New Pope Breaks With Basic Foundation of Christianity ... You Don't Have to Believe To Go To Heaven

[kallipolis]

Oh, I forgot, only you are educated.

Clearly, you chose to avoid reading my earlier scriptural quotes...a convenient, convenience for you, provided by me to ease your sense of prejudice..

 

[palbert]

Oh, I forgot, only you are educated.

From time to time I am amused that those so familiar with the Bible have no familiarity with what preceded it, which is the original text of what are called the scriptures. Most know only the King James version, a translation incorporating other translations, and at all times a quasi-political document.

Even now disputes arise over the meaning of words placing interpretation of passages in dispute.

To say you follow the literal meaning of the Bible is to say you follow King James, King of England, France and Scotland.

Adam Nicholson, God's Secretaries, Harper Collins (2003). (on the translation process and compromises)

Davies, Brooke and Callaway, The Complete World of The Dead Sea Scrolls, Thames & Hudson Ltd. (2002)

I wait a more trustworthy opportunity.

 

[kallipolis]

From time to time I am amused that those so familiar with the Bible have no familiarity with what preceded it, which is the original text of what are called the scriptures. Most know only the King James version, a translation incorporating other translations, and at all times a quasi-political document.

Even now disputes arise over the meaning of words placing interpretation of passages in dispute.

To say you follow the literal meaning of the Bible is to say you follow King James, King of England, France and Scotland.

Adam Nicholson, God's Secretaries, Harper Collins (2003). (on the translation process and compromises)

Davies, Brooke and Callaway, The Complete World of The Dead Sea Scrolls, Thames & Hudson Ltd. (2002)

I wait a more trustworthy opportunity.

Lewis, the problem is not the translation, for I'm reading in modern Greek (I can also understand the original Koine Greek) rather, personal interpretation of scripture which accounts for some 30,000 Christian denominations...

 

[Jack Springer]

The Catholic church has never taught that faith alone in Jesus Christ brings salvation. They have always taught faith plus works are necessary and that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is insufficient. For them, there is no salvation apart from the mass, the eucharist, etc, etc. However, the Pope is taking it further than this. He is saying that faith is totally unnecessary and that good works are all that's necessary to be right with God, even if they don't believe in Him. He is a heretic, which is not so unusual for Catholic Popes.

Let us not confuse Biblical Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

I agree this goes further. Isn't there a evangelical named Ron Bell that has similar beliefs. I think his thesis is that everyone will go to heaven -- and that there is no hell.


kallipolis -- I would hope that the current Pope is more than just a theist. He has a hard job ahead of him if he doesn't believe what his church teaches.

 

[Love me 2]

Well done, kallipolis!

 

[palbert]

Lewis, the problem is not the translation, for I'm reading in modern Greek (I can also understand the original Koine Greek) rather, personal interpretation of scripture which accounts for some 30,000 Christian denominations...

I would think the integrity of the translation would be paramount.

Christ was the word that spake it.
He took the bread and break it;
And what his words did make it
That I believe and take it.

(Reputedly spoken by Elizabeth when questioned on her beliefs on the Eucharist in Mary's reign)

http://www.elizabethi.org/us/quotes/

 

[kallipolis]

I agree that the integrity of all Biblical translations, from the Koine, and Hebrew is paramount....to the best of my knowledge there is no valid criticism of translations provided by the traditional Christian churches

The issue is one of interpretation of scripture.... that's why there are some 30,000 denominations in the Christian family.

 

[Jack Springer]

I would think the integrity of the translation would be paramount.



http://www.elizabethi.org/us/quotes/

Thank you Palbert. Great quote by Elizabeth. I find it sad that people pick and choose what to believe about the Bible.

 

[Mariatenebre]

I'm totally blown away. Christians believe that the only way to salvation is through belief in Jesus Christ. Christians don't believe that being 'good' gets you into heaven.

I know many Catholics who would disagree with the Pope on this.

It just shows to me that the direction the RC was going before and after the Reformation is one that is more away from the true Church.

The Roman Catholic church has abandoned the 'catholic' church.

Well the fact that the Catholic Church and Christianity in general has belief as a way to salvation shows the evil of Christianity. It shows that your god is no different then any dictator through out history. That like every dictator he demands unquestioning belief and obedience and tortures people in this case a celestial concentration camp who disagree and will not follow him. He is no different then Hitler, Stalin or any other brutal tyrant. The fact that he tortures good people merely because they do not support him shows that in essence he is an evil god. For those that hurt good people are by definition evil. He is a tyrant who just wants followers and damns all others for not following him no matter whether they are good or bad. This idea is just another example at how the Abrahamic religions are evil religions and why they are vastly falling out of favor for more sensible religions like Pagan ones.

The Catholic church has never taught that faith alone in Jesus Christ brings salvation. They have always taught faith plus works are necessary and that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is insufficient. For them, there is no salvation apart from the mass, the eucharist, etc, etc. However, the Pope is taking it further than this. He is saying that faith is totally unnecessary and that good works are all that's necessary to be right with God, even if they don't believe in Him. He is a heretic, which is not so unusual for Catholic Popes.

Let us not confuse Biblical Christianity with Roman Catholicism.

Biblical Christianity is inherently evil. It holds the idea that in order to basically not be brutally tortured in the next life one must accept and obey their celestial tyrant, Yahweh the Canaanite war god in order to be saved from his wrath. He is no different then any tyrant who punishes those who do not follow him in a brutal fashion. Faith does not make someone a good person and it is only by a person's moral nature should they be rewarded or punished. This was the standard in much of the Pagan world and it was mainly with the Abrahamic religions did we get this idea of the tyrant who kills all that do not follow him. Which isn't really shocking considering that the Abrahamics have Yahweh as a deity. A god that would make the Grecian Ares seem like a boy scout in comparison to his brutality.

 

[Jack Springer]

Well the fact that the Catholic Church and Christianity in general has belief as a way to salvation shows the evil of Christianity. It shows that your god is no different then any dictator through out history. That like every dictator he demands unquestioning belief and obedience and tortures people in this case a celestial concentration camp who disagree and will not follow him. He is no different then Hitler, Stalin or any other brutal tyrant. The fact that he tortures good people merely because they do not support him shows that in essence he is an evil god. For those that hurt good people are by definition evil. He is a tyrant who just wants followers and damns all others for not following him no matter whether they are good or bad. This idea is just another example at how the Abrahamic religions are evil religions and why they are vastly falling out of favor for more sensible religions like Pagan ones.


Biblical Christianity is inherently evil. It holds the idea that in order to basically not be brutally tortured in the next life one must accept and obey their celestial tyrant, Yahweh the Canaanite war god in order to be saved from his wrath. He is no different then any tyrant who punishes those who do not follow him in a brutal fashion. Faith does not make someone a good person and it is only by a person's moral nature should they be rewarded or punished. This was the standard in much of the Pagan world and it was mainly with the Abrahamic religions did we get this idea of the tyrant who kills all that do not follow him. Which isn't really shocking considering that the Abrahamics have Yahweh as a deity. A god that would make the Grecian Ares seem like a boy scout in comparison to his brutality.

Yeah, good ole pagan worship. Let's carve up some cows in some farmer's pasture and drink human blood, dress in black and dance around a fire in the timber. If times are good -- maybe sacrifice some young kids.

Nice religion.

 

[palbert]

Yeah, good ole pagan worship. Let's carve up some cows in some farmer's pasture and drink human blood, dress in black and dance around a fire in the timber. If times are good -- maybe sacrifice some young kids.

Nice religion.

You forgot the censer, the bread into body and the wine into blood parts. Oh, you're talking about another form of paganism.

I await your curing at the tomb of the martyr, Saint Thomas à Becket.

 

[Yuki Sohma]

As has been pointed out before here in JUB this Pope, this Pope Francis the Jesuit is an Exorcist as well. You go Your Holiness Papa Francisco! Rock on

bad Yuki

 

[bankside]

Yeah, good ole pagan worship. Let's carve up some cows in some farmer's pasture and drink human blood, dress in black and dance around a fire in the timber. If times are good -- maybe sacrifice some young kids.

Nice religion.

Jack, you can always opt for "None of the above."

Or "None of the Above" if you prefer.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Yeah, good ole pagan worship. Let's carve up some cows in some farmer's pasture and drink human blood, dress in black and dance around a fire in the timber. If times are good -- maybe sacrifice some young kids.

Nice religion.

Except for the fact that the majority of Pagans did not drink human blood nor was it customary for all to "dress in black and dance around a fire." Child sacrifice was not very common as well. However child and non child sacrifice was very common in the Bible as shown here.
http://www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htm

In fact Yahweh Sabeoth was so brutal that he commanded that every first born child of every creature be sacrificed to him.
Even more peculiar is God's obsession with first-born sons. In Exodus 13:2 the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me." Later it says that you can redeem (replace) an ass with a sheep and that you must redeem a child for an unspecified price. It is clear from the context that "consecrate" means a burning sacrifice. These priests are guilty of theft and kidnapping. Since any sins in the Old Testament were punishable by death, these priests used the threat of death to extort food and money from their followers. What do we call a scum-bag that threatens to kill your kids unless you pay a ransom? A kidnapper! If these priests were alive today they would be in prison with Abraham.

In fact in Christianity your most important myth is the human sacrifice of your god man Jesus in order to pay for the collective guilt idea known as original sin. This is an especially evil concept to have one person die for the "sins" of another and don't get me started on the collective guilt and punishment in the Bible especially the racist genocides done by Yahweh and his acolytes.

Many Pagans had animal sacrifice but this was also done by Yahweh. Few Pagans practiced child sacrifice or any form of human sacrifice however it was common for Yahweh. Dressing in black wasn't really common either. However Pagan religions were always bastions of religious freedom and gave more rights to women then the Abrahamics (not that they did not have problems with patriarchy and in some matriarchy) as well as respecting homosexuals. Plus you would never see a god outside of Yahweh that punished all those that did not follow him with eternal torture. As I mentioned even Ares of the Greeks did not do that and he was terribly violent and brutal. However one thing we see in both is that just as Ares was not liked by the other Greek Gods so too was brutal Yahweh not liked by the Canaanite Gods. However just as the Spartans and Romans made Ares one of their lead gods so too did the Hebrews make Yahweh their lead god. However one thing that I say is that Athena is much better then either Ares or Yahweh. She was a valorous Goddess who represented the wisdom of war and fighting war for just reasons. I personally think she could pulverize both Ares and Yahweh.

 

[Kyanimal]

"Religion is the Opiate of the Masses." _ Karl Marx (I think)

Throughout Human History, "Religion", whether Pagan, or otherwise, has always been about Control, Power, Wealth, and Influence.

Depending on which God, or Gods, was/were perpetuated, in any given civilization, it was all mainly a Political (Popular) consideration, than a truly Religious concern.

The unique aspect of the Abrahamic approach was that there was only ONE God. And, in order to persuade the indigent populace to adapt to/adopt that, the "Old" Pagan Holidays, and Rituals, were incorporated into what would become "Main Stream" Religion. (Beltane suddenly became Easter, for example.)

Religion/Belief is entirely a "Man Made" concept, made by Man, and FOR Man (ALL Humans)!

I'm not all that sure that God created Us, as much as We created God!

That said, Pope Francis seems to be the most Refreshing Pope EVER! And, that means more for ALL Religions, not just the Catholic Church.

He is not only promoting the tenants of his Faith, but also HONESTLY Living them!

And, THAT, even from a Protestant (Gay) Preacher's Kid, is TOTALLY Admirable!

All the more reasons to ... no matter what ...

Keep smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Jack Springer]

^^

If you believe what you just wrote ... why post in this forum?

 

[medic1]

^^

If you believe what you just wrote ... why post in this forum?

Because he is very much on Topic . Plus his insight is a damn lot better than yours!!!!

 

[Jack Springer]

^^

If you have no interests, no belief structure ... again why would you post in a thread you don't care about.

Insight is a matter of option.

 

[T-Rexx]

One of the fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism is belief in the mechanism by which salvation is achieved. Catholics have always taught that salvation is achieved by the performance of good works. Protests contend that this is a wrong interpretation of scripture - that salvation is achieved by belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ alone.

The requirement for acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord as a condition for entry into heaven is problematic for Catholic theologians. It means that only Christians may enjoy salvation, a position which seems absurd to Catholics. What of the hundreds of millions of people who lived before Christ was born? What of the hundreds of millions of people who live and die in the bush, never having heard of Jesus Christ? What of children who die before they can understand? What of great but non-Christian men like Mahatma Gandhi? Do Protestants really believe Gandhi is burning in hell because he did not accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and personal savior?

All religions believe astonishingly illogical and absurd things, which would not be acceptable in society outside of the context of religion. Pope Francis's statements on salvation are not only more sensible than the vast majority of things religious people generally say on the subject, but they also happen to be entirely within traditional Catholic thought and Catholic teaching.

See Desmond Tutu's God Is Not a Christian.

 

[FirmaFan]

^^

If you have no interests, no belief structure ... again why would you post in a thread you don't care about.

Insight is a matter of option.

I have heard this asked quite a lot of atheists. Why are atheists so active in religious discussions if they do not believe in the tenants of the religion? Neil DeGrasse Tyson is often labeled an atheist but adamantly rejects that label because he feels much the same way. He once compared it to golfing, stating that he does not golf at all, so why would he want to spend any time discussing it? Well, if golfers were constantly directing their golf balls into your car windshield, you then might have something to say on the matter. The same is true for religious discussions - religion is a MAJOR part of our society and effects EVERYONE, not just those who believe. Many of those effects have been severely detrimental. In the case of this particular thread, the pope's comments are down-right insulting to non-believers. I can (and am) a good person without belief in god. My sense of right and wrong is not dependent upon any ideas of a supreme being or higher power instilling those attributes upon me - the same can be said for most believers as well, they just don't admit to it. For the pope to imply that, even though I am not a believer, because I am a good person I am following his god is an offensive attempt to inject his god and credit him for the morality and decency that I have. It was not his god that grew up in a universe that must be shared with other human beings, it was ME! I wish to live the best life possible for as long as possible because I understand that I will not be getting a second life when I die, so, in order for me to live the best life possible, I must understand that I share this reality with others, and I must recognize that my actions have consequences, and, as such, I will avoid, whenever possible, those actions which have negative consequences on myself and others. I have come to an understanding about the nature of the reality that I live in, I have achieved this understanding - it was not instilled upon me by some higher power. Religion and religious tenants are not paths to morality. There is no system in religion for determining what is moral and what isn't. Religion does not allow us to understand morality, religion simply makes moral pronouncements. There is no method, or reason behind it.

Having no beliefs does not mean you don't care about religious beliefs, or do not want to actively participate in discussions about religion. In fact, as you can clearly see, the exact opposite tends to be true.