Nancy Pelosi vs. Howard Dean - Nancy deserves the credit.

[hawkia]

The Dems would be well advised to get rid of Dean. He has done very little to advance their causes.

 

[Homoaffectional]

I'd say they both deserve some credit, along w/a whole lot of committed party leaders, members, activists, not to mention *VOTERS* across America!

This ridiculous debate is the worst possible tangent, and far too much of a distraction from what we need to focus on going forward. It's about as meaningful as seeking 'revenge', which you warned against in another thread.

I personally like to claim my own share of credit for the work I did. That doesn't mean I would say Dean or Pelosi don't deserve their share as well (and I would even concede -- hehehe take that, George Allen -- that they deserve maybe a bit more... ). No *ONE* person deserves all or even most of the credit. That's why it's call a political *PARTY*. It's a group encompassing a wide variety of people working for a greater good -- in this case appealing to people's *hopes* rather than fears...

 

[Homoaffectional]

The Dems would be well advised to get rid of Dean. He has done very little to advance their causes.

Dude... I don't know who you are, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

And they would be *VERY POORLY* advised to get rid of Dean. His 50 state strategy helped the Dems in their victory amazingly and will help them continue to be a national party, and in a few more election cycles, the GOP will be relegated to a mere regional party.

I will call you out on this strange little bit of propaganda right now. I would say you might even be a bitter Repub, but I don't want to come off as presumptous and critical as you.

Your 'advice' is rejected... SOUNDLY!


UPDATED -- I did some research on you, and it was as I suspected. On one of the Foley threads, this *hawkia* person posted "Then I will burn my right wing membership". Yeah, I'm sure Dems will listen to what right-wingers want them to do now that they've *WON* HAHAHA!!

 

[iman]

Dean's 50 state strategy was right on and paid off in the end. Schumer and Emanuel also did a great job. Nancy P's contribution was to stay hidden until the end of the election so that she would not become an issue in the campaign.

 

[NedNickerson]

There's rumors going around on Memphis talk radio about Harold Ford Jr being considered to replace Howard Dean as the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

 

[Andreus]

Pelosi hands down.

she has money, discipline and aggression

 

[Bashful]

I have to go with Dean..and a strong nod to Pelosi. Dean has been travelling and working the party workers in all the states all year. He has gotten the message out locally. It was his call to make this election a local election - state by state - and he pulled it off.
Nancy did her part and kept the elected democrats in order and working together. I think we should be thanking both..not starting a pissing contest!

 

[chance1]

Who deserves the credit?

Pelosi or Dean?

Both were muzzled - so if the the real question is who kept quiet the most?

I think it's a tie

Chuck Schumer and Rahm Emanuel deserve the credit for putting up Dem candidates who were in fact less liberal and more "Republican-like". This way, people who loathe the Pelosi/Dean wing of the party felt better about voting Democrat.

Pelosi and Dean will benefit from these election results but the Dems won despite them not because of them. And should the party follow these two's principles, it will be 2 years and out.

If instead, they play their cards right, and work within the system and their majority to fight the right causes - minimum wage, education and other fundamental Dem principles that resonate (not anti-war) - then the Dems will be in power for a much longer time.

Time will tell

 

[Andreus]

aparently they weren't muzzled enough to help the republicans.

I think you can't underestimate the fact that she has been extremely vocal about her opinions on the Iraq war and they all seem to have come to pass as rather acurate.

Don't discount this great lady

she will soon become the most powerfull woman in all of american history and it didnt happen by accident.

 

[chance1]

aparently they weren't muzzled enough to help the republicans.

I think you can't underestimate the fact that she has been extremely vocal about her opinions on the Iraq war and they all seem to have come to pass as rather acurate.

Don't discount this great lady

she will soon become the most powerfull woman in all of american history and it didnt happen by accident.

You seem to really believe in her Andreus - I must admit, my only experience with her is soundbites - criticizing the Pres - too harshly and personally for my taste.

From what I've read, she does not truly have the support of her party and the majority are afraid of the road she might take them down - one that will not benefit them in the long run.

What is it about her particularly that makes you admire her - other than the fact that she is a female in a male dominated political structure?

 

[Andreus]

She was dead on right about the Iraqi war.

She is the first person to get the democrats in the house to vote as a unified force since Tip O'neal.

She has raised more money than anyone for the party except the Clintons.

She speaks what is on her mind, not what the polls say is most profitable.

She is a friend of the GLBT community.

She opposed the extension of the Patriot act.

She opposes the extension of the Bush tax shenanigans that destroyed the national Debt again.

She wants a ballanced budget and has promised to get a bill for one passed in the house.

She has promised to not impeach the president or waste time with such a childish endeavor. She has point blank said publicly that if the dems are going to keep the house they need to focus on positive actions, not negative ones.

She does not veer from a fight, no matter how unpopular it may currently be.

that is just a few for now.

 

[Homoaffectional]

A discussion about what ideas and who's ideas worked and didn't work is exactly what the democrats need to continue to do.

Yeah, but that would require people actually understanding what worked. The Dems need to have a strategy in many more states in order to actually make real lasting change, and not be pummeled by the usual *backlash*. Howard Dean understands that. Harold Ford Jr. is a 'crook'... just ask your best friend, maltese.

The person who said that Howard Dean should be gotten rid of is not in touch w/reality. The Dems have made regional and congressional gains in every election, and reversed a trend that we'd seen every election cycle since 1992, w/the exception of 2000 (and Bush was even able to steal Florida in that year, because they didn't put enough work in Florida to prevent that, the way they definitely did in Virginia, Missouri, Ohio and Montana this time around...)

We need competent people that engage in this discussion. Not GOP wannabes who want to mislead people into saying the person who deserves a lot of the credit should be dumped so they can take power back. I didn't work so hard for Tuesday's results to see us fall right back into the trap set by the right wing echo chamber w/their pathetic talking points.

Look at the evidence, dummy. Dean helped the Democracy Party ride to victory!

 

[Homoaffectional]

I have to go with Dean..and a strong nod to Pelosi. Dean has been travelling and working the party workers in all the states all year. He has gotten the message out locally. It was his call to make this election a local election - state by state - and he pulled it off.
Nancy did her part and kept the elected democrats in order and working together. I think we should be thanking both..not starting a pissing contest!

Yep. Nice ass, BTW... especially if it's yours. And if that's the case, I wouldn't say your 'bashful', at least about showing a very fuckable ass... ehehehe

 

[Homoaffectional]

She was dead on right about the Iraqi war.

She is the first person to get the democrats in the house to vote as a unified force since Tip O'neal.

She has raised more money than anyone for the party except the Clintons.

She speaks what is on her mind, not what the polls say is most profitable.

She is a friend of the GLBT community.

She opposed the extension of the Patriot act.

She opposes the extension of the Bush tax shenanigans that destroyed the national Debt again.

She wants a ballanced budget and has promised to get a bill for one passed in the house.

She has promised to not impeach the president or waste time with such a childish endeavor. She has point blank said publicly that if the dems are going to keep the house they need to focus on positive actions, not negative ones.

She does not veer from a fight, no matter how unpopular it may currently be.

that is just a few for now.

As is Howard Dean, on most of the things listed above. This is not a contest between Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean. If anything is 'ill advised', it's probably this thread, especially the 'Nancy vs. Howard' title. It's a cynical, sore loser attempt to try to sow divisions within the newly victorious force in American politics.

And it simply will not work. Six years of Bush will surely keep the Dems united for approaching a decade. Dems won't be lulled into complacency any time soon and won't be fooled into squabbling amongst themselves. So this thread is a wasted effort.

 

[BentFender]

I don't think there's really any sort of "war" going on between Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean... but the 50 state strategy was a huge success. Think about the races in Ohio, Florida, and Texas with seats formerly held by Bob Ney, Mark Foley, and Tom DeLay. In two of those Districst the Democrats wouldn't have even fielded a candidate (let alone given them any national funding) in a regular year, this year they did and won all three seats.

Harold Ford has his eye on Lamar Alexander's seat... I don't think he's going anywhere out of TN anytime soon. Usually you only abandon your chair if his strategy failed you, which is clearly not the case for Dean here.

 

[snapcat]

The Dems would be well advised to get rid of Dean. He has done very little to advance their causes.

How silly! Dean was the architect of the 50 State strategy that just won us the election.

 

[Andreus]

As is Howard Dean, on most of the things listed above. This is not a contest between Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean. If anything is 'ill advised', it's probably this thread, especially the 'Nancy vs. Howard' title. It's a cynical, sore loser attempt to try to sow divisions within the newly victorious force in American politics.

And it simply will not work. Six years of Bush will surely keep the Dems united for approaching a decade. Dems won't be lulled into complacency any time soon and won't be fooled into squabbling amongst themselves. So this thread is a wasted effort.

of course both contributed, and i think its like comparing apples and oranges

one is a party worker and one is a congressman

i think that both of their contributions to the victory are unique, As Snaps just said, half the stategy was Deans. but i also think that while no one else could have done what Pelosi did, Dean's contibutions were a result of a team of people, and he was more replaceable in the process than she may have been. He did have the concept and it may just be that he is the type of guy who works better out of office.

we definitely need both of their types to keep the momentum going.

Dean can now say the things that Pelosi can't because she has to reach out to the republicans in ways that they didnt to her party.

She knows that she can't repeat their mistakes

Dean, on the other hand, is free to speak about the overall party principles and how they conflict with the actions of the republican administration.

 

[chance1]

Let's see how you feel about Dean when he enters the Presidential primary race - and tries to mess up Hillary ("she's too soft" he'll say) - based on his delusional belief that the country has gone left

Good for Dean, bad for Dems

sounds like a good campaign slogan

 

[NickCole]

I'm surprised at the arguments above. Neither Dean nor Pelosi had anything whatsoever to do with the Democratic election victories of 7 November. The only person responsible for any of this was George W. Bush. ...

You're wrong.

A lot of elements played into the Democratic win.

Pelosi rallied congressional Democrats into a cohesive group and convinced them to see Democratic control as a reality. To strengthen a group you have to pull them together as one; and you can't win if you don't believe you can. She also raised a huge amount of money and kept the budget tight, giving Democrats an economic fighting chance against the monstrous Republican money machine.

Dean's 50 State Strategy was just as smart and just as essential. He took a look at that red/blue map that was all red in the middle and said we'll never win an election unless we turn some of that middle part blue. He got a lot of flack for that but he stayed focused, and the fact that a lot of the middle was blue this election has to be credited to Dean.

Rahm Emanuel and Chuck Schumer helped, too. They found a lot of good candidates, running several moderate to conservative Democrats.

George Bush helped, to be sure. He's made a lot of mistakes and he couldn't admit to them and fix them. Rumsfeld helped and so did Dick Cheney, insisting they weren't going to change a thing no matter what happened on election day. Also Mark Foley helped because Republicans need the Christian Right out in force on election day and that scandal probably dampened that effort.

Also the Internet helped. Democratic bloggers got information out this year the way Drudge has in the past, and YouTube made it difficult for Republicans to hide. The mainstream media no longer controls what we see, and that had a big impact. Republicans have complained for years that the mainstream media is too liberal but the truth is the mainstream media's squeamishness has worked to the advantage of Republicans.

Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert helped. Limbaugh and Hannity and O'Reilly didn't relent, but the Left had strong voices this time.

And the mainstream media helped. It didn't give Republicans a pass this time as they have for many years. The Internet is very potent competition.

There's lots of credit to go around. But the most important credit goes to American citizens who came out in huge numbers to vote. I stood in line for the first time in years. Well done, America!

 

[Andreus]

and lets not forget that pelosi's strength is in her money and her carefull use of it.

if you want some of the 100 miliion that she has raised, you have to be a constructive member of the democratic party.

if you are the type, like lieberman, that sides with the republicans too often, then you don't get a dime from her coffers. That is a genius way of handling interparty affairs.

if you don't act like a team player, then the team doesn't support your campaigns financially. since its a given that the repubs wont give cash to the dems it is a constant reminder to the politicians of who they are and who they answer to.