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Nearly 80 Percent Of Spanish Youth Support Gay Marriage

I simply won't agree with tihs. I have seen people change their minds. I have a different perspective then you do obviously. There were changes in mindsets, and people can change.




Fair enough. I can understand that. I want to live in different countries too... and I have because my parents moved around a lot. I want to see more of the world in a career. My sister almost went to Australia for university, but there were too many issues with applying. Still she may go there in the future. Too many poisonous animals for me though lol.

I don't "want to live in different countries". I only want to find a place to fit in with a life of my own that fits or gets along with the others, and is not just dragged along with the rest.
I am not talking about finding a place to idealize, only one that is worth MY commitment to it. My intention is not being simply selfish, but to a certain point you can only be yourself, selfish or not, if you care basically about yourself, like a mom won't be able to care about her kids if she doesn't first take care of herself... boy, that sounded corny!


As for people changing, it always made more sense to me that what is perceived as change is simply people revealing themselves, getting to develop and be their real selves, rather than being fundamentally different from one stage to the other: evolving along one same line that, considered in discrete, independent stages, may look as different... another corny image: tadpoles or butterflies.
 
Why the need to antagonize and tell name on someone whom you disagree with ? I find more interesting to question him, know what he truly meant with his statement, discuss it with him and if I have points to make to perhaps change his mind, politely tell him.

You go "Go fuck yourself" everytime someone disagree with you ? (and I'm strongly in favor of same-sex marriage - or same civil unions for everyone with exact same benefits if you prefer a non religious connotation).

I misunderstood him, so I'm going to apologise. I jumped to conclusions, but to be fair, the question was poorly worded. To me, he just looked like some straight guy saying that marriage is exclusively for the breeders at that momment. I have difficulty enough stomaching gay people don't give a fuck about their rights, so was my reaction really that surprising? Anyway, as I said, my bad.


hear me out. i don't believe that marriage should be in the hands of government. i mean who the hell is government telling me "you are officially married". i don't believe government should have a right to determine what a marriage is and isn't.
Hopefully the gay community sees it like how i do. I mean marriage should be more societal and not in the hands of the government. so i would just get rid of the institution of marriage from the government.

Sorry dude, I misunderstood you. But I have to agree with Giancarlo, that is pure libertarian nonsense. The reality is, marriage is an institution that falls within the purview of the government. I can't get married, therefore I do not have equal standing before the law. Would you not agree that, even though you disaprove of the current system, that at least needs to change?
 
Sorry dude, I misunderstood you. But I have to agree with Giancarlo, that is pure libertarian nonsense. The reality is, marriage is an institution that falls within the purview of the government. I can't get married, therefore I do not have equal standing before the law. Would you not agree that, even though you disaprove of the current system, that at least needs to change?[/QUOTE]


Oh yea i agree that the system needs to change but i believe that religion is too intertwined with it. A man marrying another dude and calling it a "civil union" is complete bullshit because i believe it's categorizing groups and somewhat discriminatory. I mean come on call it a marriage "not a civil union". Yea again i believe that everyone even if they are homosexual or hetero deserves equal rights of marriage but government is too stupid and church is too powerful for a hurdle to overcome.

I read an article before that i believe said Romania allowed homosexual marriage and data showed that the number of single parent risen. i wish i knew where that article is.
 
What's wrong with having marriage in the hands of the government? Why would the government be too stupid? They are just giving otu marriage licenses.

Yea they are suppose to give out marriage licenses but they do not. they play the role of the moral police and say, " a marriage is between a man and woman."if government actually does what the people want, then they will just pass gay marriage with the same rights as a heterosexual couple. if they do that then i dont have a problem with government handling marriages but i have absolute no confidence within our government. call me bitter but there have been so many government letdowns. ehh what can you do?
I still can get married if i want because i have a heterosexual relationship that i hope leads into us getting married but
it just sucks because i know these two women who love each other and they're my friends and it sucks that they can't get married with the full amenities of marriage law. i mean they love each other and want to marry each other. isn't that enough?
 
Here's a past thread which talks about why gay marriage won't be repealed in Spain.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325161&highlight=marriage+spain

Hell even Scott Walker hasn't tried to legislatively repeal the domestic partnership program in Wisconsin and an attempt to repeal gay marriage in New Hampshire has been make with extreme opposition from both parties, despite the legislature having supermajorities in both chambers of state governments.

And as I said, he has softened his stance on the issue:

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_28399.shtml
 
I doubt you even read the thread I posted, and I'm no apologist to the right wing. I just believe that you can find support in unlikely places sometimes is all.

I doubt the constitutional court will rule the law is unconstitutional BTW.

As far as New York, I noticed you haven't been back to the thread I started since I posted many more promising things regarding Republicans on the issue...
 
Here's a past thread which talks about why gay marriage won't be repealed in Spain.

http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325161&highlight=marriage+spain

Hell even Scott Walker hasn't tried to legislatively repeal the domestic partnership program in Wisconsin and an attempt to repeal gay marriage in New Hampshire has been make with extreme opposition from both parties, despite the legislature having supermajorities in both chambers of state governments.

And as I said, he has softened his stance on the issue:

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_28399.shtml
There are only two things necessary to repeal gay marriage in Spain: that the so-called conservatives (they are not conservatives, right party, let alone democrats) are given the opportunity to rule the country... there is only one thing. I was going to add that the country has bigger problems than gay rights, but it's not actually necessary.

As I keep saying, it doesn't matter how much awareness and intelligence there is in Spain, it will always lack the necessary support and will go down the drain as long as there are a few ruling in the "right" *pun* direction and the mass of the population being as politically pusillanimous or even totally clueless as they have always been.

Look, Spain has produced more constitutions than most Western countries, and that doesn't mean it's a very "constitutional" country. Legal decisions are always far more politically-driven and manipulated that you would expect from a superficial look, and from your assumptions based on how a Western democratic country should act, because even supposedly independent powers always must, in fact, take into account not to upset very much certain obscure forces of the country. The present democracy of Spain, like other democracies in the world, say Japan, is build on lots of deliberate cover up of shit that was considered better not to stir in order to build what we have today, so that if even a leftist ruling party knows that it can't go very far in some issues, and is therefore constrained by the primitive forces of the country, imagine when those forces are in power.

Thirty years ago Spain was despised as a wart in the Western political and legal system, and the thorough makeover so admired today is not, could not be so deep as to clean away forces that are just frozen waiting for the right moment to be unleashed again.
 
I think this post says a lot, and this guy is from the UK:

"It won't be reversed. If you think it will you don't know modern Spain, Europe, the EU or the European Court of Human Rights. No EU party running on an anti-gay platform will get elected to a majority in any Western European country and no mainstream party will ally with them in the European Parliament.

An EU country doesn't necessarily have to rush to bring in equality legislation but once it's in place, as it is throughout most of Western Europe, to reverse it would be prejudicial under contemporary supra-national laws and treaties. It would be nigh on impossible. It would be a minefield that would bog down any government in legality and appeals and parliamentary governments don't get bogged down like that as they can't function."
 
I think this post says a lot, and this guy is from the UK:

"It won't be reversed. If you think it will you don't know modern Spain, Europe, the EU or the European Court of Human Rights. No EU party running on an anti-gay platform will get elected to a majority in any Western European country and no mainstream party will ally with them in the European Parliament.

An EU country doesn't necessarily have to rush to bring in equality legislation but once it's in place, as it is throughout most of Western Europe, to reverse it would be prejudicial under contemporary supra-national laws and treaties. It would be nigh on impossible. It would be a minefield that would bog down any government in legality and appeals and parliamentary governments don't get bogged down like that as they can't function."

One of the main arguments of all sorts of conservative parties around the world is that countries in which gay marriage is allowed are an exception in the global context, and also an exception in legal history: so much for the stability in the future.
You are all assuming that the repeal is something a country would make as a maverick move, and that therefore even if only for a sort of sense of shame, no government will dare do it but, let's be serious and logical, since when a government having the will and power to do something will stop just because of what other countries will think, and since when a country is isolated for a partial blow to civil rights, and that considering that other countries are actually against that blow. Acceptance of homosexuality is still much more a question of habit than of belief for the greater part of population, and even if thousands or a million people went to the streets to protest, it wouldn't change anything.
The key of this question is considering a global situation, in which, just like after the middle 1930s and after WWII the world, beginning from the Western world, entered an era of backward conservatism, we would enter a period in which economic crisis and political unrest after some decades of growth and optimism will allow a darker picture than present convictions would allow to admit or merely conceive. Now it may be not big news to you how weak the EU, even the monetary union, actually is, but this is hardly even the begininng, so don't count on countries who will be more concerned on their own problems and on keeping the whole Union cagebird afloat to, at least, 1992 or 2001 status, to bother about gay rights beyond a mild statement, of the sort they issue when some bad dictator engages himself in actions that the EU or even America won't be able to stop.

Forty five years ago, you could also see coming the results of sexual liberation and fight for civil rights that today we take for granted, and back then there were also millions of people who would argue that acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage or the election of a black president on the US would tear countries apart, and set one country against the rest.

All the forces remain alive, they are just waiting for their moment, and the naive conviction of the opposite party will help them to get back on track.
 
You don't think government should be involved in marriage therefore it shouldn't be legalized? Sorry but that's ridiculous. Marriage grants certain rights and tax breaks that are administered, upheld and/or protected by government. They have to be involved.
He may be talking about governments fixing dogmatically, as churches do, what is or should be marriage but, obviously, that is not the case: governments, as you and we know, simply consider in what way whatever concept fits the legal system of the country, so obviously a government must forget about cultural prejudices and focus on the real pragmatical bearing of those concepts in civil life, that is, focus on civil rights.
 
I've said, I think a Rajoy government will be sneaky about repealing gay marriage and add it to some other bill. Scream4ever has told me repeatedly to try to find gay friendly allies in conservative parties... why should I? There are no allies in the PP... there never has been and never will be.

Leftists need to remain vigilant in Spain but are getting lazy. I've said. The one thing we can hope is that the beliefs of the past will disappear when previous generations die from old age... but that's a bit of wishful thinking of my part... the collapse of the IU (United Left) really has been my biggest concern...

As I said above, the problem is that people are more just simply used to seeing homosexuality than really understanding and believing and, therefore, accepting in real depth homosexuality.
There is not yet a systematic exposition and argumentation of the vague ideas that are always tlaked about but only confusely articulated, and when not even those supposedly with a better understanding can make it and themselves clear, how do you expect people with other priorities and daily habits to be able to accept anything beyond ready-made incoherent, incomplete, but clear-cut, comforting, dogmatic, stout systems like the Bible or the Koran, fitting the lazy and prejudiced mind of common people who take being able to reason as the equal of actually reasoning and being reasonable.

Science, democracy, flowing [sic, not flowering] economy, information management and urban civilization in general are very sophisticated and need an equally sophisticated constant keeping: the self-assured conviction of obscurantist religions doesn't need much to resist along with the other plagues, like sickness or war.
 
Call me optimist, but I think gay rights will only be on the raise on western european countries. Why ? Because those who oppose it are dying, litteraly, and those who are the most in favor are the young. For each opponent who dies, a baby is born who is 80% chance of being in favor. Statistically it means it's just a question of time. In 20 years I predict that almost all western europeans nations will have same sex marriage or their strict equivalent.
 
More than 70% in France, but contrary to Spain, same sex marriage is not legal in France :(
(52% overall population in favor and +/- 35 against, if I remember correctly).
In a hundred years, the global government will have established it everywhere on Earth, and only gay people will be on the government, because they are just better than straight :)
A dream ? Not ! A vision ! :)

It's an odd thing that spaniards used to hire buses in 1974 to see women naked in a movie (Emmanuelle) in Perpignan, France.
Nowadays it seems that being gay friendly is fashionable here. By the moment.

But right wing is coming. Madrid's Major Ruiz Gallardon (right winged, but reasonably gay-friendly) could win the elections and resign to leave homophobic Ana Botella* in his place. Black storms are coming.
(*Ana Botella, wife of ex-president of Spain José Maria Aznar)
 
Call me optimist, but I think gay rights will only be on the raise on western european countries. Why ? Because those who oppose it are dying, litteraly, and those who are the most in favor are the young. For each opponent who dies, a baby is born who is 80% chance of being in favor. Statistically it means it's just a question of time. In 20 years I predict that almost all western europeans nations will have same sex marriage or their strict equivalent.
You take for granted the replacement generations of the backward wackos. The reason why the Vatican or the PP oppose kids being taught at school that homos are normal people is that they don't want to lose their last means to preserve their prejudices.
 
But they are clearly failing.
I hope no stupid mod will fail again and delete this :cool:

ὥστε θνητὸν ὄντα κείνην τὴν τελευταίαν ἰδεῖν
ἡμέραν ἐπισκοποῦντα μηδέν᾽ ὀλβίζειν, πρὶν ἂν
τέρμα τοῦ βίου περάσῃ μηδὲν ἀλγεινὸν παθών.
 
I found this translation, hope it's correct :

"Call no one blessed in this life until
you see them reach their life's end
having suffered no calamity."

I have always loved greek tragedies, like Oedipe and Antigone.

Still, I remain optimist. I want to trust humankind :)
 
I found this translation, hope it's correct :

"Call no one blessed in this life until
you see them reach their life's end
having suffered no calamity."

I have always loved greek tragedies, like Oedipe and Antigone.

Still, I remain optimist. I want to trust humankind :)

Why do people always have to get so pompously solemn about these things? It's not about "Humanity" or "Human Nature" and how bad or how good they essentially are... I am considering only some facts, not passing a whole judgment...
 
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