Obama said: too inexperienced to run for President

[Zingerific]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

I have a nagging fear that if Obama gets elected we're all going to discover he has a horrible, ghastly flaw... like we found out about GW Bush once 9/11 hit him and he went power-mad (I think he would have had a bland, uneventful, undistinguished presidency with balanced budgets but for that). But picking at him with the weak shots that keep bobbing up on this forum is still just weak.

I don't think that'll happen, but it's certainly possible. My point was that there are more probable reasons he changed his mind than hypocrisy.

The thing about Bush is that we all knew about his flaws before the 2000 election. The DUI, the National Guard pilot who rarely flew, the alleged cocaine that was never quite explained away, the "experience" of being a governor in a state with a weak governorship, running a baseball team into the ground... we all knew that, but people decided they wanted a President they could have a beer with, other than uptight Gore.

The best the anti-Obama forces can come up with is lack of experience -- but with Bush there was demonstrable incompetence. Bad experience, if you will. But people didn't care enough to vote against him.
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[Spensed]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

^ On Bush, it wasn't the case that everyone knew they were buying a lemon and didn't care.

Most of the negative stuff about him was diluted by Rove and the media so Bush came across as reformed and as a successfully inclusive Governor, etc.

Given how incompetent the Republican Administration has been, it's odd that they're so successful at marketing their guy in a campaign or maybe it's just that the Democrats aren't.

I'm sure the Republicans will try to swift-boat him on something, but Obama should have a good shot. Unlike Gore or Kerry, despite his inexperience, Obama is cool under fire and quick on his feet.

 

[seamusnewwest]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

No prob, but hey let's start a new topic hehe. Or better yet, let's hook up!

So nice of you, but I don't really, believe it or not, hook up as such. And I am afraid that I am very far from Pennsylvania!

 

[Zingerific]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Most of the negative stuff about him was diluted by Rove and the media so Bush came across as reformed and as a successfully inclusive Governor, etc.

I don't know about that. All of the specific points I mentioned (save the weak governorship in Texas and the baseball problems) dominated the news cycle for a few days at least. You're right, the GOP is great a damage control; but for it to work as well as it did in 2000, the public has to be at least partially complicit. They wanted to believe what Rove et al said. 'Cause he'd be fun to have a beer with.

 

[seamusnewwest]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

From his perspective in 2004.
He didn't get railroaded into 2008 by a time machine, you know.



Or Obama gets to the Senate and decides he can do better than those other fools, and be better for the country than the supposed heir apparent.... Or Obama gets to the Senate and sees how everyone who goes there ends up corrupted by the system, and decides he'd better run now before he's too thoroughly polluted....

I have a nagging fear that if Obama gets elected we're all going to discover he has a horrible, ghastly flaw... like we found out about GW Bush once 9/11 hit him and he went power-mad (I think he would have had a bland, uneventful, undistinguished presidency with balanced budgets but for that). But picking at him with the weak shots that keep bobbing up on this forum is still just weak.

To not vote for Obama is not neccessarily not to like him.

He is a bit of a creation of the current regime. Clinton would make a great President, but people want such a break with the past of Bush, want a "change", that something brand new looks really good. It's happening to the Republicans to, choosing McCain, a sort of anti-Bush Republican, even they want change.

I don't know if we'll find a horrible ghastly flaw, it could even be a flaw many of would like that could undo a Presidency. I loved Jimmy Carter, the first U.S. President to introduce humanitarian principles into U.S. foreign policy. But it undid him, and he never won his second term. Change is a difficult thing.

 

[seamusnewwest]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

I don't think that'll happen, but it's certainly possible. My point was that there are more probable reasons he changed his mind than hypocrisy.

The thing about Bush is that we all knew about his flaws before the 2000 election. The DUI, the National Guard pilot who rarely flew, the alleged cocaine that was never quite explained away, the "experience" of being a governor in a state with a weak governorship, running a baseball team into the ground... we all knew that, but people decided they wanted a President they could have a beer with, other than uptight Gore.

The best the anti-Obama forces can come up with is lack of experience -- but with Bush there was demonstrable incompetence. Bad experience, if you will. But people didn't care enough to vote against him.
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Obama wrote about his drug use and history in his book, so we'll have to stop being righteous about that when it comes to Bush.

 

[Spensed]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

I don't know about that. All of the specific points I mentioned (save the weak governorship in Texas and the baseball problems) dominated the news cycle for a few days at least. You're right, the GOP is great a damage control; but for it to work as well as it did in 2000, the public has to be at least partially complicit. They wanted to believe what Rove et al said. 'Cause he'd be fun to have a beer with.

You know what. You are right especially with respect to the re-election.

By that point, all of the negative stuff had been around for a while and he had a track record in office as a lemon, but the voters still bought it.

Blame Kerry as well, if you like, but the American voters just aren't a sophisticated and all knowing as people like to pretend and playing to that against Obama is the only hope McCain has.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

You know what. You are right especially with respect to the re-election.


By that point, all of the negative stuff had been around for a while and he had a track record in office as a lemon, but the voters still bought it.


Blame Kerry as well, if you like, but the American voters just aren't a sophisticated and all knowing as people like to pretend and playing to that against Obama is the only hope McCain has.

Counting Clinton out as you have after slowly but surely buying the nonsense the Obama campaign and supporters put out is the same thing. Everybody buys into propaganda differently, people conform it to what fits their experience and expectation, but buying into it is buying into it.

Jesse Jackson Jr, Obama's co-chair, started the crap about the Clintons being racist right after Hillary won New Hampshire. It was a typical Rovian move. Standard off page 1. Brilliant. There was even an Obama campaign memo that leaked out listing things that could be construed as racist but in truth were not racist, but nobody cared. It turned up the volume and it hasn't stopped since. And whether or not you bought into the idea the Clintons are racist or said racist things, you have gone along with the crowd that assumes an increasingly diminished estimation of Hillary exactly the same way Rove got people to about Gore and Kerry.

Further, Jesse Jackson Jr has used another Rovian dirty trick -- intimidating people. He's used it on Hillary's black supporters to get them to switch to Obama. That's documented. Then Lewis, the other day, his pain in saying his decision to switch to Obama was tougher than marching on Selma, was incredibly compelling. I don't believe he wanted to do it.

 

[naked gent]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Jesse Jackson Jr, Obama's co-chair, started the crap about the Clintons being racist right after Hillary won New Hampshire. It was a typical Rovian move. Standard off page 1. Brilliant.

Nick I really don't know what you are referring to when you say Jesse Jackson Jr. started the racist crap.....could you enlighten me?

And while you're at it might you venture a guess as to why it worked so well with white voters who are less likely than black voters to see racism in every little thing.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Nick I really don't know what you are referring to when you say Jesse Jackson Jr. started the racist crap.....could you enlighten me?

"Katrina" is a code word Jackson speaks with particular emphasis; you'll also notice the same vocal emphasis on "clever" and "sensitivity." "Her appearance" and "tears" are also code words. He brings in "South Carolina" and "African American voters" to close the sale.

And while you're at it might you venture a guess as to why it worked so well with white voters who are less likely than black voters to see racism in every little thing.

White educated liberals are very sensitive to racism; it's an emotional issue for us. Stupidly so, in the opinion of those cynical about it. And that Rovian stuff is always targeted at emotion.

 

[noah617]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

"Katrina" is a code word Jackson speaks with particular emphasis; you'll also notice the same vocal emphasis on "clever" and "sensitivity." "Her appearance" and "tears" are also code words. He brings in "South Carolina" and "African American voters" to close the sale.

I'll agree that challenging someone based on when they show tears is kind of sleazy. He has no clue if she cried over Katrina or the war. Saying this is bringing race into the campaign because he mentioned Katrina is a HUGE stretch though.

 

[naked gent]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

^^ Ok Nick consider me enlightened. In polite company his view would be warped.

I'd still say Bill Clinton's Jesse Jackson comment was more damaging with white voters than that which lil Jesse is selling here although I don't think either was particularly damaging with white voters. I just think she was weak from the start.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

I'll agree that challenging someone based on when they show tears is kind of sleazy. He has no clue if she cried over Katrina or the war. Saying this is bringing race into the campaign because he mentioned Katrina is a HUGE stretch though.

I'm guessing you're white.

You think, of all the things in the world he could have referred to, Jackson just happened to mention Katrina?

Just about everyone has now seen or heard about rapper Kanye West declaring on an NBC benefit broadcast: "George Bush doesn't care about black people." (NBC cut the offending comment from its West Coast feed, but there's always the Internet.)

The general reaction was that, whatever the slowness in Bush's response to Katrina and the tragically flawed government mishandling of the aftermath, this was an unfair and over-the-top charge.

But that doesn't mean it hasn't helped spark a debate.

Just yesterday, a Pew Research Center survey found that 71 percent of blacks say the disaster shows that racial inequality remains a major problem in the country, while 56 percent of whites feel this was not a particularly important lesson of the disaster. And how's this for a racial perception gap: Sixty-six percent of blacks say the government's response to the crisis would have been faster if most of the storm's victims had been white, while 77 percent of whites disagree.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/09/09/BL2005090900567.html

A HUGE stretch you think?

"Katrina" is a rallying cry. It's code. It works.

 

[noah617]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Yes a HUGE stretch. What code was it when he mentioned Iraq? The rallying was done by Hillary mentioning LBJ and Bill comparing Obama to Jessie Jackson.

 

[Spensed]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Counting Clinton out as you have after slowly but surely buying the nonsense the Obama campaign and supporters put out is the same thing. Everybody buys into propaganda differently, people conform it to what fits their experience and expectation, but buying into it is buying into it.

I'm counting Clinton out because I've watched the debates and read what, and around what, both candidates have to say and come to the conclusion that Obama is the better bet against McCain. Plus I've seen the polls.

While I like Hillary and voted for her, I didn't like Bill Clinton's interventions on her behalf and, like many people, it gave me the sense of what might be come, if she were elected. It's by no means all her fault, but I ended up thinking that her baggage of past allegations and divisiveness just wasn't worth it with a new boy in town. Finally, her recent mood changes remind me of Gore and Kerry, which Obama's coolness under fire doesn't.

Neither Clinton or Hillary were an anointed nominee for me, as Hillary seems to for you. So being told that I've swallowed the propaganda is an attempt at patronizing control that doesn't work. Not for you or for her. Obama has quite successfully pointed out that Hillary comes across as thinking that anyone who doesn't support her is an idiiot.

Frankly, I think she's just lost the plot. She should be doing something really dramatic to get the focus back on her and her message. As it is, concerns about Obama's experience are just being eclipsed by her sarcasm, peevishness and unpredictability.

 

[NickCole]

Re: Obama said: too inexperienced to run for Presi

Yes a HUGE stretch. What code was it when he mentioned Iraq? The rallying was done by Hillary mentioning LBJ and Bill comparing Obama to Jessie Jackson.

Hillary was right about LBJ. It was an innocuous and obvious and accurate observation having nothing to do with race. Without LBJ in the Oval Office, civil rights legislation wouldn't have been signed. She pointed to the significance of the part a President plays in advancing causes like civil rights. Nothing remotely racist about that. The Obama campaign, the media and Obama supporters all over the Internet turned it into a racial thing exactly the same way Rove got people to turn Gore's innocuous and true comment about his participation in the Internet against him.

As for Clinton's mention of Jesse Jackson, it also wasn't racist. He was making a point and the only people he could have mentioned who were in similar circumstances with SC in their campaigns were Jackson, himself or John Edwards who was still in the race. The Obama and Jackson victories were the most similar in percentage of votes won (around 55%) and the percentage of black voters they won. [Thanks to Sean Wilentz for that information.] There was nothing inherently racist about it unless one thinks that in making a comparison with Obama the mere mention of another black man is racist, and of course that's ridiculous. But, again, the Obama campaign got the media to repeat and repeat the "story" and Obama supporters posted the "story" over the Internet until repetition becomes "truth."