NSA data mining

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Especially with bits like this:


So they violate the law in secret, and keep the rulings that they've violated the law secret....

...and with impunity....

 

[palbert]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Since you're obviously so good at research, see if you can run down the "confidential documents" Reuters and others seem to reference as the whole basis of their article but not actually provide. You clamor for all of this classified information from the government, but seem to give the media a pass in providing it for your review because their article just happens to support your anti-government position. They write these articles on how freedom is being violated and secrets are being kept, but they continuously reference "classified" or "sensitive" documents that they have but won't provide. It brings into question whether these documnts, in their entirety, actually disprove the point of the article they are writing.

Read. NRN.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

You misunderstand.

It's news because the NSA is not authorized to spy on Americans. But the DEA is using the NSA to spy on Americans. Both agencies are exceeding their authority, in violation of US law.

The United States is a nation of laws. Why aren't we enforcing them? You seem to have the opinion that obeying the law is optional for intelligence agencies. Why do you think that?

Did you read the article I linked from Reuters (the original source of the story)? The DEA is NOT using the NSA to spy on Americans. The only contributions NSA makes to the program, as stated in the article, is to provide foreign intercepts to the DEA for their enforcement. So if Drug Lord Bob in Colombia is heard saying that they are shipping 10 tons of cocaine to the US, then the NSA gives that info to the DEA. Everything else it said is compiled from various lawful sources based on subpoenas and warrants for wiretaps. Go back and read the article.

Especially with bits like this:


So they violate the law in secret, and keep the rulings that they've violated the law secret....

We will see when the ruling is released since the FISA court has said it can be released under FOIA.

Merely repaying with the same coin that you toss into the ring....knowing that your repetitive posts are designed to stonewall....a practice familiar to Republican supporters.

My arguments don't accuse people of crimes without proof. My arguments accuse people of making accusations without proof. The proof of that is in all of your posts, which you have yet to provide any evidence for. My replies don't stonewall anything. They are attempts to actually progress an informed argument by asking for evidence. You have yet to provide any so you are the one actually stonewalling.

Read. NRN.

Read what? I've read the articles and haven't found any links to the documents they reference.

 

[T-Rexx]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Did you read the article I linked from Reuters (the original source of the story)? The DEA is NOT using the NSA to spy on Americans. The only contributions NSA makes to the program, as stated in the article, is to provide foreign intercepts to the DEA for their enforcement.

According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rds-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rds-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/

The United States media actually confirming all that the UK media has been reporting for some months.

There are those who will continue to deny, stonewall and attempt to whitewash the snooping activities of the NSA on United States citizens....preferring to live in their Alice in Wonderland make believe world remote from reality.

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I have to agree with Tigerfan on this. So far there has been no evidence offered by anyone. And circumstantial evidence or conjucture do not build a case.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

According the The Washington Post, both the NSA and DEA are covering up the source of their leads. It is believed that the leads are coming from the bulk phone data the NSA is collecting on all Americans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...rds-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/

Exactly. That's why I linked to Reuters because they have less of a political agenda than the Washington Post or the Guardian. You also linked a Washington Post BLOG, which is highly opinionated, and it looks like the blog post has been updated with this"

Correction: This piece originally described the information provided to the DEA as “Section 702 phone records,” but the Reuters report doesn’t specifically identify the type of information shared. The article has been edited accordingly.

I love it when these stories like the one posted last week from the Daily Kos about this woman having her Google searches monitored by NSA and the terrorism task force visiting her house. They make the huge elaborate stories up about the NSA spying on them and them have to retract them because the truth starts to show.

The United States media actually confirming all that the UK media has been reporting for some months.

There are those who will continue to deny, stonewall and attempt to whitewash the snooping activities of the NSA on United States citizens....preferring to live in their Alice in Wonderland make believe world remote from reality.

I prefer to live in a fact-based, logical world and not some fantasy Orwellian world where the burden of proof for the government to show they're not spying on Americans is infinite and the burden of proof for anyone else to show the government is some evil bad guy is minuscule, if it exists at all. The US media hasn't confirmed anything. Operating off of a couple of quotes from "unnamed sources" and "recently obtained documents" that they refuse to print isn't confirmation of anything. It's the beginning of a good fictional spy novel.

And again, you are the the perfect example of stonewalling. In just about every post I've written in response to your's, I have asked for proof or evidence of any of your claims and you have yet to provide a single shred of it in any one of them and instead have just responded with half answers and philosophical retorts. That is the vey definition of stonewalling.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I prefer to live in a fact-based, logical world and not some fantasy Orwellian world
.

Your world is best described as deceptive, and in deep denial....garnished with spoonfuls of stonewalling....your choice, and you are welcome to its many self assumed fantasies.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

I have to agree with Tigerfan on this. So far there has been no evidence offered by anyone. And circumstantial evidence or conjucture do not build a case.

You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...

 

[Rolyo85]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...

Well then case closed, right? There is no evidence, therefore there is no crime. That's the principle on which the judicial system works in America and the rest of the civilized world.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Well then case closed, right? There is no evidence, therefore there is no crime. That's the principle on which the judicial system works in America and the rest of the civilized world.

Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.

 

[Rolyo85]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.

"Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

"Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.

This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.

 

[tigerfan482]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.

We don't need the NSA to provide evidence for anything. If Snowden had all of the access he claimed, he should have easily been able to get and provide evidence. As of now, he hasn't provided any so his claims of spying on Americans have no factual basis. All this is right now is paranoia and luckily it's limited to the people who already hate the government.

 

[Rolyo85]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.

It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Your world is best described as deceptive, and in deep denial....garnished with spoonfuls of stonewalling....your choice, and you are welcome to its many self assumed fantasies.

Having had conversations with Tigerfan, I can tell you that deception and denial are not the worlds neither Tigerfan nor I live in.

You really expect the NSA to provide the media and Congress with "impeachable" evidence that convicts it of transgressing The Constitution...

I do not expect the NSA to provide anyone with anything without a court order. I do not expect any government office to provide anything to anyone without a court order.

Evidence sufficient to convict is not yet available...but the evidence that Edward Snowden has made available indicates that the evidence is being with held for obvious reasons.

Edward Snowden has not offered any evidence of any wrongdoing by the NSA or anyone else. The only thing Edward Snowden has offered is hearsay testimony. The only thing Edward Snowden has offered proof of is that there was a warrant issued to gather metadata. He has not issued proof that this data was being used in any way.

This forum is not a tribunal...no one is being tried here....the issue is clear.... that sufficient evidence has been provided by a former employee of the NSA indicating (I choose my words very carefully) that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens....were absolute courtroom level proof currently available confirming Edward Snowden's revelations you and me would not be having this exchange....further, absolute courtroom proof is not necessary to persuade the general public that the NSA is snooping on United States citizens...were we to wait upon the release of courtroom level proof from an organisation that maintains a high level of secrecy in its operations it could be said we might have to wait until Hell freezes over.

Okay, first, Snowden was not an employee of the NSA. He was he employee of a contractor who had a contract with the NSA. This employee of the contractor has offered no evidence, only hearsay testimony and conjecture. If constitutionally acceptable evidence were available, we would be watching a trial in the media and in the courts. You are correct, constitutionally acceptable evidence of a crime is not necessary to convict in the court of public opinion, just look at the United States Tabloids, the general public will believe anything you tell them. You are not arguing to the general public in this forum. There is a reason we are typing words in this forum instead of watching the drivel on network television. I was a sociology major in college. I put an emphasis on the criminology component of Sociology, and I have taken many college level criminology classes. I also happen to read mysteries, and write fiction in the mystery genre. The facts in this so called case, are insufficient for me as a criminologist, Do not provide a believable story line as a mystery reader, and fail to give me any thing to work with as a writer. I WRITE FICTION, and this isn't enough for me to work with to write a good story.

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

"Indicates" is suspicion. Suspicion is not proof. Without proof - whether withheld or simply imaginary - there is no case, and without a case this conversation is pointless. You can think whatever you want. But until you have something actual and specific, something not "indicated" but proven, you have no base to stand on in the conversation.

It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.

"Indicates" is marginally, suspicion. One "indicates" is coincidence. Two or three "indicates" may give suspicion, and might be enough to follow the "suspect" down the street to see if he throws anything on the sidewalk that could be considered "evidence". Then, if you see him throw it on the ground, and you protect the "chain of custody", it becomes evidence. But evidence can be refuted. Just because you saw him throw it on the ground, doesn't mean that he wrote it he could have gotten it from any number of sources.

Yes, there is a mistrust of the government that pervades our society. It doesn't help public perception when some members of the government, specific individuals or entities, do things that erode public perception. Things like partisanship and illegal acts further erode trust in the government. So, yes, there is some government mistrust. There are degrees, personally, I do not feel like my government is out to get me, but I know that there are individuals in the government who would have no problem subverting resources at their disposal to benefit themselves or other individuals or entities around them. And we have to admit that a biased media does contribute to the public mistrust a great deal.

 

[cm98059]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

We don't need the NSA to provide evidence for anything. If Snowden had all of the access he claimed, he should have easily been able to get and provide evidence. As of now, he hasn't provided any so his claims of spying on Americans have no factual basis. All this is right now is paranoia and luckily it's limited to the people who already hate the government.

Actually, currently, the evidence would have to come from a source other than Snowden, His chain of custody has been violated more times than a rent boy.

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

Okay, first, Snowden was not an employee of the NSA. He was he employee of a contractor who had a contract with the NSA. This employee of the contractor has offered no evidence, only hearsay testimony and conjecture.

That a contractor paid by the NSA, paid Snowden's salary in no way invalidates the fact that Edward Snowden's work with the NSA enabled him to have access to material that the United States deemed sufficiently sensitive to demand his extradition from Russia. Were Snowden's access to NSA secrets per his revelations not damaging to the NSA why would the United States authorities want to prosecute him?

Were fiction the matter under discussion on this thread we would not be holding this discussion. Were Snowden's damaging revelations fictional the United States authorities would not be demanding Snowden's extradition..were fiction the issue President Obama would not have cancelled his visit to Moscow.

If the matter under discussion here were mere hearsay, and conjecture Congress would not have debated the matter.

Damage control is of paramount importance for the NSA to enable this agency to continue its practice of snooping on United States citizens without credible oversight from Congress....and it is succeeding....for there are those Americans determined that the NSA should continue with its deceptive practices....for national security purposes......

 

[kallipolis]

Re: NSA data mining shared with the DEA

It's not a tribunal, but then again it shouldn't be a gossip column either, don't you agree? I respect your careful use of words but I disagree with the statement they frame, and if there is no proof for it, this becomes just completely pointless.

And we both know that NO proof AT ALL is necessary to convince the general public that the NSA is snooping on US citizens. US citizens think their government is out to get them 24/7.

Gay sites are notorious for their gossiping ....this site is no exception.....for it thrives on gossiping.