'Oh! Susanna' songwriter's statue removed from Pittsburgh park after criticism

[TX-Beau]

I suspect MLK was making a pointed statement. Stone Mountain is kind an outlier, after all, how do you move a mountain into a museum.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Many if not most statues or monuments are put somewhere to promote a particular viewpoint of history. Here's one of King Louis XIV in Québec City. It wasn't there to express an inclusive democratic tribute to our human rights. It was put there to signify that Louis XIV really had unquestionable absolute divine rule over all his subjects. It was put there to claim North America for France (that is, everything belonged to Louis XIV and whatever heirs God would grant him). It was put there to intimidate every Protestant who might ever see it: this land was Catholic, truth and justice were Catholic. This land was the King's and not anyone else's because God said so. You can't toss a golden cherub at Versailles without hitting a basket full of injustices and excesses and delusions of the monarchs of the day. And this statue stands for all of that.

Also it was put there by a toady of the king hoping to curry favour with the monarchy and show what a good little stooge he was. It stood there from 1686. Then as fashions change and monarchs change and entire regimes change, it went away for over 200 years until France (now a Republic) made a gift of a reproduction to Canada (Now a British democratic monarchy). There for another few decades until it "got in the way" (political moods changing again). Until finally it's been back in Place Royale since 1964. Now wouldn't you say the statue has come to stand for something more? The friendship of two democracies. The respect for the symbols of history with the refusal to be bound by the limits of the past. The national memory and the aspirations of Quebecers within Canada to live as Canadians but not be erased by the British monarchy as though we could cut out all our roots? Or are we still proclaiming the sovereignty of a dead king by divine command.

Playing "Let's Hide the Embarrassing Statue" is a mug's game. It always ends up back there. If there are important political points to be made about it, add them to the public square. Educate people in the same public square. Relieve people from monarchist propaganda, or communist propaganda, or segregationist propaganda, in the very same public square. You can't delete it, you can only answer it.

Many if not most monuments are not put there to terrorize a particular demographic. I suppose we should put back all those signs that said "White Only" because it's "History?" After all, without them how will the children know?

Come on, I favor the German solution, you take the statues out of the parks, and park them in the museums of the Jim Crow South and the battle to bring it down.

That is not history, it's still fucking happening.

 

[TX-Beau]

The only person saying "hide" is you. Frankly I suspect most black people want all of this prominently on the public record and taught in every school.

 

[TX-Beau]

...While Confederate monuments honor their white heroes, they do not always rely on the true history of what took place between 1861 and 1865. Nor was that their intent. Rather, they served to rehabilitate white men — not as the losers of a war but, as a monument in Charlotte states, preservers of “the Anglo-Saxon civilization of the South.”

Today’s defenders of Confederate monuments are either unaware of the historical context or do not care. Like generations of whites before them, they are more invested in the mythology that has attached itself to these sentinels of white supremacy, because it serves their cause.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...brate-white-supremacy/?utm_term=.d0f54f0e8f27

I saw someone once ask, that if you put up a statue of Mengele at Auschwitz, would you tell Jews to suck it up an deal.

 

[bankside]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Many if not most monuments are not put there to terrorize a particular demographic. I suppose we should put back all those signs that said "White Only" because it's "History?" After all, without them how will the children know?

Come on, I favor the German solution, you take the statues out of the parks, and park them in the museums of the Jim Crow South and the battle to bring it down.

That is not history, it's still fucking happening.

A branch of my family were literally Huguenot refugees who escaped persecution in France under Louis XIV to seek safety in England. Terror was the name of the game. Terror was Louis XIV, and he’s right there in Canada’s old capital. It’s not so much that I object to them being moved to a museum. It’s that I think it’s a stronger message and a more effective challenge to show that the irridentists of southern slavery failed. Each statue they put up can become a monument to their failure.

It's news to me that parks and public displays are suddenly an integral part of the education process]

It’s a great shame that this is news to you. If you still live where you grew up, vote for a school board that will send kids on field trips. Vote for it wherever you live.

 

[TX-Beau]

Bankside, Donald Trump is the result of those racists who "failed." We still live with this injustice. Those symbols are still viscerally divisive and relevant.

If the Catholics were STILL murdering Huguenots in France I might agree with you. I dispute the inference that Louis was put there to terrorize Huguenots.

My family were Jacobite prisoners of war exiled into indenture, That doesn't mean that statues of George II were put up to remind the Scots that they were cattle.

 

[TX-Beau]

Anyway we agree that one should put these things in their relevant historical context. There is no need to destroy them, so long as you juxtapose them right next to the reason they were created.

 

[TX-Beau]

We could replace them all with glowing statues of...


Wait for it...


HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON!!!!!

LOL

 

[bankside]

We still live with this injustice. Those symbols are still viscerally divisive and relevant.

They are. What I’m not convinced is that giving them a “dignified retirement” out of sight in some museum is going to bring the most change.

Here’s the most dignified and necessary and powerful and magnificent thing I’ve seen in a while. I would suggest it is instantly a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Montgomery Lynching Memorial It joins the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin, the Memorial to Homosexuals persecuted under the Nazis just across the street in Tiergarten, the Hiroshima Peace Memorial, Robben Island in Cape Town, the Killing Fields in Cambodia, Yad Vashem in Israel...at the apex of solemn reflection incumbent upon all of us.

The article reports quite clearly some of the mindset you point out is still alive. The fact that the second-rate governed chose to absent herself from the opening should be a career-ending disgrace. That it did not only proves the need for such a memorial institution.

As I read that it’s plain how many people would like to pretend the past was a happy time for everyone. They have to be broken of that idea. And I don’t think carting away their bronzes will do it. If anything it will “make martyrs” of those historical figures instead of making examples of them. People like this dingbat governor and her ilk will cleave to those statues in their absence.

I am a believer in the subversive power of art to do something here. I would rather see the Montgomery Lynching Monument spread it’s wings with satellite installations. Let every person who sees a confederate monument also see a memorial related to the Lynching Monument. Let it be impossible to take a picture of a confederate symbol without that other remembrance filling part of the frame.

If the Catholics were STILL murdering Huguenots in France I might agree with you. I dispute the inference that Louis was put there to terrorize Huguenots.

 

[TX-Beau]

They are. What I’m not convinced is that giving them a “dignified retirement” out of sight in some museum is going to bring the most change.

Here’s the most dignified and necessary and powerful and magnificent thing I’ve seen in a while. I would suggest it is instantly a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Montgomery Lynching Memorial It joins the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe in Berlin, the Memorial to Homosexuals persecuted under the Nazis just across the street in Tiergarten, the Hiroshima Peace Memorial, Robben Island in Cape Town, the Killing Fields in Cambodia, Yad Vashem in Israel...at the apex of solemn reflection incumbent upon all of us.

The article reports quite clearly some of the mindset you point out is still alive. The fact that the second-rate governed chose to absent herself from the opening should be a career-ending disgrace. That it did not only proves the need for such a memorial institution.

As I read that it’s plain how many people would like to pretend the past was a happy time for everyone. They have to be broken of that idea. And I don’t think carting away their bronzes will do it. If anything it will “make martyrs” of those historical figures instead of making examples of them. People like this dingbat governor and her ilk will cleave to those statues in their absence.

I am a believer in the subversive power of art to do something here. I would rather see the Montgomery Lynching Monument spread it’s wings with satellite installations. Let every person who sees a confederate monument also see a memorial related to the Lynching Monument. Let it be impossible to take a picture of a confederate symbol without that other remembrance filling part of the frame.

I have no problem with any of this.

 

[TX-Beau]

But I just have to say, that if it comes to a choice between making a statue a "martyr" for a racist ass, and forcing black people to put up with them, I'm going to side with the Black people. let the racists be deprived. It's their turn.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

It’s a great shame that this is news to you. If you still live where you grew up, vote for a school board that will send kids on field trips. Vote for it wherever you live.

Oh you responded to THAT part, well lemme try again......

If I understand correctly, you want America's parks, where families take their kids for leisurely strolls, to become artistic history lessons with statues to remind people that America used to murder and torture blacks? even I'm not that desperate to be argumentative.

"Daddy, who's that?"

"That's John Such-and-such he was a respected business man who raped a few of his slaves and had a big ole brood of bastard children."

"Wooooooooow."

Sound about right? You actually want these statues to remain for noble reasons? Oh you saint. Because if I didn't know better it kind of sounds like you're just getting a boner being in opposition to brown people. If cities started removing these statues and black people argued to keep them up for historical value I bet a hundred bucks you'd be singing that "Let go of the past" song yall hold so near and dear. Honestly I don't think this is as much about the statues as it is a manifestation of that ever-present fear that catering to minorities is going to take precedent over white people's needs. Today it's your statues tomorrow your language or your job or your culture. What a frightening albeit unrealistic prospect.

 

[luckynumbah7]

They are. What I’m not convinced is that giving them a “dignified retirement” out of sight in some museum is going to bring the most change.

Pardon me, but since when is moving something to a museum with contrasting works and informational plaques and history lessons 'retired'?

You're also mistaken about parks being history lessons for abuse. They're not. They're history lessons for honor. Now, if there's another installation added and an actual historical commentary on the facts added to the original in a park, that's another matter entirely. But that's not generally what people do. Instead, they put that in museums because of the space issue. Surely you've noticed statuary occupies a limited amount of space in most instances.

 

[opinterph]

… Playing "Let's Hide the Embarrassing Statue" is a mug's game. It always ends up back there. If there are important political points to be made about it, add them to the public square. Educate people in the same public square. Relieve people from monarchist propaganda, or communist propaganda, or segregationist propaganda, in the very same public square. You can't delete it, you can only answer it.

Below is a post I added here more than a decade ago …

… I doubt there are any Jubbers more familiar with Stone Mountain than me. Being raised in the unincorporated portion of that “city,” I have climbed all over the giant rock, including many of the areas officially “off-limits” to the public. I call my favorite spot the Oasis. It’s a 30 minute climb up the south slope [danger – no public access]. I’ve spent many hours sitting there pondering the universe. When the moon is full, it very much resembles a lunar surface itself.

I was surprised the Wiki link failed to mention anything about the history of Stone Mountain before the Venable brothers purchased it in 1887. Whoever wrote that article seemed intent to emphasize the Klan and the carving (which, though dwarfed by the size of the monolith, is the largest bas-relief in the world.) Emphasizing the Klan seems weird to me, because those folks merely visited the site infrequently during a singular forty-five year period. Native American Indians used the site as a meeting place over a much longer span of time. Although the original carving, promoted in 1915 by the United Daughters of the Confederacy, was intended to honor Robert E. Lee, the current version was conceived largely to promote tourism. The Civil War theme certainly lends itself to controversy or rebuke in our present social reality, but the park is realistically a quite ambiguous collection of dissociated relics. They are scattered among lots of other “wholesome” features, such a petting zoo for the kids, canoes, water slides, horse shows, camp ground, hiking trails, etc. When people from other parts of the country, such as Just_Believe18, visit the park they may find it bizarre, but their patronage generates revenue for the state.

Images will always mean different things to different people. I think it is the intent that is perhaps most important. Georgia was the last of the original thirteen colonies to be settled, but forth to ratify the Constitution and become a state. Consider that until very recently the Georgia State Flag included the Confederate Battle Flag as its prominent feature. Had this design always been the official flag of the state, the design would have profound historic significance. But the Georgia legislature actually changed the flag in 1956 to include the Confederate Battle Flag as a matter of protest against desegregation. The intent in that change was specifically to be offensive and the change has now been corrected. The 1970 Stone Mountain carving was not intended to glorify racism. Considering the spirit of its original conception, it is perhaps ironic that the carving eventually materialized to become the centerpiece for a place where everyone is welcome to come together and have fun in a relaxed, playful environment. It is a stark reminder of how far the American people have progressed in our collective efforts to achieve progress toward overcoming division and oppression.

William Holmes Borders, a noted African-American theologian and pastor of the Wheat Street Baptist Church, delivered the invocation at the dedication of the carving in 1970. This provided a formal affirmation to the accomplishments of the Civil Rights Campaign and [combined with a novel legal move by the State of Georgia] laid to rest any aspirations from the Klan to ever again use the mountain to propel their agenda of hatred. It also served to fulfill a very specific challenge from another African-American theologian given in a speech known as “I Have a Dream” in which King said “...Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!”

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Pardon me, but since when is moving something to a museum with contrasting works and informational plaques and history lessons 'retired'?

You're also mistaken about parks being history lessons for abuse. They're not. They're history lessons for honor. Now, if there's another installation added and an actual historical commentary on the facts added to the original in a park, that's another matter entirely. But that's not generally what people do. Instead, they put that in museums because of the space issue. Surely you've noticed statuary occupies a limited amount of space in most instances.

I think people are pretending statues are history lessons and not ego ridden commemorations in order to have an argumentive point.

 

[rareboy]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

Many if not most monuments are not put there to terrorize a particular demographic. I suppose we should put back all those signs that said "White Only" because it's "History?" After all, without them how will the children know?

Come on, I favor the German solution, you take the statues out of the parks, and park them in the museums of the Jim Crow South and the battle to bring it down.

That is not history, it's still fucking happening.

This is exactly the response that is needed in the US now.

And that is what I understand the intention is for the Foster statue as well.

 

[gsdx]

Re: A statue- complete with banjo-pickin slave, honoring a racist songwriter was taken down and white people are calling it reverse racism

How 'bout these comments by His 'High'ness Kanye?

Kanye West sounds off on slavery, his opioid addiction and Trump

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Rapper Kanye West on Tuesday described slavery as a choice, praised Donald Trump for doing "the impossible" by becoming U.S. president, and attributed his 2016 mental breakdown to opioid addiction.

[Quoted Text: Truncated] © 2018 Reuters. All Rights Reserved.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/kanye-west-sounds-off-slavery-opioid-addiction-trump-011408336.html

 

[luckynumbah7]

And how does he come to that conclusion that ridding onesself of (outside world approved) mental slavery is limited to a shrug of the shoulders like tossing off a shawl?

If it were that simple everyone would do it. But it isn't, so they don't, so that opinion isn't located in the realm of reality.

I'd also like to know how he came to the conclusion black numbers bested white one's - because there's one thing and only one thing an angry mob does well, and that's murdering the group and anyone who could possibly be considered similar for whatever action, real or imagined, pissed them off this time. In sum, there were entirely too many white people. Never would've made it off the continent.

 

[gsdx]

^ The slaves had no choice. Kanye, on the other hand, has a choice not to be an idiot. But then, what can we expect from someone who names his kids after compass points?

 

[bankside]

Below is a post I added here more than a decade ago …

Someone could chisel off that monument. (Had never heard of it until now btw. The mountain itself reminds me of Ayers Rock/Uluru in grey instead of red.) but if they chiselled it off it would look a lot like the Taliban blowing up the statues of Bamiyan. How sad that someone should be afraid of an idea. And if they do that they lose the meaning of King and Borders to reclaim the place.