Obama must use Constitution to raise debt ceiling

[evanrick]

Its time we stopped looking at this budget debate through a political lens.

Realize a vast majority of the American people would support raising taxes to fix the budget deficit than people who would go with cuts only.

Even more people would support doing both, but a very small minority will support cuts only.

Its clear people don't want small government, if conservatives did they would agree to cuts to in the budget not including social programs, and if democrats did they would agree to cutting social programs, which they are not.

Tax breaks and subsides for oil companies were the FIRST THING republicans and democrats agreed on. Neither party wants to raise taxes, but taking away subsidies and giveaways (the bailout) for big oil and the rich is something both parties will support.

If the tea-party CONSERVATIVES are determined to protect the wealthy and corporate welfare, let the President invoke the 14th amendment saying the debt is vaild and cannot be questioned. The deficit is created by congress, the courts would rule that by allowing defense appropriations the congress knew full well it was facing default and cannot use denying a credit increase as an excuse to not fund programs already in place.

You voted for a spending bill, you cannot now say you want out of it because it suits your political needs. Im fairly certain the President will say something along these lines very soon.

This will take the burden of governing off the GOP since they clearly do not want to govern, and allow the President to make a good argument about why the debt ceiling is going up.

Bill Clinton and Senator McConnell have already voiced support for such a maneuver, I dont think you need any more endorsement than that. The Tea Party will be shown that they cant act recklessly when the FF&C of the USA is in question.

You can argue that congress has to pass such a proposal, but it has a lot better chance of getting though congress than anything Obama would propose.

 

[jackoroe]

Your premise that people even want the debt ceiling increased is absolutely false. 42% do not want an increase and a rather pitiful 22% support an increase. http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/debt-ceiling-increase-remains-unpopular-americans.aspx

So any suppositions that you make after this false assumption are pretty much irrelevant, would you not agree?

If Obama, who claims to be a Constitutional scholar, had the authority to raise it on his own, is he not in violation of his oath of office by not doing so?

 

[evanrick]

Your premise that people even want the debt ceiling increased is absolutely false. 42% do not want an increase and a rather pitiful 22% support an increase. http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/debt-ceiling-increase-remains-unpopular-americans.aspx

So any suppositions that you make after this false assumption are pretty much irrelevant, would you not agree?

If Obama, who claims to be a Constitutional scholar, had the authority to raise it on his own, is he not in violation of his oath of office by not doing so?

Is congress not in violation if they refuse to honor our debt?

Fine, dont raise the debt ceiling, raise taxes like people want.

But don't believe me or even the right-leaning Washington Post, believe the American people.

Heres a poll from THREE DAYS AGO

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ebt-reduction/2011/07/12/gIQAnTOrOI_blog.html

 

[jackoroe]

Let's stop with this tortured interpretation of the 14th Amendment. The power to raise money by taxation and the authority to pay the debt and to borrow any money rests solely with Congress, not the president. Here it is very clearly spelled out for you.

http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html

Now if Obama decides to ignore the Constitution, yet again, he'll most likely be running for re-election while facing an impeachment trial. Given the fact that people don't want the debt ceiling raised by a 20% margin, he wouldn't dare.

 

[BostonPirate]

actually lets have a new poll that reflects hpow people feel now that the GOP shenanigans are in full swing. Once again, they made an issue of something and the people of the country decided they were wrong after they TRIED to explain themselves

this article is dated the 20th of this month... YESTERDAY

.The survey found that 38 percent of Americans think that Congress should raise the debt ceiling compared to 31 percent that said the debt ceiling should not be raised. Another 30 percent said they don't know enough to have an opinion.

The results of the latest survey reflect a turnaround from a poll conducted in June, when 39 percent said that the debt ceiling should not be raised and 28 percent said it should be raised.

http://www.rttnews.com/Content/PoliticalNews.aspx?Node=B1&Id=1669588

so that puts to bed the new lie of the week that the GOP is peddling that the people dont want this to happen,

The TEA PARTY doesn't want this to happen, not really anyone else.

A plurality of americans do support the raising of the debt ceiling.

as for the constitution, there is already a consortium of Harvard law professors that are going to sue the United states over the constitutional discrepancy of requiring the exec branch to pay for all debts incurred by the legislature, yet require that he also be given permission to do so.

This puts the president in violation of the law everytime the CONGRESS raises the debt, in this case due to a failure to raise the revenue it needs to pay for what it orders the president to pay for.

This is over, and the only thing that is tortured right now is the twisting and turning that the "constitutional" tea baggers are contorting their actions into.... they believe in a strict interpretation of the law and believe that many of the amendments go too far, yet simultaneously try to amend the constitution themselves... how many times in the last six months? three times????

As for who put us here in the first place, I have a nifty graphic that tells the entire story for us....

tell the republican chumps that made this mess to raise the taxes on the assholes that stole all the money out of the pockets of the middle class. The lie that raising revenue falls flat in the face of actually history and events that prove otherwise.

 

[jackoroe]

So if he has the support of the American people and the Constitution is on his side, why the debate? Just go ahead and do it. I don't ask permission to exercise my rights, do you?

Funny thing, I couldn't find the Obama plan anywhere to make a judgment on it. Maybe you could post it with all the specific cuts and increases so we could all take a look at it. I'm sure it's right there with last years budget that the democrats never proposed.

Let's take a stroll down memory lane. Way back to 2006, when the anointed one said this.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.” - Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), March 20, 2006

So tell me, BP, was he bullshitting us then or is he bullshitting us now?

 

[BostonPirate]

the bipartisan commision report that the gang of six were working to turn into legislation jack...

http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sit...files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/gangofsix.pdf

interesting reading, jack

Enjoy!

 

[MoltenRock III]

Bill Clinton has said for the past few days he would use the emergency powers of the Presidency to raise the debt ceiling "without hesitation, and force the courts to stop [him]".

Clinton went on to say, “I think the Constitution is clear and I think this idea that the Congress gets to vote twice on whether to pay for [expenditures] it has appropriated is crazy.”


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...d-raise-the-debt-ceiling-using-14th-amendment

 

[jackoroe]

Bill Clinton has said for the past few days he would use the emergency powers of the Presidency to raise the debt ceiling "without hesitation, and force the courts to stop [him]".

Clinton went on to say, “I think the Constitution is clear and I think this idea that the Congress gets to vote twice on whether to pay for [expenditures] it has appropriated is crazy.”


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...d-raise-the-debt-ceiling-using-14th-amendment

Maybe the perjurer in chief should try reading the document. From Article 1, Section 8, which outlines the powers of Congress.

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

It's indisputable that the authority rests with Congress. But I hope that Obama goes ahead and does it anyway. I suspect he knows better, otherwise he would have done it already.

 

[BostonPirate]

Jack, if you have a problem with the way congress appropriates funds, I suggest you call your congressmen in the house and tell them to write a real balanced budget that the other duly elected representatives of the people will consider and sign.

This idea that the tea party is the ONLY group that doesn't have to compromise to pass bills is immoral and unamerican IMO.

The congress told the president to pay the bills in a certain way, and now they are trying to stop him from fulfilling his obligations. Scotus has already had their say on this issue....

The Fourteenth Amendment, in its fourth section, explicitly declares: 'The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law , … shall not be questioned.' While this provision was undoubtedly inspired by the desire to put beyond question the obligations of the government issued during the Civil War, its language indicates a broader connotation. We regard it as confirmatory of a fundamental principle which applies as well to the government bonds in question, and to others duly authorized by the Congress, as to those issued before the amendment was adopted. Nor can we perceive any reason for not considering the expression 'the validity of the public debt' as embracing whatever concerns the integrity of the public obligations.

Those are the exact words of the supreme court, in Perry v. United States (1935)

They are simple and they are direct. No law shall stop the executiuve from paying the debt that the congress has legislated as payable.

 

[jackoroe]

Sorry, it doesn't touch on the authority of Congress to borrow. If that's the case, Obama should simply go ahead and do what he wants. Why then doesn't he? Because the right isn't there and he knows it.

 

[BostonPirate]

Sorry, it doesn't touch on the authority of Congress to borrow. If that's the case, Obama should simply go ahead and do what he wants. Why then doesn't he? Because the right isn't there and he knows it.

I dont quite understand the question. We have one very sucessful president clinton, a dead president, Reagan, and a host of constitutional lawyers stating clearly in unison with scotus, that the president MUST pay the debt the congress obligates the nation to pay, and congress cannot make laws that stop him from doing so.

Once again... call your congressmen and tell them to write a bill that can get through the senate and to the desk of the exec for a signature.

If congress wants to not breach the debt ceiling, then write budgets that dont do it.

Scotus is quite clear.

The treasury has to find the means to pay the bills that the congress instructs them to. This is NOT new spending, and the tea party wants to re litigate what was passed by the congress.

They cannot do that without repealing the bills THEY wrote to cause the overage.

 

[jackoroe]

Here's where your argument falls flat. The Constitution inarguably gives the sole authority to Congress to tax, spend and to borrow.

The tortured souls who are feebly attempting to make a 14th Amendment argument contend that the president may arbitrarily borrow in order to pay the bills. OK, let's for the moment accept that to be the case for purposes of this discussion.

The same section of the Constitution specifically empowers Congress the right to tax. Since you have argued that the president may ignore the section which gives Congress the sole right to borrow, why then may he not simply ignore the section regarding taxation and impose new and or higher taxes to pay for his programs?

Since you argue on behalf of one, how then can you not support the other and remain intellectually honest?

 

[BostonPirate]

it DOES NOT give them the right to not pay a debt that they have incurred.

Furthermore, it instructs, it REQUIRES the executive branch, namely the treasury, to pay all debts the congress creates, and the Supreme court of america says so, and has instructed congress and the exec to consider all debts it incurs as non negotiable and payable. There is NO WIGGLE ROOM.

IF you write the law that tells the treasury to pay for something, you cannot write a law that restricts its ability to do as told.

Anyone who wants to twist logic to get around the true legal requirements of the government are playing mind games with themselves to rationalize an unconstitutional and illegal practice.

once again...

Tell the people you elected to write a bill that doesn't spend so much. I would suggest you start with their idea that the dept of defense and the dept of homeland security need more money when they already consume well over half of the discretionary spending, and Mr Gates specifically asked them to give him millions of dollars less than they decided to give him for the armed forces.

we are two grown men, and we know what this is all about. 80 people who are in the tea party caucus, are trying to subvert the laws and the constitution, because they cannot get what they want by doing it the legal way.

See what happens when you have to put your protest signs down and write laws?

You find out that things are not as you pretend, or as FOX news has informed you of.

 

[Lostlover]

I always said that a certain group of voters are like suicide bombers. They're trying to take everyone to hell with them. It looks like the people they voted in have taken note. Obama has given them the cuts they want and more.

Wasn't the suicide bomber comparison accurate?

 

[BostonPirate]

I always said that a certain group of voters are like suicide bombers. They're trying to take everyone to hell with them. It looks like the people they voted in have taken note. Obama has given them the cuts they want and more.

Wasn't the suicide bomber comparison accurate?

This is a party layout of who created the debt and who runs deficits that cause them. The same party that created the vast majority of the debt we owe now want to stop the treasury from paying for it.

well thats not how it works. The republicans need to find a better way to solve this issue than turn the entire nation into a deadbeat creditor who has no intention of paying for this crap.

THEY ran up this debt and now they are saying we dont have to pay it, and its FAR from conservative philosophy. It is anarchistic. It is designed to destroy the nation so that once again they can play the bait and switch and blame someone else for creating the mess they created.

It is WRONG to run up the credit card and then just say... oh well , we decided not to pay... sorry.

 

[jackoroe]

I absolutely agree, they need to not spend so much. But which of the statists from either party of doing that? McConnell, Boehner, Reid, Pelosi? Not one of them. They all want the party to keep on rolling and it's time to stop it dead in it's tracks. Maybe we can all sit around and wait for the Obama plan that will cut 4 trillion someday and somewhere, but he's not sure when or where.

No more bullshit promises to make cuts 10 years down the road. It's got to be done and done now.

If Obama thinks he got the juice to raise the debt ceiling let him shit or get off the pot.

 

[Lostlover]

I absolutely agree, they need to not spend so much. But which of the statists from either party of doing that? McConnell, Boehner, Reid, Pelosi? Not one of them. They all want the party to keep on rolling and it's time to stop it dead in it's tracks. Maybe we can all sit around and wait for the Obama plan that will cut 4 trillion someday and somewhere, but he's not sure when or where.

No more bullshit promises to make cuts 10 years down the road. It's got to be done and done now.

If Obama thinks he got the juice to raise the debt ceiling let him shit or get off the pot.

Lmao. It's now, now, now with Obama. Bush launched the trillion dollar war and Cheney said "deficits don't matter" and now Obama has to reverse their overspending?

Seriously?

 

[BostonPirate]

I absolutely agree, they need to not spend so much. But which of the statists from either party of doing that? McConnell, Boehner, Reid, Pelosi? Not one of them. They all want the party to keep on rolling and it's time to stop it dead in it's tracks. Maybe we can all sit around and wait for the Obama plan that will cut 4 trillion someday and somewhere, but he's not sure when or where.

No more bullshit promises to make cuts 10 years down the road. It's got to be done and done now.

If Obama thinks he got the juice to raise the debt ceiling let him shit or get off the pot.

the CBO has the gang of Six's bill, and it is filling in all the blanks with accurate numbers so that no side can say its doing something that its not.

And this exposes the whole.. "give me the details" argument and also exposes the goobers from both parties that say "it has no specific ammounts" as either dishonest or unable to understand the way bills are made.

The CBO HAS to have a go at every bill before it can hit the committees for discussion. Bills cannot have EXACT amounts in it until the CBO informs the congress what the proposed cuts actually mean in real dollars.

As for down the road instead of today, that is irresponsible. The recovery has to continue, and the cuts need to be measured in increments and put in place, and a decade is far faster than most believe is healthy. I think that it will be difficult, but at least it will get done, and the generation that voted in the spenders in will have to face the cuts that their wrong choices at the polls.

To balance the budget overnight means that 44 percent of the entire budget needs to disappear overnight. Its unsound economically. It would cause a shock to the system, and it would send the country into economic depression.

To ballance the budget, you need to work at it consistently year after year, and you need to keep writing bills that don't overspend, while increasing revenue.

The wealthy of the nation saw a 400 percent increase in their wealth as the country spiralled into debt.

Its time to give some of that cash back that they stole with the help of the GOP. Shall we have a look at that graphic again?

How do you justify the fact that the same party that created the vast majority of this wealth is now pretending that it is the presidents fault for it?

 

[BostonPirate]

in general, which of the following statements comes closest to your view: (READ IN ORDER.
DO NOT RANDOMIZE.)
July 18-20
2011

You FAVOR raising the debt ceiling even if Congress
and President Obama do not agree on a plan to
reduce the amount the government owes 17%

You FAVOR raising the debt ceiling only if Congress
takes action to reduce by trillions of dollars the
amount the government owes 45%

You OPPOSE raising the debt ceiling even if Congress
takes action to reduce the amount the government owes 36%

No opinion 3%

Based on what you have read or heard about the discussions between Congress and Barack Obama
on the debt ceiling, do you think Obama has or has not acted responsibly?
July 18-20
2011

Yes, has acted responsibly 52%

No, has not 46%

No opinion 2%

Based on what you have read or heard about the discussions between Congress and Barack Obama
on the debt ceiling, do you think the Republicans in Congress have or have not acted responsibly?

July 18-20
2011

Yes, have acted responsibly 33%

No, have not 63%

No opinion 3%

If the debt ceiling is not raised, do you think that Barack Obama or the Republicans in Congress
would be more responsible for that?
July 18-20
2011

Obama 30%

Republicans 51%

Both (vol.) 15%

Neither(vol.) 3%

No opinion 1%

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/07/21/rel11b.pdf

according to this poll, 62 percent of americans want the debt ceiling raised in some form, and the same amount also blames the GOP foracting irresponsibly.

that link goes to an extensive and in depth poll that was completed Yesterday and just released. ITs a good read and I just wanted to put this here to help highlight the facts, and reinforce the last poll with another one that shows even MORE blame is currently being aimed at the GOP as this draws out day after day.

The obstructionism is old and stale, and the american people are over it.

THe GOP is virtually insuring their absense in the next congress as a majority.

whatever the GOP illusions are that they are acting on behalf of the people, its clear that the people are not happy with that belief and disagree with them.