Nifty.org - Pedophilia Central?

[pjlikesporn]

Pedophilia is a crime. Claiming it as 'fiction' and, therefore, protected under Freedom of Speech is ridiculus. Timothy McVeigh built his bombs from 'How To' instruction which I believe he either found on the net or in books. He killed a few hundred people, including some children. How many thousands of children are killed or traumatized each year by pedophiles? Protecting it under 'Free Speech' is legalizing the crime.

This would be a better analogy if we were talking about pedophiles publishing stories like "10 Ways To Pick Up Kids" or something. Here, you miss some issues. First, the stories are fiction; to compare authoring a story to molesting a child might be disproportionate.

Second, you seem to miss the benefits that American freedom of speech does provide. The US has seen some scary concentration of power. Our president has usurped a great deal of power much of which our legislature has simply ceded to him. In many ways, it's nice to see how robust our freedom of speech doctrine is. If simply banning stories involving children is the solution to a pedophilia problem, what other problems does it raise? What else can people not write about? Are people allowed to think about pedophilia? Controlling what people can talk about comes dangerously close to controlling what they can think about--and in our current political situation, that is frightening indeed.

I genuinely thought your proposal was thoughtful and well-reasoned. However, I think you might miss some of the complexities of how freedom of speech fits into our system.

 

[gsdx]

This would be a better analogy if we were talking about pedophiles publishing stories like "10 Ways To Pick Up Kids" or something. Here, you miss some issues. First, the stories are fiction; to compare authoring a story to molesting a child might be disproportionate.

I understand what you're saying, but there is a big difference between writing a story and writing a 'How To' book.

I could write a fictional story about a 40-year-old man and a 12-year-old boy. However, I could never write a book about how to pick up those 12-year-olds in the first place any more than I could write a book about rebuilding the engine of a '58 Ford. I simply don't know how either of them are done. In order to write books like that, the authors must know how to do it. In the case of "10 Ways To Pick Up Kids", the author is condoning and promoting his crimes and teaching others how to follow in his footsteps.

 

[pjlikesporn]

I understand what you're saying, but there is a big difference between writing a story and writing a 'How To' book.

I could write a fictional story about a 40-year-old man and a 12-year-old boy. However, I could never write a book about how to pick up those 12-year-olds in the first place any more than I could write a book about rebuilding the engine of a '58 Ford. I simply don't know how either of them are done. In order to write books like that, the authors must know how to do it. In the case of "10 Ways To Pick Up Kids", the author is condoning and promoting his crimes and teaching others how to follow in his footsteps.

Wait. Now I'm really confused. My point was entirely that such a difference did exist--that the story should not be criminalized but the "How To" book should be. But in your earlier post (#23, final paragraph), you likened the Nifty sotries to McVeigh's 'how to' books in support for making the former illegal. I wanted to point out that there was a difference.

 

[Yves]

^I hear you, GSDX. I wonder what might happen if the method of the crime is detailed in a newspaper report and someone copycats it - could the newspaper be sued? Scary if it can...

As I said with my post, though, where can a line be drawn if we are just talking about what we did as kids when we all under-age? I don't want to just be chatting to my mates at dinner or something and be hauled off by the cops!

-d-

Context makes a difference. It´s not the same to share personal experiences at home than at a bulletin board/website. There is no expectation of privacy in Internet. The original post refers to sharing under-age stories via Internet.

Restrictions to information are a reality in other areas. Bioterrorism in the US is a good example. There are restrictions in place regarding what can be published in a journal, public forum or Internet. There is no freedom of information regarding bioterrorism in the US. I know what might happen if a group of JUB posters decide to share stories on bioterrorism or provide technical details that facilitate a bioterrorist attack....Government officials won´t buy the "it´s just fiction" argument. Those restrictions are in place because of fear of potential consequences. Are those limitations to freedom of speech? Yes.

American society values freedom of speech but some exceptions are in place. The discussion on hate speech or limitations to dissemination of technical information (bioterrorism) are recent examples. Sharing written child pornography via Internet is not neutral. Fantasies are mere thoughts in the mind of an average person. No one forces me to read a story of under-age sex, but the mind of a pedophile is slightly different. Those Internet stories are not part of a treatment strategy. A diagnosed pedophile can share thoughts and fantasies as part of treatment in a supervised clinical setting. A different story is to publish under-age stories to an unknown audience in Internet.

 

[gsdx]

Wait. Now I'm really confused.

That's why I said "I understand what you're saying." I got distracted, though, and forgot to mention that the 'How To' books on picking up kids is no different than the stories in Nifty. They are showing the readers how to seduce and have sex with kids.

My apologies for your confusion. My train-of-thought became derailed.

 

[Joshua_me]

Okay, let's cut thru the treacle here.

Nobody goes on Nifty to 'exercise their right to free speech', they go there
to exercise their dicks.

I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it, I've done the same thing. Although,
it's literally been years ago. (Why read when there's so much video available ? I'm just sayin'...)

But back to the point. There have always been categories on that site that
totally gross me out. (Beastiality comes to mind) I mean, I can't even imagine that people get off reading about that sort of thing, but apparently they do. But, does this mean that they start crusing the humane society looking for a little Lab on Retriever action ? Of course not.

Now, I'm certainly not comparing animals to young children, but there is a
commonality in play here. That is, fantasy vs. reality. There are still plenty of people out there that condemn ALL forms of pornography, from Playboy on down, their main complaint being that men reading such smut increases the likelyhood that they are going to go out and rape and pillage in a hormone induced rage.

Most guys know that the opposite is usually true. We're not going to 'rape and pillage', we're going to jack off and maybe take a nap afterwards. So,
it could be argued that the 'self-release' of tension actually decreases the
number of sexual crimes, instead of the other way around.

Either way, disgusting and disturbing as some of the stories on Nifty can be, I doubt they put any thoughts in the readers' mind that weren't there in the first place. Hopefully, all Nifty is fostering is a fantasy life in the people whose minds drift in that direction, and just maybe it's keeping them at bay, rather then helping them act it out in real life.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Wow, you guys have a lot of great opinions on this matter from both sides of the aisle.

Personally, I'm the type who isn't big on censorship and strongly believe in freedom of speech. But I am concerned about the community that Nifty.org is fostering to. If you notice, a lot of guys leave their e-mail addresses and encourage other men who "like what they read" to contact them. Could Nifty be playing host to the underground community of pedophilia, where these men publically post their stories and then gain access to other men who share their interests? For example, with a community of men and e-mail addresses of 8-12 year-old stories floating around, how do we know pictures or even videos aren't being sent?

But I agree with dissenters of "where do we draw the line?" What is the erotic story writable "age limit?" Is it 18? 16? 14? What if it describes a high school re-enactment of one's own experimentation? Does the author become a pedophile? These are tough questions. The site has a lot of great, legal-minded stories, but it certainly openly caters to pedophilia. The warning signs are there, so how much abuse has Nifty.org encouraged beyond fantasy?

 

[sb]

killing and eating people is vile, abnormal, disgusting and illegal. yet silence of the lambs was a book and oscar winning film.

 

[Just_Believe18]

But the theme of the novel wasn't about glorifying cannibalism, but using it as a literary device to drive the plot.

Legally, there are distinctions about how content is used. For example, a photographer's image of a naked man can be sanctioned by law as Art. However, a naked man on a site like corbinfisher.com is viewed as pornography. The distinction is the purpose of content. While the photographer is using his model for a center piece in his portfolio, the pornographer is using his model as a means for erotic gratification.

Likewise, if a novel wrote about child abuse as a literary device to drive the story's plot, thats ok. But in Nifty.org's case, child abuse is being written about for the purpose of masterbation, and fulfilling imaginative fantasies the offender wishes he could experience.

 

[Fire]

One could say there isn't an internationally organized group of people advocating and promoting this type of behaviour.

There was, but they organized a convention at a Holiday Inn and the caterer never showed up.

Har, har!

 

[Green_Man_007]

"Heavy metal music forced teens to commit suicide"..... "Zoloft made a teen kill his grandparents"....."Graphic violence in video games promotes lethal torture"....

What people overlook when they buy the litigious "Devil made me do it" scapegoat is that the perps were MAJORLY FUCKED-UP INDIVIDUALS acting on their own MAJORLY FUCKED-UP free will, with or without an external influence.

How many of us are often exposed to video and still photos of nude female bodies contorted every which way in the heat of passionate sex, or sprawling legs wide open while fingering their throbbing pink clitorises?

Those images do not make me want to pick up a big-titted whore at a str8 bar, rip her clothes off and lick her juicy cunt until she screams for my hot dick to thrust into her real good.

(How many just said, "EW!" ? I just said it, many times while writing that.)

As to the whole Columbine massacre, it can be traced to a number of factors, and suggestive content from the internet is a far stretch.

If I had access to assault weapons in 8th grade, I would have been on the edge of gunning down a cafeteria full of bullies myself.

My parents were the kind, though, who were attentive enough to spot the overt signs of anti-social pathology, well before I could have walked out of the house one morning with a 10-shot rifle under a trenchcoat .

Plus, I was the kind of adolescent INDIVIDUAL who could see far enough ahead to reason out the consequences of a homicidal rampage.

Thanks to Columbine publicity, many high schools now have zero tolerance policies on bullying

Pedophilia has been around since ancient Greece, and child sex trafficking operates today, both without the help of online fiction.

It may be shocking to learn allegations that Republican moguls among the Bohemian Grove, and military officials, have been involved in such abusive horrors, formerly with the collaboration of a Nebraska Boys Town facility which supplied children for prostitution, porn films, and MK-ULTRA brainwash victims.

(Search the terms "The Franklin Cover-Up", "Johnny Gosch", "Paul Bonacci", "Lawrence King", "Michael Aquino")


Though some of the fictional Nifty.org stories are still very disgusting, NONE of them compare to a lot of real-life horrors that are way over the line of any sane person.

Some ppl may get off on BDSM fiction, or visit a dungeon sex club on a regular basis, or even adopt the lifestyle full time with a consenting partner.

Internet or not, it is one FUCKED UP SOLDIER, though, who would cage up random foreign men and dehumanize them with broomstick sodomy before piling their nude bodies up for sport photos.

 

[Green_Man_007]

killing and eating people is vile, abnormal, disgusting and illegal. yet silence of the lambs was a book and oscar winning film.

Though I'm a fan of sci-fi thrillers involving supernatural and alien creatures, I can't deal with watching anything to do with Hannibal Lector, polygamist cult leaders, Richard Perle, rapist crewmen on the Battlestar Pegasus, or any type of human characters who exhibit non-human capacity for evil.

 

[xsuperboy]

First time actually replying to a thread .... but let me just get this out. I might be completely off base.

The stories on the Nifty Archive are made up. Not real. At all.

People have a wide range of sexual fantasies, ranging from the common to the unbelievably deviant.

I just find it sort of ridiculous when people get on a moral high horse. Sex with kids is illegal, plain and simple, because they are not sexually mature and cannot give consent. We all agree on that.

But if you write a story involving an older man and a younger boy, it seems to me that it can be more about the power dynamic between the two. Of course, when someone writes about a personal fantasy where they are actually the ones anally assaulting the paper boy, it think it falls more into the category of ... well ... wow, the author probably really wants to get with the paper boy.

My point is that if you look at the Adult/Youth category in the Nifty archive ... it's like ... ridiculously huge. Given the statistics of actual pedophilia diagnosed in the States right now ... I find it hard to believe that only the pedophiles are getting off to these stories. Meaning that it could be your best friend. Or that creepy guy in the corner cubicle. Or you. Fact is, you probably wouldn't admit it if you did get off to them if you did.

Like I said ... I might be completely off base. I certainly don't get the attraction one could have for an eight year old .... but then again, I don't get the appeal of someone shitting on someone else's face.

Takes all kinds, I guess. As long as no one is getting hurt, and ACTUAL, flesh-and-blood children aren't being exploited ... leave it as it is. It IS just a story.

 

[gsdx]

They even have sections entitled "Young Friends" (stories about 8-12 year olds having hardcore adult sex where the writer exaggerates how functional a pre-pubescent penis can be) and "Adult Youth" focusing on cross-generational relationships (and you can figure out how that goes).

What is your impression of this? There are a lot of hot stories on Nifty, but there are also hundreds of stories I personally just can't stomach and click the "back" button as soon as I see "12" or "my 11 year-old son." Do you believe Nifty.org is a haven for disturbed men to write/read about pedophilia?

I just find it sort of ridiculous when people get on a moral high horse.

I don't think any of us are 'on a moral high horse'. We are simply responding to the original question as quoted above.

 

[Kulindahr]

Ask sex therapists, and get a load of different answers on this.
Some will tell you that there are pedophiles who are satisfied with stories and fantasies, so a site providing those is actually helping keep children safe... from those few, anyway. But ask others, and they will tell you that fantasizing about something inherently lowers the barriers to actually performing the act(s), that in essence (ask a sports coach!) imagining doing something, being excited about it, is actually practicing that action, preparing for it, becoming primed to do it.

Is it free speech? Of course!
Is it responsible speech? Uh... that comes down to each individual case. If indeed for some people getting off to the fantasy relieves the urge for some people and thus they never engage in the actual behavior, then Nifty is providing a public service (however distasteful to some). If indeed for many or most the fantasy only reinforces the tendency or desire to abuse children, then Nifty is causing a public nuisance, or something like that.

Personally, I never go to such sites. Now that I know the name, I'll avoid it. I avoid pictues of "models" who though certified at least eighteen look, as someone said, like they just sprouted their first pubic hairs. I avoid pictures of shaved genitals, because the only reason I can see for that is to make them look like little boys.
Do I avoid them because such pictures tempt me?
The answer is "yes", but not in the way you might think: they tempt me to be a vigilante. They make me want to go knock on the door of a man in this town who has over three hundred times committed sexual assault on boys under 12, with my 12-gauge in hand and a can of gasoline. They make me want to poison the legislators who pass "we're doing something" laws that confuse things to the point of letting such men as that local one live on the street, while sending an 18-y.o. boy to priosn for having sex with his 17-y.o. bf. And they make me think that there are a lot of politicians who ought to be rounded up and sent walking to China, on the sea bottom, because they spout slogans while doing nothing except persecuting responsible adults who just don't fit their moral spectrum.

End of rant... but even on a normal day, I think we should bring back the guillotine for producers of child porn, because to produce it they have to molest and abuse children.

As for Nifty... I'll stay away -- and it wouldn't hurt for someone to make a Wiki article describing just exactly what they do!

 

[quasar]

I think with a site like Nifty, there is always the danger that because there are stories involving minors published on the same site as legitimate stories involving adults, some people are going to take it as condoning sex with minors. I have always felt uncomfortable with some aspects of Nifty, and more recently with some other sites which have the 2257 disclaimer, but seem to have more and more images that are extremely disconcerting. I have always had an attraction for late teens - late twenties, but there are now several sites that I no longer visit - including perfectly respectable ones purely because so many models are shaved to within an inch of their life to look younger.

This has happened gradually over the years for this to become mainstream, but I really do worry where this is taking us in the future.

As for freedom of speech and expression, I'm all for it, but not when it involves manipulating minors, or providing material - written or visual - to feed paedophile's thoughts.

 

[blackbeltninja]

As for Nifty... I'll stay away -- and it wouldn't hurt for someone to make a Wiki article describing just exactly what they do!

Exactly what they do is host stories produced by amateur writers in a variety of different themes, subdivided specifically into gay, bisexual, lesbian and transgendered as main categories with further subcategories, one or two of which may be regarded as dubious by some people.

I urge everyone to approach this topic calmly before tarring the entire Nifty organisation and all its contributors and followers with the same sweepingly general brush. No point in cutting off your entire lower torso and legs because you've stubbed a toe, is there?

-d-

 

[gsdx]

I enjoy the stories involving incest, and so do many others. But I rarely go there anymore to read the stories because I must wade through dozens of links to find a story which doesn't involve a father having sex with his little boys. If a father and his college-aged son get together, that's great, but those stories are very few indeed.

There are some 'coming-of-age' stories involving teens, but they are still far outnumbered by the stories involving children.

I think the things that bothers me most about those stories is that they put the children in impossible situations and have them do things which they are not physically able to do. They also make the children much more mature than they should be. There is no 'innocence lost', because there was no innocence to begin with. Boys who are raped suffer no ill effects. Instead, they love it and go out looking for more from Dad's 'beer buddies', and Dad sits back and watches. They become maniacs for sex with grown men.

The only people who get turned on by stories like these are pedophiles, and, judging from the number of stories, there are a whole lot of pedophiles visiting there every day to get their daily dose of little-boy sex.

That sort of stuff is illegal on the news stands. Why is it legal on the internet?

 

[fuzzy64]

its really simple.....


If the subject matter offends you, then don't click on the link, nobody is forcing you to read the specific stories. I have been reading the stories on Nifty for secveral years now, never had a problem with it, even though those links have always been there.

 

[pjlikesporn]

its really simple.....


If the subject matter offends you, then don't click on the link, nobody is forcing you to read the specific stories. I have been reading the stories on Nifty for secveral years now, never had a problem with it, even though those links have always been there.

That is really simple--so long as the only thing we're concerned about is our own sensibilities. All of us on this forum are, by rule, over age 18, and so there's no danger of any of us being subject to pedophilia.

However, the question dealt with the larger problem of how these sites interact with or even encourage pedophilia. In order to combat pedophilia, we need to understand its roots, causes, and mindset to determine the best ways of curbing it and protecting children. If such threads do indeed contribute to pedophilia--and that issue is a big part of this thread--simply ignoring those sites or the offensive threads within them does little to solve the problem.

I'm all for live-and-let-live but only when the person we're talking about is mature enough to make decisions about things that can potentially cause them great harm.