No Need To Treat Terrorists Nicely

[barefootbob]

this is from a Star Trek Next Generation episode Drumhead


We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again." - Picard, to Worf

Mr. Worf, villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged." - Picard

"...she, or someone like her, will always be with us – waiting for the right climate in which to flourish. Spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mr. Worf; that is the price we have to continually pay." - Picard, to Worf


one man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist
one man's use of waterboarding is anothers use of torture

we have changed our way of life because of terrorism

bush has changed the way the constitution is viewed, bush has subverted the constitution and increased the presidential powers, he has thumbed his nose at jurisprudence .. all in the name of 'state security'

 

[chance1]

You shouldn't trust anyone. As I've said, I don't know how old you are but if I had to guess, I'd say early 20s. You'll learn someday.



George W Bush and Grim Reaper Cheney are NOT our system. They are the antithesis of the American system.



Based upon what evidence?



What price? Nobody in Bush's administration has paid the price for anything for 8 years.



I think you're just having some fun here. Nobody is this ignorant.

shouldn't trust anyone? no thanks - i'll pass - so far so good with trusting people - when u trust them, they trust u back - i suggest u reconsider ur position here if only just to be happier

u don't think our system is good? what a great country we have - maybe michelle obama doesn't think so but i do - and i think most people do - JUB is the outlier - complainers, whiners - the never happy types - again, when hillary/barack is pres - what ya gonna complain about? the weather?

god do i love this country

who's with me??????????

bush/cheney are one of many historical pres/vp teams - u don't like them - they were duly elected 2x and luckily (for u) they will be gone soon - very soon - not to worry - except it's gonna be tough when they're gone and u can't shit on them (at least not ALL the time)

based on what evidence? like i said, our judicial system is excellent - and i trust it - and if there are irregularities they get reviewed and if laws were broken, those responsible held responsible - god do i love our system - it is sooooooo good - think about it

 

[chance1]

Oh, and Chance, bollocks is the english word for balls (the male kind). But they use it in lots of other ways:

"He got a bollocking" (he was shouted at or beaten up).
"Bollocks!" (Bullshit!)
"I got bollocked down the pub." (I got drunk at the local bar).
"Waterboarding is bollocks" (Waterboarding is completely unacceptable)


Well... okay, the last one was a stretch...

thanks andy - appreciate the heads up

and i like ur avatar - what kind of dog is that? is that ur dog? i have a mini australian shepherd (not so mini) - love dogs

do u think i can use the word bollocks? i kinda like it

often on JUB, I get bollocked - or at least attempted bollocked

 

[socaldude]

Right on dude! As an American Im proud that we dont go about doing Vlad the Impaler stuff, but in the end, we are fighting fanatical terrorists, not an orderly army of a westphalian nationstate that will engage us nicely. Ideals are great but being practical really helps!

 

[Zingerific]

Im proud that we dont go about doing Vlad the Impaler stuff

LOL! I don't know, though; have you ever seen Dick Cheney in the daytime???

Ideals are great but being practical really helps!

1) I object to the premise that ideas and practice are necessarily in conflict. I believe that to be a false dichotomy, and one that I'm especially uncomfortable with, as it has been used in the past to justify some pretty ghastly things.

2) How have denying Habeas Corpus and denying legal representation helped at all? How is it practical? My argument from the begining is that it is flawed as a strategy, that it is counterproductive, and that it is not in the USA's best interest; I was even quite specific with my example of the Nuremberg and de-Nazification trials. On the other side, I've only heard vague assertions that "we have to get tough" and "times have changed." In my view, this is a visceral, knee-jerk response that leaves us worse off than when we started.

 

[chance1]

The mere fact that this debate continues, some 24 hours later, suggests that the OP, Chance simply has not got a clue how the greater world works... he thinks he does, but reality tells the majority to the contrary.

He's misguided, deluded, immature, and ignorant of the simplistic facts of the world.

Bless the boys soul....

so ur position is the only one that's valid

is that how it is across the pond ?

and i thought u put me on ignore? r u a man or ur word?

or just a man who thinks too highly of himself?

frankly i think ur post is bollocks



fish n' chips for all !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[andysayshi]

frankly i think ur post is bollocks

Now you've got the hang of it!

 

[chance1]

Chance, you may think my post is bollocks, but the fact is, that everyone here at JUB thinks your entire mindset is worse than bollocks (and i'll stick my nose into point territory on this one) it's total utter bull shit.

dude

im goofing with u - using bollocks - ur word - which i told u i kinda liked - and was nice to u - and ur response was to "ignore" me

now ur back and u weren't asked back

whatever

as for "everyone at JUB" - id be careful as to who U speak for

cuz ur statements that "u know the world" better than me - speaks for itself - as in ur not quite as humble as u should be

"everyone at JUB" - yeah - u got ur finger on the pulse my man

guess that's the way it is across the pond - at least with some - that "imperial" thingy

delusions of grandeur - loud and clear

i think that claim about "everyone at JUB" is ...........

bollocks

 

[Centexfarmer]

shouldn't trust anyone? no thanks - i'll pass - so far so good with trusting people - when u trust them, they trust u back - i suggest u reconsider ur position here if only just to be happier

u don't think our system is good? what a great country we have - maybe michelle obama doesn't think so but i do - and i think most people do - JUB is the outlier - complainers, whiners - the never happy types - again, when hillary/barack is pres - what ya gonna complain about? the weather?

god do i love this country

who's with me??????????

bush/cheney are one of many historical pres/vp teams - u don't like them - they were duly elected 2x and luckily (for u) they will be gone soon - very soon - not to worry - except it's gonna be tough when they're gone and u can't shit on them (at least not ALL the time)

based on what evidence? like i said, our judicial system is excellent - and i trust it - and if there are irregularities they get reviewed and if laws were broken, those responsible held responsible - god do i love our system - it is sooooooo good - think about it

I'm afraid that you're talking about the American "judicial system" as it applies to Americans, and NOT terrorists.

So technically we're back to square one on this topic.

Who defines who/what a terrorist is within OUR judicial system?

The mere fact that this debate continues, some 24 hours later, suggests that the OP, Chance simply has not got a clue how the greater world works... he thinks he does, but reality tells the majority to the contrary.

He's misguided, deluded, immature, and ignorant of the simplistic facts of the world.

Bless the boys soul....

Here in the American South, Texas to be specific, we'd say Poor thang, bless his pea-pickin' heart.

However, I'll make that reservation for you.

This thread was bumping along in a very civil Non-JUB-Sewer-like way until you got into the conversation.

What did you say?

He's misguided, deluded, immature, and ignorant of the simplistic facts of the world.

And for some crazy ass reason this medium doesn't allow for someone pulling a mirror off of the wall (read your other posts here on JUB), or out of their pocketbook to flash in another persons general direction.

Glass houses and such.

Please allow me to quote some of your posts just in this thread:

Precisely Andy.

Chance, you're so small minded, so narrow minded, so ignorant of the true facts and so blinded by your republican fed bullshit, that nothing we say on here, no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway you from your unblinkered path.

I feel so sorry for you, not knowing the true facts of the world. May god have mercy on your soul.

Everyone was keeping it civil until you decided to make things personal.

Thats rich coming from someone who hasnt travelled.

The point isnt how i feel about terrorists, i am as angry and disgusted about their ways as you are. The point you keep missing, and in this thread, you alone... is WHO makes the call that a person is a terrorist?

You're relying on one person, in a big office, who's already shown he has little to no understanding of how the world works, ultimately making the call... Now, i dunno about you, but i'm a fan of due process, Habeas Corpus and giving people the right to a fair trial.

If we have evidence which confirms that any given person is a terrorist, and is an enemy of the state, then yes, i'd be the first to suggest put them on trial, find them guilty, then let the laws of the land dictate (in the US i suspect this would be death).

However, to kidnap, detain and torture people, without having told them what they're suspected of, without giving them the chance to counter the charges against them, and ultimately the right to a trial, is just plain wrong. Morally, ethically, legally wrong.

That's not saying i support terrorism, it's not saying i want to "befriend a terrorist". It's about standing up for due process, something many of our ancestors died to acheive.

Put it this way Chance, imagine if you were arrested one morning... on ANY charge... what would you want?

A phone call? Details of what it is you're alleged to have done? Access to legal representation to guide you through the legal process? A chance to at least put your side of any story forward?

How pissed would you be if you were denied any and all of these.....held in prison, indefinately, without access to any of the above....

THATS what we're talking about.

Once someone has been found GUILTY of terrorism, then hell yeah, i'm with you... string em up, cut off their balls, gas em.... but at least lets make sure we follow due process.

Jesus H Christ Chance, i know more about the world out there than you do... wake up yourself sunshine!

Are you seeing a difference yet?

Here's another:

Who says your family member is a terrorist? Who says?

You just do not get it do you? Or if you do, you wont acknowledge it, because you know it just blows your stance clean out of the water!!

Say for argument sake, your brother (i dunno if you have one, but say you did)... was one day arrested, thrown in a cell..and left to rot. The government say he's a terrorist.

You gonna leave it at that?

If you say yes - you're full of shit. Totally, utterly full of shit.

You'd wanna know why! What he'd done, when he;d done it. You'd wanna see the proof to confirm he'd done it... your brother would want to see the evidence against him, he'd want a lawyer, he'd want a chance to argue against it... you'd want him to get those things.. as a brother.

You wouldnt just take Bush jnr's word for it and walk away.... and if you dare say you do, then you've just confirmed what we've all been thinking.. you're a god damned blithering idiot... cos no man in his right mind would just leave it at that.

And No, Chance - my stance makes it a much safer world for me and my loved ones... under my way, they'd get a phone call, a lawyer, a chance to hear the evidence against them, a chance to counter the evidence with their side of the story...

If they're then, found guilty by a jury, then they deserve any punishment they get (just as i do in my situation)... but they deserve the right to a fair trail and Habeas Corpus.

If you seriously think that my way makes the world a more dangerous place, you best remove your head from Bushs' rectum.

Now I'm not going out of my way to defend Chance1, he's a man he can take care of himself, but If you'll notice he's not once lashed out at anyone who's shown/proven a disagreement with his position here.

More?

Bye Chance, you've earnt a place on my ignore list.

I was hoping that would have been the end of it, but NO!

 

[Centexfarmer]

The mere fact that this debate continues, some 24 hours later, suggests that the OP, Chance simply has not got a clue how the greater world works... he thinks he does, but reality tells the majority to the contrary.

He's misguided, deluded, immature, and ignorant of the simplistic facts of the world.

Bless the boys soul....

As if your comments were going to shut this discussion down.

Which brings us fully back to square one of my last post.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Judging by the OP and the thread topic, I think chance thinks I'm a terrorist...

Wait, "earnt"?

Well?

Are you?!?





Because we still haven't determined "who" gets to decide!

 

[Centexfarmer]

Well, I can plead the fifth. So that must mean I'm not, because the Constitution applies to me, and apparently you can't be a terrorist when the Constitution applies to you.

... why are you loving this thread so much?

Because it doesn't involve Senators Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, John McCain, and their supporters/haters, and it's on a topic that may or may not change pending the election of either of the three listed, and because most of the posters in this thread (with the exception of the one that I pointed out) have been more civil toward each other than in any other thread that I've seen here of late.

*how's that for a run-on sentence?*

 

[andysayshi]

^ Amen. Save us from Obama/Hillary yawndome!!

 

[chance1]

Judging by the OP and the thread topic, I think chance thinks I'm a terrorist...

Wait, "earnt"?

and if so IC - im comfortable with u being waterboarded

take a deep breath

 

[IrishBilly]

there is a glaring difference between a terrorist and a protester, or an activist.

The term terrorist doesnt mean they dont have a governments support, ironiclaly most terrorist organizations do indeed have a government that supports them somewhere .

remember the IRA , not only a terrorist group, but one that many americans supported financially.

Terrorists target civilians, armys target governments and other armys.

When the Iranian government hangs boys for being gay is that then ok and justified because its not done by terrorists, but rather a ligitimate governmant ?

its all about personal persepctive in the end isnt it.

 

[Centexfarmer]

there is a glaring difference between a terrorist and a protester, or an activist.

The term terrorist doesnt mean they dont have a governments support, ironiclaly most terrorist organizations do indeed have a government that supports them somewhere .

remember the IRA , not only a terrorist group, but one that many americans supported financially.

Terrorists target civilians, armys target governments and other armys.

When the Iranian government hangs boys for being gay is that then ok and justified because its not done by terrorists, but rather a ligitimate governmant ?

its all about personal persepctive in the end isnt it.

Fine.

If you're going to resurrect a thread that died a nice quit death in our sleep, I'll address the question:

its all about personal persepctive in the end isnt it

I don't think so.

"To the victor go the spoils."

One Government's "terrorist" is another's "freedom-fighter."

Since this thread was first posted in early May of this year, SCOTUS has ruled/restored Habeas Corpus to them, much to the chagrin of those who support indefinite detention of so called "terrorists" or "enemies of the state," which didn't immediately imply that they'd be released, but that given their day in court.

It has since been pointed out, in regard to the Irish Republican Army, that keeping such individuals "captive" actually was used as a recruiting tool for the very element that this idea was meant to prevent; more "terrorists."

Aspects of this were recently discussed here in this piece from NPR:

Guantanamo Bay: 'School For Jihad'?

 

[Centexfarmer]

Judging by the OP and the thread topic, I think chance thinks I'm a terrorist...

Wait, "earnt"?

and if so IC - im comfortable with u being waterboarded

take a deep breath

Hm, this thread has someone admitting he'd love for me to be tortured. I don't care much for this one to be resurrected.

Seeing as how the original topic of this thread has nothing to do with your terrorist status, or any suggestions offered should you ever be water-boarded, it never really got off topic, despite efforts from some to do so.

See post #91, prior to your post #92, and the fact that you found an offense and didn't report it.

So, let's please allow the discussion to continue a new, unabated, and see where it takes us.

 

[Za-Ja-BoManner]

I know I'm really just jumping in here without reading the discussion, but I really think John McCain said it best a few years ago (although he's since changed his position) when asked if the Guantanamo detainees would need to be tried or released...McCain said:

"Even Adolf Eichmann got a trial."

No matter who it is, we have no right to torture or hold anyone indefinitely. They must be tried. The innocent (and yes there are innocent people there) must be set free, and the United States must live up to it's rhetoric and stop moving the goalposts for itself.

 

[chance1]

^^ can u imagine the circus of OBL being tried in the U.S.?

court tv
cnn

u know

interviewing his relatives?

i think not

u.s. courts r not for military/security matters

gotta be a better way

as for torture ..........

a little bit of arm twisting works

the critical issues is "what constitutes torture"

and that is a grey area

and will always be

and while we debate it ..........

terrorists will continue to try to kill us

that's the diff

between us and them


and feel free to jump anytime za-ja

the water's fine