Natural allies of the Gay community, but

[barnbuddy]

Well, I don't mean to offend, but Atheists. A good healthy chunk of the electorate who are incredibly welcoming and supportive of gay rights.

Earlier, in a thread titled "Glee/Atheist" I caught some grief because I asked one or two tough questions. The response was somewhat hostile, and I was kinda asked to shut my mouth. And yet, it seems, gay republicans/conservatives have carte blanche to post away.

Now, as a gay atheist/agnostic, I'm used to hostility. But, well, why did people click on a thread titled Atheist, if they didn't want talk specifically and critically about the issue. There are plenty of threads that sink below the horizon without a thought.

At this juncture in the American Republic, you would think the gay community would embrace allies who understand the threat of the religious right. People who absolutely affirm our equal rights, and the absurdity of ancient proscriptions.

 

[altlover85]

This is going to be a long response, but you seem like a nice enough guy so here goes.

I'm an atheist concerning Zeus - that was a myth and fraud

I'm an atheist concerning the judeo-christian god.
Another myth, another fraud.

It should be a personal matter. But in the US today, it's a very political matter, and therefore has to be debated.

Creationism is fake science, and has no place in the classroom. Take it to sunday school.

There may be a creator force out there, but I fail to see why so many insist that we humans are at the center of that creation. But from Copernicus forward, religious people take exception to anything that contradicts their mythology.

And so much misery is inflicted on people by religious dogma. I understand that it gives some folk some warm fuzzy feeling inside, but people die horrible deaths because of these beliefs. If all religious people were Buddists, I would be silent. But that is sadly not the case: They want power, they have always wanted power, right here in America and throughout the world.

I agree that religion is closely associated with power. I would also contend that it has been abused and distorted to a degree. There's a lot of hate going on in the Abrahamic religions, and who loves the caste system with Hinduism. However, there are also positive things as well.

I've found Neo-Paganism to be pretty tolerant too.

I think most people rational and freedom loving people take what works for them with religion and dump the rest.

so, let me get this straight - most of you believe in god, as long as the whole "thout shall not lie with men as you do with women," bit is left out? Is that right?

No, that is incorrect for me at least. Not everyone that is religious prescribes to the God of the Abrahamic religions.

ok serious question - why does your god hide? I mean, he's all powerful, knows everything. But their are billions (western atheist, Chinese, japanese, etc...) who don't believe. Why not take a page from the bible, and put in an appearance? The further out we look, we see untold number of galaxies, but no big copy of the Ten Commandments.

I don't know why God hides. Maybe it doesn't feel it needs to make an appearance to appease those who don't believe in it. Maybe God works in ways beyond what we can conceive so our rationality fails at understanding God. I personally think if God exists, God is more impersonal and less hands-on than many religions would believe. I have no proof for this.

One last question - in your god's eye, are humans more important than say, a dolphin? If yes, why?

I don't know enough about God to say what it deems important or if such matters concern it.

Well, I don't mean to offend, but Atheists. A good healthy chunk of the electorate who are incredibly welcoming and supportive of gay rights.

I think we appreciate you.

Earlier, in a thread titled "Glee/Atheist" I caught some grief because I asked one or two tough questions. The response was somewhat hostile, and I was kinda asked to shut my mouth. And yet, it seems, gay republicans/conservatives have carte blanche to post away.

The response was more hostile to Frodo than you. I don't know where you saw gay republicans or conservatives on that thread. I suppose that depends on how you define conservative though. We may have different definitions. I think of the religious right who would fight against our equality. I didn't see anyone like that in that thread.

Now, as a gay atheist/agnostic, I'm used to hostility. But, well, why did people click on a thread titled Atheist, if they didn't want talk specifically and critically about the issue. There are plenty of threads that sink below the horizon without a thought.

I think plenty of people did engage with you and others on the topic. The general consensus was believe what you want as long as you don't harm others or work against equality. A lot of people didn't know or cafe if God existed, they just wanted to live good lives. I think talking about whether or not god exists and if that matters is relevant to talking about Atheism.

At this juncture in the American Republic, you would think the gay community would embrace allies who understand the threat of the religious right. People who absolutely affirm our equal rights, and the absurdity of ancient proscriptions.

I embrace allies that fight for equal rights. However when atheists make assumptions about all religious people that tends to rub people the wrong way.

I hope this helped you understand some of the hostility you experienced.

 

[hylas]

is this a thread solely about complaining what happened in another thread?

i didnt follow the glee/atheist thread to its end because the op wasnt interested in having an actual discussion, he just wanted to vent. but my understanding was that the users who believed in the existance of a god didnt attack atheists as such, just specific atheist users who kept attacking personal beliefs.

(atheist myself, for what its worth)

 

[hylas]

"ok serious question - why does your god hide?"

thats a real interesting question, but it has no place in the 'gods vs. gays' discussion. the spirit of the lgbt-rights movement asks that you accept all personal beliefs, as long as they dont harm anybody - even if you think those beliefs are silly.

 

[barnbuddy]

Thanks altlover for taking the time to respond. I have friends who have found comfort in in Buddhist and other eastern faiths. Like you said, some world views are benign, while others are toxic.

Perhaps the late hour added to the hostility that I perceived.

I added the thread because I think the atheist and gay communities in the US are natural allies. Certainly, when our enemies say "secular humanist" and "radical homosexual agenda," they see a common threat to a fundamentalist christian/catholic /islamic view of our planet.

btw, I asked about dolphins because I was curious about a spiritual view of these intelligent mammals, who are actually one of the few to approach us in what I perceive as a friendly manner. Certainly more friendly than chimps or lions. Are we free to do with them as we like? Are they property? What's the spiritual take?

 

[BostonPirate]

there are gay people who are spiritual.

Religion does not have to be about politics and anti gay agenda. If the real christians took their faith back from the conservative political movement we would be in a better place as a nation.

 

[G-Lexington]

They're natural allies the same way all other groups are "natural allies". They hitch their wagons together, hoping to gain yardage off of the other group's hard work. Then they get offended when their mission statements don't jibe.

Lex

 

[altlover85]

Thanks altlover for taking the time to respond. I have friends who have found comfort in in Buddhist and other eastern faiths. Like you said, some world views are benign, while others are toxic.

Perhaps the late hour added to the hostility that I perceived.

I added the thread because I think the atheist and gay communities in the US are natural allies. Certainly, when our enemies say "secular humanist" and "radical homosexual agenda," they see a common threat to a fundamentalist christian/catholic /islamic view of our planet.

btw, I asked about dolphins because I was curious about a spiritual view of these intelligent mammals, who are actually one of the few to approach us in what I perceive as a friendly manner. Certainly more friendly than chimps or lions. Are we free to do with them as we like? Are they property? What's the spiritual take?

I'm glad my post helped you to understand that when you speak of religion, it isn't always a case of Christianity, Judaism, Islam. I also understand what you meant as far as natural allies and I would agree with you to a large degree.

As far as the dolphins go, I think they need to be treated with respect and not abused. I would still think of them as property because they aren't people. I don't think property always has to have a negative connotation. For example, pets are technically something you own, but can also be looked on as a member of the family.

I don't think we should eat dolphins and on this I may be a hypocrite because I still eat other types of meat.

 

[wooffy]

Now, as a gay atheist/agnostic, I'm used to hostility.

That one line says it all, doesn't it?

It seems that religious people can make any claim they want, present any religious teaching as "fact", make fools of themselves teaching nonsense like creationism, quote dogma instead of stating their own opinions, and yet they get respect. State openly that you don't believe in god(s), though, and its open season on you.

Ironically some of the most spiritual people I know are atheists, but they have learned to shut up about their belief systems and practices because as soon as the "a" word gets spoken, they get bashed by everyone.

Religious freedom in the western world only extend to theists.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

You'd do well to remember Atheistic communism is infamous for being rabidly homophobic.

 

[altlover85]

That one line says it all, doesn't it?

It seems that religious people can make any claim they want, present any religious teaching as "fact", make fools of themselves teaching nonsense like creationism, quote dogma instead of stating their own opinions, and yet they get respect. State openly that you don't believe in god(s), though, and its open season on you.

Ironically some of the most spiritual people I know are atheists, but they have learned to shut up about their belief systems and practices because as soon as the "a" word gets spoken, they get bashed by everyone.

Religious freedom in the western world only extend to theists.

Re-read the first thread about called Glee/Atheist? or something like that and then come back.

I don't care if you are atheist or not, but don't belittle others beliefs (especially those that aren't actively fighting against GLBT rights) and expect to get a free pass.

There are plenty of people on here who don't know if God exists or not and still live just lives, but even when they say they are spiritual, they were attacked and told that believing in God was foolish.

You may believe that God doesn't exist and it's a stupid idea, but how many times do we have to hear that. How many times do we have to hear about people stupidly following dogma and not thinking for themselves when in fact there are people out there that have evaluated the possibility of God and decided that he exists for them. Maybe they are wrong, but why does that matter to you if they aren't hurting anyone.

I could believe in the Giant Unicorn and if I live a good and decent life and don't hurt others, then who cares if I'm wrong or right?

 

[fetaby]

Don't mind me, just settling in.

 

[resonance]

As a conservative, gay "atheist", I feel a bulk of atheists who must come out to the public and proclaim their atheism are nothing more than attention hoarding trolls.

Atheism is a natural aspect of life. A person is born with no knowledge of god. Yet some "atheists" such as Dawkins are capable of making atheism the centerpiece of their existence. They make atheism about disproving god and this makes atheism difficult to take seriously.

Entire nations such as China have no reverence for god and yet they feel no need to mock others religions or proclaim themselves atheist. The entire concept of atheism itself is a misnomer. By giving itself a name and clustering into a group, atheism is validating the predominance of theism which is in fact not true.

There is in fact no defined group of individuals who subscribe to atheism, who are open to homosexuality, and who share common characteristics. Those who proclaim themselves "atheists" are in fact a small subsection of nonbelievers that stir trouble and that would only hurt the homosexual cause by any association.

 

[KTheLibra]

There is in fact no defined group of individuals who subscribe to atheism, who are open to homosexuality, and who share common characteristics. Those who proclaim themselves "atheists" are in fact a small subsection of nonbelievers that stir trouble and that would only hurt the homosexual cause by any association.

That's offensive. I have numerous friends that are staunch atheists and they are the most supportive and vocal of my rights as a gay citizen.

 

[wooffy]

Re-read the first thread about called Glee/Atheist? or something like that and then come back.

I have been skimming that thread. Did you have a point?

I don't care if you are atheist or not, but don't belittle others beliefs (especially those that aren't actively fighting against GLBT rights) and expect to get a free pass.

I don't expect a "free pass". I don't give a free pass to those who mention religion, either.

You may believe that God doesn't exist and it's a stupid idea, but how many times do we have to hear that.

How many times do we have to hear about "God"? Why is that in the Charter of rights (the same one that also, ironically, gives me freedom of religion)? Why is that term in our national anthem? How many times a week do have I someone's deity shoved in my face? Give it a rest, you're like a straight man complaining that gays are "in his face" all the time.

Militant atheists like me will keep being loud about it until religion becomes a private thing kept out of the public sphere, and without the current taboo protecting it from any and all criticism.

And a correction to your statement above: I believe that theism is harmful, not just stupid.

Maybe they are wrong, but why does that matter to you if they aren't hurting anyone.

Because they are hurting someone: themselves and everyone they expose to their beliefs. Now, if they kept their theism completely private and never exposed me, or anyone else to it, that I wouldn't care. Any adult has the right to self-destructive behaviour. But the minute it enters the public sphere, I will oppose it.

The legal document from which all my civil and human rights in Canada flows starts with the words:

Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

It makes me sick to even type that. Why not enshrine homophobia as a "rule of law" while you're at it? Damn close to the same thing to me. Oh yeah, and if I want to attend a sitting of the House of Commons, as is my right as a citizen, I have to sit through a prayer - something offensive to what I believe in. But we're told to be ok with it, its a non-sectarian prayer after all. Fuck that shit.

There is no escaping theism, it is shoved down our throats every day.


Do I sound like I am on a rant? Yes, I am. Its only 3pm and I have had religion forced on me three times today (not counting this forum) by people who, like you, would no doubt take offense if I told them how much they offended me.

I'm sure I've now offended half the forum. I expect that, "religious tolerance" only tolerates those who are theists, and ideally of Judeo-Christian type.

 

[fetaby]

Can I have some? Because i just know this roller-coaster of fail is just starting up!

Sure, you like caramel?

 

[fetaby]

^Sure, I haven't had it since i was 10 - but i'm willing to try it(and the garlic butter variety) again!

Garlic butter? Could you use that butter sauce they send with delivery pizza? Seems like it would work.

On topic- If any atheists want to help out and support the cause, great. Welcome aboard. If they don't, oh well.

 

[altlover85]

I have been skimming that thread. Did you have a point?

Yes. When you pester people like a fundamentalist (or militant) in your case, they get pissed off.

I don't expect a "free pass". I don't give a free pass to those who mention religion, either.

I don't mind people being atheists, but I don't like them attacking other people.

How many times do we have to hear about "God"? Why is that in the Charter of rights (the same one that also, ironically, gives me freedom of religion)? Why is that term in our national anthem? How many times a week do have I someone's deity shoved in my face? Give it a rest, you're like a straight man complaining that gays are "in his face" all the time.

I don't like God being in the constitution either. It doesn't make me hate theists though.

Militant atheists like me will keep being loud about it until religion becomes a private thing kept out of the public sphere, and without the current taboo protecting it from any and all criticism.

This is similar to :Fundamentalist Christians like me will keep being loud until the country becomes a theocracy and all other beliefs are kept quiet and not public.

And a correction to your statement above: I believe that theism is harmful, not just stupid.

I believe many things can be harmful in the hands of the wrong person or people.

Because they are hurting someone: themselves and everyone they expose to their beliefs. Now, if they kept their theism completely private and never exposed me, or anyone else to it, that I wouldn't care. Any adult has the right to self-destructive behaviour. But the minute it enters the public sphere, I will oppose it.

Except that they aren't hurting anyone. You are just so militantly atheist that you perceive harm where it doesn't always exist.

The legal document from which all my civil and human rights in Canada flows starts with the words:

It makes me sick to even type that. Why not enshrine homophobia as a "rule of law" while you're at it? Damn close to the same thing to me. Oh yeah, and if I want to attend a sitting of the House of Commons, as is my right as a citizen, I have to sit through a prayer - something offensive to what I believe in. But we're told to be ok with it, its a non-sectarian prayer after all. Fuck that shit.

Again, I don't like God in government.

Do I sound like I am on a rant? Yes, I am. Its only 3pm and I have had religion forced on me three times today (not counting this forum) by people who, like you, would no doubt take offense if I told them how much they offended me.

I'm already offended.

I'm sure I've now offended half the forum. I expect that, "religious tolerance" only tolerates those who are theists, and ideally of Judeo-Christian type.

If you think most of the theists here are Judeo-Christian I really don't see that. I see a lot of people who are either agnostic or spritual, but don't believe in the Christian God.

 

[barnbuddy]

This morning, I watched a video by an atheist. She was wondering about the need to protest against the Waynesboro Baptist Church, who was making an appearance in Ohio.

During the 5 minute segment, she praised the idea of the HRC (human Right Campaign) to set up a fund raising booth across the street from the WBC nut jobs.

You see, she gets it. Common enemy=fight together.

but well, e.p I'm certainly happy to provide some small bit of entertainment. It's just all so funny

 

[altlover85]

And i'm glad to read that you chose one instance where it happens to try and negate most others where it clearly doesn't.

Which is probably why i'm chuckling abit. Well, that, and my dick has slipped out of the Y-front of these cheap work undies. Ah well, off to get ready to go.

Are there numbers that show how many atheists support us?

Personally, I didn't think it was a numbers game. I assume that we would get more atheist support than Christian support. It doesn't mean that I won't accept help from Christians or that I would automatically accept any atheist as an ally without evidence that they are one. That being said, I would assume if you said you were an ally, you were one, until proven otherwise.