My revised outlook on racism in the gay community

[Harke the Boeotarch]

racism is real. i experience it every day, i live with it every day. there are no easy answers. i cant point out easy solutions. and i probably was part of it myself sometimes. but what really makes me angry...




... is when clueless, priviledged people try to dismiss and downplay my experiences, and my pain. i dont understand how people can be so disrespecful of other peoples experiences and pain. it just makes me so angry.

How can I downplay and disrespect your experiences when I don't know what they are?

 

[pat grimshaw]

There was another thread here when a JUBber was seething with his pain.

He told me his pain was caused by his being a minority. And when I quizzed him he said he spent big money to live in another country where he knew he would be living as a minority.

 

[xbuzzerx]

There was another thread here when a JUBber was seething with his pain.

He told me his pain was caused by his being a minority. And when I quizzed him he said he spent big money to live in another country where he knew he would be living as a minority.

Let us recall your exact quote.

You chose it.

I Know that I wouldn't be putting myself through the agony and privation of operating in a country with alien cultures and language. I certainly wouldn't be expecting my hosts to kowtow to my personal needs. And, frankly, I don't believe your first sentence.

In Pat's world, bigoted remarks are entirely your own fault for existing as a minority in a given society... but people are usually lying when they say they hear them at all.

 

[pat grimshaw]

… in a given society...…

That's the issue. Expecting any given society around the world to pander to the emotional needs of an individual's pain.

We live in democracies where the government has to prioritise the needs and the 'pains' of its people.


.

 

[kayman23]

It's definitely real, and definitely part of the gay community. However I consider "a particular guy wasn't interested in me" to be an extremely problematic foundation upon which to base it. There's plenty of more pertinent examples, even here on JUB, but it tends to be in topics most people here are happy to say "Oh I ignored that thread, didn't want to touch it with a 10 foot pole."

Yep, as long there are those that continue to pretend like this is a non-issue is as long as most black gay and bisexuals will continue to ignore the cries of homophobia by the predominately white gay establishment in the US. Read any black LGBT blog and site like BGCLive or Rod 2.0 and those sites' posters display of annoyance and disgust toward this behavior is proof enough.

In other words, racism and racial prejudices will be the ultimate undoing of the LGBT movement in this world...

 

[xbuzzerx]

that's the issue. Expecting any given society around the world to pander to the emotional needs of an individual's pain. We live in democracies where the government has to prioritise the needs and the 'pains' of the people.

"Showing basic civil respect" =/= "pandering to your emotional needs."

Dig deeper.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

^ What thread are you talking about?

 

[hylas]

How can I downplay and disrespect your experiences when I don't know what they are?

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

 

[kayman23]

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

Basically, nobody has time for that type of condescending and dismissive attitude.



Honestly, he would be lucky somebody hasn't already punched him in the face for being such a dick...

 

[refujiunderground]

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

you hit the nail on the head.

 

[pat grimshaw]

…I dont know that hookup sites are the best way to gauge "racism", as I believe people can sign up on a personals or hookup site looking for a specific type they're attracted to…

Yes, guys on hookup sites want dick! And they want it now! They don't want to hear about other people's pain.


(BTW: I don't use hookup sites. I want to see, hear and feel a man immediately.)

 

[xbuzzerx]

Yes, guys on hookup sites want dick! And they want it now! They don't want to hear about other people's pain.


(BTW: I don't use hookup sites. I want to see, hear and feel a man immediately.)

whenever cornered on a topic, play stupid and go off topic.

 

[pat grimshaw]

An interesting experiment, which I would have liked taking part to, if I only were capable of faking personality/interest...
Your findings are not surprising at all though, there as another thread a few months ago with results from a large study on the same topic...
So once you've gathered/collected facts and drew conclusions, what's next though?…

Yes, what's next?

 

[Apollo]

I read the whole thing and very interesting findings. I am in a situation where I live very close to people of all races and we all get along because of the job. So I am a little disconnected from the rest of the world on this. But I am really starting to change my views on the long debated JUB topic of race/preference. I have always come down on the side on preference, and me being a black man, but I am starting to think there is a lot of residual racism that seeps into these preferences. As someone pointed out, JUB is all about political correctness. So the idea that you have a preference to a certain race could somehow mean you are a little racist will instantly offend a person.

I personally wont get into the debate this time. I Just wanted to give my two cents.

 

[Benvolio]

First it should be pointed out that it was necessarily a small sampling which no statistician would regard as adequate. The people doing the survey are strongly disapproving of racism, doing a survey expecting to find it. They often did, but when they did not they often found objectivization and fetishism. To avoid disapproval, one would have needed to walk a very narrow path. Did they do a white to white control group? They might have found similar incidents of epithets, with racial words, and they might have found similar levels of objectivization and fetishism.

 

[bankside]

On the preference vs. racism thing, it does seem racist to me rather than preference.

It is fascinating to read the results of this experiment at the intersection of ethnicity and sexuality. I think it would be interesting to repeat the experiment, but set up to show the experience of sexual minorities on dating sites directed to particular ethnic groups.

Also, I hope information like this is used to support anti-racism awareness and advocacy. I have observed that one of the most counterproductive things anti-racists can do is to fail to understand the difference between these two sentences:

The former slave states are still racist.
The former slave states still have more racists than other places.

One sentence is accurate. The other makes a false accusation against non-racists from that part of the world, and alienates them. If you alienate non-racists, you waste the opportunity to cultivate an anti-racist.

I hope that will be taken into consideration before publication, as opposed to the hyperbolic language of the OP which levels condemnation at entire regions of the US and Canada.

 

[-Kane-]

Good research... However your findings do not surprise me in the least.

This quote from your post resonated with me because I've contended the same notion for years.

"Our second observation was that thet next two highest races on the desirability heirarchy were there in a negative placement. They were there for fetish reasons more than anything. Black men were fetished and objectified predominantly by white men"

^^^ This has been my only problem with Black Men who choose to "only" date White Men. Even though the evidence it clear as the cock in their mouths, they refuse to believe that their White lover may be a racist homo.

 

[kenzoid]

its a pattern... i see it again and again, and i see it in your comment. someone (usually a person of colour, but in this case, its a white guy who made some effort to put himself in the shoes of a POC) points out the rampant racism. some (usually white) guy dismisses it immediately; in your case by saying that it was just an isolated incident ("someone on the internet behaving like an arsehole")... eventhough the OP makes it very clear that it isnt an isolated incident, but a pattern that can be observed across many instances on several websites. you go on and imply that people are overreacting ("lets all jump in front of a train"). let me tell you: its not the white guys place to decide whether or not POC are "overreacting" about racism.

your comment downplays racism (by saying that its not that big a deal, it was an isolated incident, people are overreacting), and is therefore disrespectful towards people who actually experience racism.

*takes off explanatory hat*
*puts rage hat back on*

grrrrrrrrrr

Finally! Thank you

 

[-Kane-]

I read the whole thing and very interesting findings. I am in a situation where I live very close to people of all races and we all get along because of the job. So I am a little disconnected from the rest of the world on this. But I am really starting to change my views on the long debated JUB topic of race/preference. I have always come down on the side on preference, and me being a black man, but I am starting to think there is a lot of residual racism that seeps into these preferences. As someone pointed out, JUB is all about political correctness. So the idea that you have a preference to a certain race could somehow mean you are a little racist will instantly offend a person.

I personally wont get into the debate this time. I Just wanted to give my two cents.

You don't date Black Men so what's your point?

 

[Benvolio]

Well said, Hard up1, but you should leave open the possibility that the preference for whites is NOT necessarily because they are here the dominant culture. People are attractive if people think they are attractive. It is subjective, but there are some characteristics which are widely thought to be attractive. Are blonde women with nice breasts considered more attractive in Japan or China or other countries where they are not the dominant culture? Are lighter skinned Indians in India considered more attractive? Perhaps it is in part that lighter are more rare. There may be cultures where young people are not considered more attractive, but in most of the world young is more attractive. Nicely formed breasts make a woman more attractive for most men. Broad shoulders and narrow waists on men are generally considered more attractive. Some of this may be hard wired as related to health, reproductive ability and ability to protect and provide.
But, some characteristics are widely considered to be more sexually attractive, unrelated to social or economic factors, such as the "dominant culture".