Muslims. How do people feel about them?

[TX-Beau]

I have as much respect for Islam as it has for me.

And I have as much respect for Christianity as it has for me, and Hinduism, and Buddhism, and frikkin' crystal waving new age hippies.

All religious bigotry is the problem, be it Muslim, Hindu, or fuckin' white supremacist, gay hating Christian Identity very American gay haters in Idaho.

 

[zoltanspawn]

I recently watched A Jihad for Love. Here's a trailer:



It's a heartbreaking documentary, but made clear to me how our issue isn't simple.

 

[Sha-Rok]

Same shit, different prophet.

 

[BearSalam]

The Islamic position on homosexuality has become one of the most sensitive issues facing Muslims living in the West, particularly in Europe.

It is being held up as the key to any eventual “integration” of Muslims into Western culture, as if European culture and values could be reduced to the simple fact of accepting homosexuality. The contours of this de facto European culture is in a state of constant flux, shifting according to the topic of the day. Just as some insist, as do the Pope and certain intellectuals—often dogmatic and exclusivist defenders of the Enlightenment that Europe’s roots are Greek and Christian (thus excluding Muslims), so several homosexual spokesman and the politicians who support them are now declaring (with an identical rejection of Muslims) that the “integration of Muslims” depends on their acceptance of homosexuality????!!!!!!

The contradiction is a serious one: does Christianity, which forms the root structure of European culture, and which purports to embody European values and identity, not condemn homosexuality? NO. Unless the contradiction is intended to stigmatize Islam and Muslims by presenting them as “the Other”… without fear of self-contradiction...

its true that monotheistic religions refute homosexuality. (islam, judaism..etc...) not islam alone. and don't present islam as if it was the evil one rejecting that.

i'm homosexual, a gay hairy arab bear living in morocco and i can say to all of you. accepting homosexuality or homophobia depends on the individual (whatever he was muslim, buddhist or...)

 

[Deandbn]

I dont actually feel anything about them!!

All I need to say is:-

If you're not a muslim, then you are an infidel.

If you're not one of them, then you are an enemy of theirs.

That tells you everything.

 

[BearSalam]

I dont actually feel anything about them!!

All I need to say is:-

If you're not a muslim, then you are an infidel.

If you're not one of them, then you are an enemy of theirs.

That tells you everything.

i'm a muslim, you are not an infidel, nor my enemy. how do you feel now?

where did you get this hatred from?

 

[Deandbn]

i'm a muslim, you are not an infidel, nor my enemy. how do you feel now?

where did you get this hatred from?

Thank you for you kind words mister, much appreciated.

But with all due respect, I am sure you understand that there is no grey area. Either you are a muslim, or you are not a muslim. There is no place for fence sitting.

I do not have hatred, you are the one that used the word not me.

All I know is that I have lived in this city my whole life, that is 57 years now, with at least 500,000 to 1 million muslims in the city's population, i am not sure how many but a lot, in fact the highest concentration of indians outside of india/pakistan. And do you know that i have never managed to make a friend of a muslim yet. Hindu's yes but moslem's no. It is frowned upon (by their elders) for them to be seen socializing with white people, except for business.

Another thing i should say is that their religion defines them as a group as well as their dress. The guys wear their white pyjamas and the women black pyjamas everywhere that is most noticable. I am not religous so religion does not affect me.

 

[BearSalam]

Thank you for you kind words mister, much appreciated.

You don't really need to thank me brother, its something i believe most of people share. whether they are muslims, christians, atheists...etc..depends on the person really. his level of being sociable and his mentality surely

But with all due respect, I am sure you understand that there is no grey area. Either you are a muslim, or you are not a muslim. There is no place for fence sitting.

I appologise mister but i'm not sure i can understand what you just say. it is really important not to accept this simplistic division, where the Muslims who are saying what we want them to say are the moderates and all the others are the fundamentalists. The Muslim community is as complex as, say, the Christian community and we have different voices. The very moment that you accept and recognise that the 'other' is as complex as you, it means that you are respecting him or her. It is also important for Muslims from all schools of thought to take a clear stance on the idea that Islam means 'against the West'. We have people, ideologists, using Islam in that way and they are playing exactly the game of the neo-cons on the other side, with their perception that there is one civilisation against the other. Both extremes are nurturing this new ideology of fear. And it's up to us all, Muslims but also others (from all house of thoughts) in the West, to understand that we are fighting two or more extremisms that are nurturing each other.
what you say right now is talking about someone rigid, not open, sectarian and dogmatic(who believe in the power of a group, whether he is christian, muslim, communist etc...) it exists but this is not the definition of a religion my brother.

I do not have hatred, you are the one that used the word not me.

i'm sorry, but you know reading somebody's judgements can lead me interpret them as hateful. but i appologize again. i don't consider them as hateful anymore but stereotypical to be more clear.

All I know is that I have lived in this city my whole life, that is 57 years now, with at least 500,000 to 1 million muslims in the city's population, i am not sure how many but a lot, in fact the highest concentration of indians outside of india/pakistan. And do you know that i have never managed to make a friend of a muslim yet. Hindu's yes but moslem's no. It is frowned upon (by their elders) for them to be seen socializing with white people, except for business.

well, i don't know how you react to misconceptions or generalisations. But, seriously, you know, i've been living in beirut for a couple of years. The city i was in was full of druze people. they wern't sociable with us and with everybody i recall. But luckily, i'm don't consider all druze people like that. i can make difference and i know that people are people, i didn't judge them from their faith. and i met in the future other druze in other countries that still are very closed friends to mine. i didn't say "grey area" or "druze" or "not druze".
OF COURSE.

Another thing i should say is that their religion defines them as a group as well as their dress. The guys wear their white pyjamas and the women black pyjamas everywhere that is most noticable. I am not religous so religion does not affect me.

you talk about traditions and not religion here. religions don't make wear something, it makes you believe in something, certain ethics and way of life. i don't know how these people were "indians or...", but i can say that this is not the definition of islam my bro. i live in a muslim country and there is no spcific wearing for a group or for such a thing.
or maybe their conception of life for some defines them like that. maybe you are talking about "salafis". who are a small group of muslims who are traditionalists (who wants to live by their own ). they even exist in my country and they even don't socialise with us muslims .

i'm not very religious as well but i really don't appreciate the way you threw those american paki/indian muslims you have met in one and only box which is islam. they don't represent islam or muslims . they represent themselfs.

 

[kallipolis]

Happy are those who find fault with themselves instead of finding fault with others. ~Sufi wisdom

 

[zoltanspawn]

Welcome aboard, BearSalam. Nice to have you here, even if like myself you're not very religious. I hope you contribute more. Like most of the world's religions, Islam is under-represented on the forum.

 

[Telstra]

I like Muslims but i don't like islam.

Same can be said about Christians and christianity.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Or gay people and homosexuality.

 

[Telstra]

Welcome aboard, BearSalam. Nice to have you here, even if like myself you're not very religious. I hope you contribute more. Like most of the world's religions, Islam is under-represented on the forum.

umm no, Islam is from Christianity so the teachings are same/similar.


But the culture is different.
Islam = middle eastern culture
Christianity = European culture.

 

[zoltanspawn]

umm no, Islam is from Christianity so the teachings are same/similar.

This is too general of a statement, Telstra.

Also, I doubt any of the folks who talk about their Christianity on this forum would pretend to represent Islam.

 

[bankside]

There is a sort of christian that gets complained about by all kinds of preacher: the "Christmas Christian." Someone who enjoys the tradition, the company, the happy childhood memories of family feasts, and the stained glass, just enough to show up in church at Christmas. And then they get on with their very non-religious lives.

The Equivalent would be, I suppose, an "Eid Muslim."

I like "Christmas Christians" and "Eid Muslims" very much. People who don't take the ramblings of long dead religious poobahs too seriously. This is probably half or more of both the Christian and the Muslim population. You don't get as much chance to notice the Eid Muslims. Because of a few quirks of history, they have less opportunity to make their presence known. But they are there in the hundreds of millions.

There is another segment, which I'll call the "sincere Christians" and the "sincere Muslims." They are maybe 2% of the population. They are scholarly, devout, peaceable, completely mistaken in my view, but very interested in interfaith dialogue and the Grand Debate. I have no problem with them either.

Then you'll find the "militant leftovers." Poorly educated but fervent, certain their faith is divinely correct, even when they fail to understand basic parts of their own religion, utterly offended by different views; they cause no end of trouble for civilized people. They are the reason Samuel Huntington was able to get away with a book like "Clash of Civilisations." They are vile and detestable and I can't wait until they meet the dustbin of history.

Their worst offence is when they pull the wool over the eyes of their fellow "Eid Muslims," or "Christmas Christians" or their sincere believers just long enough to gain sympathy for their ranting. Or perhaps that is the fault of those who fall for it.

And that's what I think of them all.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Shortly after having theorized the existence of the "Eid muslim" you go on to state: "they are there in the hundreds of millions."

This seems to me like you may be generalizing from Christianity (where I'm totes picking up what ya layin down) to Islam.

My question is, is it fair to make this generalization? Does Islam happen the same way everywhere so that there is a broad base of Muslims who merely pay lipservice to some vague habits (as in Christianity)? Or is there a broader current of identity, both cultural and spiritual, which provides a substantial sense of selfhood to Islam's many adherents?

Which populations of Muslims are you familiar enough with to make this sort of observation?

 

[bankside]

I observe it more than theorize it. I observe the muslim people I know. I observe the people I know from muslim families. I listen to the character of the grievances of people in the news who come from nominally muslim countries, and what they bitch about is the same kind of everyday stuff that people bitch about in other non-muslim places. I read books by muslims and ex-muslims about the nature of their communities. I study the governance of countries in the middle east, and maghreb. Admittedly I've skipped Indonesia.

Not that many people are crazy jihadis. (In the western sense of the word.) Identity? The "ummah" has never really panned out in practice. And I think it is amusing to obtain a sense of selfhood from collective speculation about divinity. More to the point, my experience is that many so-called muslims feel the same way. Another analogy would be to people who consider themselves culturally jewish, but not religiously so. Identity can overlap with religion without depending on it.

 

[Deandbn]

I appologise mister but i'm not sure i can understand what you just say.

I said that there were no grey areas in islam, it is black or white (pardon the pun). Either you are a moslem and go to mosque on friday, or you are not a moslem and do not go to mosque on a friday.
And further if one tried to defect from islam, god help you cos they would make your life hell on earth.

YES what i say right now IS.......

what you say right now is talking about someone rigid, not open, sectarian and dogmatic(who believe in the power of a group, whether he is christian, muslim, communist etc...) it exists but this is not the definition of a religion my brother.

and YES this is the definition of the muslim religion.

i'm sorry, but you know reading somebody's judgements can lead me interpret them as hateful. but i appologize again. i don't consider them as hateful anymore but stereotypical to be more clear.

you talk about traditions and not religion here. religions don't make wear something, it makes you believe in something, certain ethics and way of life. i don't know how these people were "indians or...", but i can say that this is not the definition of islam my bro. i live in a muslim country and there is no spcific wearing for a group or for such a thing.
or maybe their conception of life for some defines them like that. maybe you are talking about "salafis". who are a small group of muslims who are traditionalists (who wants to live by their own ). they even exist in my country and they even don't socialise with us muslims .

i'm not very religious as well but i really don't appreciate the way you threw those american paki/indian muslims you have met in one and only box which is islam. they don't represent islam or muslims . they represent themselfs.

Once again....
YES I talk about religion, not traditions.
YES they are stereotypical, and rigid, and in a box, and are/were from Paki/India, and YES they are traditionalists. And YES they are indians. And YES the men all wear their little musim beards and little white embroidered skull caps with their white pyjamas in public as a uniform to repesent their religion. And YES they force their women to wear black pyjamas in public.

Please dont bother to appreciate anything on my behalf BRO. I never asked you to and i dont want you to.

Oh, and im not your BRO!!


Dont try water it down BRO cos this is how it is...

 

[Deandbn]

Fascinating stuff... the idea of religion!!

The opium of the people.

 

[BearSalam]

Welcome aboard, BearSalam. Nice to have you here, even if like myself you're not very religious. I hope you contribute more. Like most of the world's religions, Islam is under-represented on the forum.

thanks a lot zoltanspawn. i'm really happy to join all of you here. i hope i can contribute as much i can. I really enjoy the site and the virtual social love here .