Obama pressures Israel -- will they respond like an ally?

[Lostlover]

Will Israel listen to it's "closest" ally? Obama demanded that they halt building settlements.

On the day Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas met with President Obama to promote the pan-Arab peace plan, Israelis are concerned over an apparent shift in policy toward them from their closest ally.


U.S. Senator and Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., right, meets with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu on Capitol Hill in Washington, June 21, 2007.

Israel no longer has carte blanche. No more AIPAC in the Oval Office.

Just time before Obama is called anti-Semitic.

I think we'll find out soon, that Israel answers to no one, including the US.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7694664&page=1

 

[hotatlboi]

Well, they have for now already refused to consider a two state solution. So this isn't the first difference of opinion they have with Obama.

 

[FabFairy]

I think it is about time the US stopped give Israel carte blanche. I also think that the US should not have become involved in the first place.

No third party will be able to solve any problems in the Middle East. It will require the 2 parties to find their own solution. In 1948 the state of Israel after being set up then displaced and murdered thousands of Arabs who occupied the land and is now no more than an Apartheid state.

I find it strange that after being treated so badly by the nazi's why they would then treat the Palastines the same or even worse. But then perhaps this is the real reason nothing more than a disgraceful and dishonest land grab.

As seen by this picture:

If you can't see the picture and would like to see the picture it is in my gallery under Post images

Unfortunately I feel that Israel has lied so much and not admitted to it's stupidity that it will not help really solve any problems. Israel has gone out of it way to steal all the land and that is the real issue. As for America it has stood by and allowed this to happen. Everytime something goes wrong there seem to be an attitude that it has to be the Palastinians which is totally wrong.

I, now pose a question if another country were given access to the US how would American's react if a land grant was permitted to the new citizens then they systematically displaced everyone how then would you feel?

My guess is pissed and if that is the case then why would you support Isreal killing off it citizens (Palastinians) because that has or is what is happening. I don't think either side is right but both sides need to really made an effort to solve it's problems. Getting others to do it wont make it right.

No wonder they are pissed and want to kill off the jewish state - The jew's have gone out of its way to demonise anyone and everyone who is against the because of there own actions.

 

[HenryReardon]

I think it is about time the US stopped give Israel carte blanche. I also think that the US should not have become involved in the first place.

No third party will be able to solve any problems in the Middle East. It will require the 2 parties to find their own solution. In 1948 the state of Israel after being set up then displaced and murdered thousands of Arabs who occupied the land and is now no more than an Apartheid state.

I find it strange that after being treated so badly by the nazi's why they would then treat the Palastines the same or even worse. But then perhaps this is the real reason nothing more than a disgraceful and dishonest land grab.


.

The problem with what you've posted is that it's all bovine excreta. Totally.

This excerpt is from an article that has been posted in full in these forums in the recent past:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that's where the real fun is--but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel--or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it--for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

 

[naked gent]

The problem with what you've posted is that it's all bovine excreta. Totally.

Henry how come you use UN resolutions as a legal reason to invade Iraq but don't mind if Israel routinely violates them by expanding its settlements?

 

[opinterph]

This excerpt is from an article that has been posted in full in these forums in the recent past:

I don’t find where this article has been posted in full in these forums lately, but I do note that you have published excerpts from it at least twice:

• January 19, 2009: http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4716371&postcount=45
  
• December 29, 2008: http://www.justusboys.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4627566&postcount=52

This essay about the Arab-Israeli conflict has been widely circulated via the Internet. The writing is often erroneously attributed to comedian Dennis Miller; however, it was actually published in the Weekly Standard by comedian Larry Miller in April 2002.

Lawrence J. “Larry” Miller (born October 15, 1953) is an American stand-up comedian, actor and columnist who frequently portrays babbling, obsequious yes-men, slightly odd friends, wisecracking professionals and other second-banana characters to headlining comedians in movies and television shows. [Wiki]

The version circulating on the Internet omits a four-paragraph lead-in about the ludicrosity of anyone named Cohen’s defending Hamas … It also leaves off the five-paragraph finish … The core of the article – the “brief overview” – is reproduced faithfully. [Snopes]

Here’s the original source: Whosoever Blesses Them​

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

^ The answer to the question in the OP is; only if Obama has enough to offer the Israelis, or something bad enough to threaten them with, and this only if the people who back him have reason to support him.

In other words: I doubt it.

 

[Lostlover]

I think it is about time the US stopped give Israel carte blanche. I also think that the US should not have become involved in the first place.

No third party will be able to solve any problems in the Middle East. It will require the 2 parties to find their own solution. In 1948 the state of Israel after being set up then displaced and murdered thousands of Arabs who occupied the land and is now no more than an Apartheid state.

I find it strange that after being treated so badly by the nazi's why they would then treat the Palastines the same or even worse. But then perhaps this is the real reason nothing more than a disgraceful and dishonest land grab.

As seen by this picture:

If you can't see the picture and would like to see the picture it is in my gallery under Post images

Unfortunately I feel that Israel has lied so much and not admitted to it's stupidity that it will not help really solve any problems. Israel has gone out of it way to steal all the land and that is the real issue. As for America it has stood by and allowed this to happen. Everytime something goes wrong there seem to be an attitude that it has to be the Palastinians which is totally wrong.

I, now pose a question if another country were given access to the US how would American's react if a land grant was permitted to the new citizens then they systematically displaced everyone how then would you feel?

My guess is pissed and if that is the case then why would you support Isreal killing off it citizens (Palastinians) because that has or is what is happening. I don't think either side is right but both sides need to really made an effort to solve it's problems. Getting others to do it wont make it right.

No wonder they are pissed and want to kill off the jewish state - The jew's have gone out of its way to demonise anyone and everyone who is against the because of there own actions.

We actually can be a force of good if we stop looking at whom we think is more like us and siding with them. Or who can fill up our pockets more than the other. Or who has a larger percentage of the US population.

But, what will convince Israel with nukes to want to negotiate peace? They have all the power. Why gives some away for a threat they've truly weakened by building that illegal "security" fence.

You're spot on. Any type of criticism will get you called an anti-Semite(even though Palestinians are Semites too). And it's worked so well too.

It's gotten to a point where you have to preface everything you say with states about the cruelty of the Holocaust. Of course, no sane human condones genocide. But we're not in the 1930's.

Am I not the only one disgusted when people say out country was founded on "Judeo-Christian values". Why not include Islam in that since they're all Abrahamic religions.

 

[FabFairy]

Lostlover I agree that the US and any other country can be a force for good but in this instance it is only making matters worse. And who gave them Nukes?

2 state solution is the best and even tho they may have been offered this what was the reason it was knocked back. I bet it was for some reason that would make it impossible to achieve.

Well HenryReardon my post ain't cow shit and if you would like to post a proper response we would like to see it

 

[Lostlover]

^ Whoa buddy you're putting a lot on your plate.

I vowed not to intercede on this thread, but had a few things to say.

I don't believe anybody here is Anti-Semitic, and such name calling does an injustice to rational discussions. I have always tried to discuss things rationally and not from a heated, emotional perspective. So it is my purpose to do people justice, and not ram things down other people's throats simply becaause I disagree with them. So from there let me just address a few things I do disagree with:

In what manner is Israel "like us"? Is it because they're a democracy and that's why we support them? Or because they're allegedy white? (which is false) Doesn't explain why we support the Saudi Arabian monarchy, for one. Do elaborate.

What will convince you Israel has negotiated for Peace, many times. The Palestinians have never recognized the existence of an Israeli state, but Netanyahu is being urged to recognize a Palestinian state (something for which I believe he should do as well) But you must understand the reluctance.
That chart is misleading too, as I hope we all know. The UN Partitian plan never came to fruition, because the Arab states did not want to recognize a Jewish state - so they declared war on Israel in 1948 and tried to invade.

The third phase is also misleading, because those areas, the West Bank and Gaza, were annexed by Jordan and Egypt, respectively. Incidentally, the former tried wiping out any sense of the term "Palestinian" because they did not want to give the Palestinians their own state either.

Suffice it to say, I do support a safe, secure, autonomous and prosperour homeland for these people, these humans, who have been at the brunt of things for so long.

Finally, I believe "Judeo-Christian values" is a frivolous term, and no such term should be applied, because there's no such thing.

You'll have to ask the powerful white politicians why they support Israel to the detriment of our country's reputation. I have a feeling that a false sense of Israel's "whiteness" has to do with some of their support. As well as a genuine concern about a country's welfare. A country that was founded as part of an answer to the Holocaust.

In looking through things in terms of the Holocaust, you can justify doing almost anything.

Why would you expect the Palestinians to recognize Israel when they believe land was stolen from them? How in the world could you possibly expect them to recognize that?

I believe Israel stole land. Why is it up to the powerless, army less Palestinians to make concessions?

Not to sounds like a broken record, but I think Israel's steadfast support from America will lessen over time. I don't know of anyone my age that could possibly support anything Israel's doing unless they're Jewish and or totally unaware of the atrocities and mistreatment of a people.

 

[Lostlover]

Lostlover I agree that the US and any other country can be a force for good but in this instance it is only making matters worse. And who gave them Nukes?

2 state solution is the best and even tho they may have been offered this what was the reason it was knocked back. I bet it was for some reason that would make it impossible to achieve.

Well HenryReardon my post ain't cow shit and if you would like to post a proper response we would like to see it

We gave a lotta people things we should have never given them (Saddam and biological & chemical weapons. Taliban and missiles.). It's easy for Americans to forget, but the number 2 man (DICK Cheney) just 5 months ago believed Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and that he should have stayed in prison to keep diamond prices low (absolutely true).

Seriously, go on campus Cheney and start speaking through a megaphone about how much of a terrorist Nelson Mandela is. See how far that flies.

We're going through a generational change right now in America. Some of our old ugly ways of siding with the wrong side hopefully will change too.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Pearl's of wisdom from an Israeli citizen: There are actually four sides to this debate.

The lustre of Jewish wisdom seems noticably lacking in resolving this conflict, which is demonstated by the history that you profess to know so much better than any of the other posters in this thread.

I feel that Obama doesn't (yet) inspire enough confidence in any of the parties in the region for him to succeed in doing anything.

 

[rareboy]

In the end, all is dust.

The means to resolve the conflict have always been there.

Just not the intellectual or emotional will.

And that is why, after 4000 years the conflict is endless.

 

[jackoroe]

Because pigs have wings?

How come Zionist supporters turn deaf and dumb at the fact that Israel refuses to sign the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons? Then again, North Korea refuses to sign, but wingers have a different take on that similarity between NK and Israel, too, dontchaknow.

Most normal people have the ability to differentiate between the type of people running North Korea and the people running Israel. One having nukes should cause us pause. The other, not so much.

 

[MystikWizard]

You'll have to ask the powerful white politicians why they support Israel to the detriment of our country's reputation.

You and I both know the answer to that .... money and AIPAC.

I have a feeling that a false sense of Israel's "whiteness" has to do with some of their support. As well as a genuine concern about a country's welfare. A country that was founded as part of an answer to the Holocaust.

In looking through things in terms of the Holocaust, you can justify doing almost anything.

Why would you expect the Palestinians to recognize Israel when they believe land was stolen from them? How in the world could you possibly expect them to recognize that?

I believe Israel stole land. Why is it up to the powerless, army less Palestinians to make concessions?

It is sickening that all of this battle is really over Land. And the leadership of both sides of this issue uses Religion to essentially brainwash its citizens to give each of them Purpose to continue fighting this conflict.

Clearly, the Muslims don't want to recognize the time that the Israelis occupied that land during the time of the Canaanites. That is what makes this issue so damn complicated. Because the Israelis truly did occupy the land first, according to Historical documents. However, during wars, the land has changed hands so many times, and the fact of the matter is that the Muslims occupied that land for literally centuries afterwards.

Then Israel, with the blessing of Britain Zionists in power, were given the go-ahead to give the Palestinians the boot, after the Muslims had the land for so long. That would be like hypothetically having a group of Indians come in and giving the people of the United States to boot, after we have occupied this land for even half that time period.

Not to sounds like a broken record, but I think Israel's steadfast support from America will lessen over time. I don't know of anyone my age that could possibly support anything Israel's doing unless they're Jewish and or totally unaware of the atrocities and mistreatment of a people.

Well, even younger Jewish Americans don't seem to be anywhere near as Pro-Israel as their parents and grand-parents are. This is yet another Age Generation issue, just like attitudes towards homosexuality.

I do think support will lessen over time, due to attitudes changing over that issue with the younger crowd coming in. However, that younger crowd can be corrupted as long as AIPAC is a factor in our politics. The power of that organization needs to be lessened with respect to its influence in our politics, if we want to see real progress made.

I do applaud Obama for this particular step he's taken. It's definitely a step in the right direction.


BTW, as this is one of the greatest conflicts in the world today ... I would recommend giving this a read, which gives a good outline of how things got to be the way they are, today between Israel and the Palestinians/Muslims.


This paragraph, pretty much sums up the thought process of each side, though.

Jewish claims to this land are based on the biblical promise to Abraham and his descendants, on the fact that this was the historical site of the Jewish kingdom of Israel (which was destroyed by the Roman Empire), and on Jews' need for a haven from European anti-Semitism.

Palestinian Arabs' claims to the land are based on continuous residence in the country for hundreds of years and the fact that they represented the demographic majority. They reject the notion that a biblical-era kingdom constitutes the basis for a valid modern claim. If Arabs engage the biblical argument at all, they maintain that since Abraham's son Ishmael is the forefather of the Arabs, then God's promise of the land to the children of Abraham includes Arabs as well. They do not believe that they should forfeit their land to compensate Jews for Europe's crimes against them.



http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/intro-pal-isr-primer.html

If you are a person of the Christian (or Jewish) Faith, one will typically choose Israel, as they believe in the Bible and that Abraham was promised a homeland for the Jewish people.

If you are a person of Reason and Logic and not religious, one will probably either side with the Palestinians, because of the length of time they did occupy that land .... or simply not take a side at all, as one doesn't feel it is a conflict that is any of our business.

 

[chance1]

The Palestinians were offered statehood. They turned it down. Fuck 'em.

I might have rephrased it slightly differently

nah

keep it as is

"truer words .................."

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

You attitude towards me is really tragic and, well ignorant.

Ignorance is as ignorance does...

I know more about this than you can ever know. I've seen events in this conflict transpire with my own eyes. I'm telling you the truth as I see it and understand it, which if you read into my post a bit you will see is rather enlightened.

Strange. I only read something somewhat opinionish and a whole lot of self-absorption...

 

[nafhoosier]

You and I both know the answer to that .... money and AIPAC.




It is sickening that all of this battle is really over Land. And the leadership of both sides of this issue uses Religion to essentially brainwash its citizens to give each of them Purpose to continue fighting this conflict.

Clearly, the Muslims don't want to recognize the time that the Israelis occupied that land during the time of the Canaanites. That is what makes this issue so damn complicated. Because the Israelis truly did occupy the land first, according to Historical documents. However, during wars, the land has changed hands so many times, and the fact of the matter is that the Muslims occupied that land for literally centuries afterwards.

Then Israel, with the blessing of Britain Zionists in power, were given the go-ahead to give the Palestinians the boot, after the Muslims had the land for so long. That would be like hypothetically having a group of Indians come in and giving the people of the United States to boot, after we have occupied this land for even half that time period.




Well, even younger Jewish Americans don't seem to be anywhere near as Pro-Israel as their parents and grand-parents are. This is yet another Age Generation issue, just like attitudes towards homosexuality.

I do think support will lessen over time, due to attitudes changing over that issue with the younger crowd coming in. However, that younger crowd can be corrupted as long as AIPAC is a factor in our politics. The power of that organization needs to be lessened with respect to its influence in our politics, if we want to see real progress made.

I do applaud Obama for this particular step he's taken. It's definitely a step in the right direction.


BTW, as this is one of the greatest conflicts in the world today ... I would recommend giving this a read, which gives a good outline of how things got to be the way they are, today between Israel and the Palestinians/Muslims.


This paragraph, pretty much sums up the thought process of each side, though.



If you are a person of the Christian (or Jewish) Faith, one will typically choose Israel, as they believe in the Bible and that Abraham was promised a homeland for the Jewish people.

If you are a person of Reason and Logic and not religious, one will probably either side with the Palestinians, because of the length of time they did occupy that land .... or simply not take a side at all, as one doesn't feel it is a conflict that is any of our business.

Maybe looking at both sides of the conflict will help bring peace. The conflict is not black and white.

Palestinians do deserve a state, BUT they have been offered peace several times in the past and openly elected Hamas, which has encouraged Palestinian CHILDREN to strap on bombs and blow up innocent civilians. What kind of cowardly behavior is that? Recruiting children to do your dirty work, especially so you could have gotten a 20k pay check from Sadam while he was still in power?

Maybe if they love their children as much as they hate Israel, than peace will come.

 

[naked gent]

Which is sad. Yet, I have no respect for them or the Arabs in this war, period. Statehood was offered and rejected.

I did not have a problem with the Palestinians rejecting the Israeli offer in 99 because it was an offer of neither statehood or even a state if you define a state as a contiguous piece of land which does fit in with all the other states which happen to be on continents. I do have a problem with them not even responding with a counter offer.

Israel should simply destroy those within their borders and be done with it but they won't for obvious political reasons.

I'm not sure what you mean by the term 'within their borders' but if you're including the West Bank then you're advocating the israelis kill over 3 million people. If becoming a world pariah is what you mean by 'political reasons' then I suppose you're right.

How you figure all that murder will result in a more secure Israel is beyond my comprehension.

I take it you're not one of those non violent christians who stand in such contrast to those violent muslims.

 

[Kulindahr]

And who gave them Nukes?

France.

===