that was the perfect demonstration of learned helplessness and self sabotage to keep his current status.

There was another guy that I took in for a few months. He got a job at this factory. Got a regular income. I'm actually very proud of him as he is now self reliant and lives in his own apartment. While he was staying with me, I taught him all I could and found he had many misconceptions. He did not know his rights. He did not know how to handle money. And he had no idea he could cash his checks for free at certain places. He always thought losing 10% to cash the check at places like payday lenders was the norm.

I'm guessing you're looking for me to post some right winger rant about how lazy poor people are? It is so easy to demonize those who dare to question the current system. The current school system does nothing to prepare kids for the real world. Why the hell does little Jimmy need to memorize the names of various cloud formations instead of how to open a checking account?

I say neither the mainstream left nor the mainstream right want to actually help the poor. The right keep forwarding the narrative that poor people are lazy. The left keep blaming past social injustices without proposing any real solution.

 

[opinterph]

Are you handing me the rope to hang myself?

Who or what is performing the psychological conditioning of the poor and who or what is providing poor people with very bad information?

Is it the school system alone or something else?

 

[Dominus]

Who or what is performing the psychological conditioning of the poor and who or what is providing poor people with very bad information?

Is it the school system alone or something else?

I don't have all the answers. I suspect the bad info was disseminated by the previous generation. Hence generational poor.

The psychological conditioning of learned helplessness I suspect is also passed down from generation to generation. Here is an extreme example to make my point.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2017/06/02/generations-disabled/?utm_term=.9a3c99297d4d

Imagine a kid growing up observing that they are always poor even though his mom works very hard at 2 different jobs. And as far as he knows, he has no father. When he goes to school, his school makes him memorize useless info like geological formations and the shapes of clouds. How do you think he will turn out?

 

[opinterph]

I suspect

That's what I wanted to know.

How do you think he will turn out?

I didn't look at the linked example, but I think cloud formations are a legitimate subject of interest.