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On establishing secular morality

poolerboy

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I once came across this insightful friar who was discussing morality and art and how Western culture, in abandoning important classical and medieval thought for understanding things, led to an elimination of Aristotle's formal and final causality (a thing's essential structure and its purpose or destiny, respectively) retaining only what is material (what it's made of) and what is efficient (how it got that way). In the arts, for example, Thomas Aquinas defined it as recta ratio factibilium, meaning right reason in regard to the making of things. An artist, like Michelangelo, would survey the world to see its forms and structures (which, as the friar would put it, God the creator had purposefully made) and then he or she would try to mimic those forms in what was to be produced. The "right reason," then, became the grasp of the essential structure of things. But with the arrival of modernity there was—and still is—a huge distrust and indeed rejection of it with an emphasis on efficient causality (again, where things come from). You see this clearly in modern art in how the externalization of the subjectivity of the artist becomes what is important; that something is "creative" or that it is "expressive" of the artist is now what is of great import. (Watch this video to experience pseudointellectualism firsthand in the area of modern art.) The lowest point for art can be summarized in an expression by the Dadaist painter Marcel Duchamp who said famously that whatever the artists spits is art.

For Aquinas, morality was recta ratio agibilium; to wit, right reason in regard to the doing of things. In the pre-modern era people would ask what the purpose of an act would be when attempting to answer questions on morality. An act of legislation, for example, would have to be viewed, then, with the finality or purpose of its reason for being there, which in this case was ordered toward justice and societal well-being. Thus anything which may deviate away from this, like the promotion of good toward the legislator or some private interest, becomes a moral "wrong." Today, however, ethics is about what "I" determine to be right; it wraps one in their own ego much like a modern artist. So if something is expressive of my desires or sense of identity, that is what is now seen as good because there is no final cause to be investigated objectively. That's why you often hear people today say something along the lines of: "Well who are you to tell me what to do?" In other words, I gotta be me; I express my own identity. For someone who retains formality and finality in things like art and morality, they become an explorer and the phenomenon to be explored an objectively empirical one.

Of course the purpose of an act, as particularly stated by this friar, is likely his subtle and indirect way of attempting to push for religious morality (namely Catholicism) which argues, as one example, that homosexuality is wrong because it moves away from the purpose of the procreative act of sex. This is why I think morality has to be grounded in human and animal well-being as a finality or axiom. Our behaviors relate to how we affect each other, not whether we go against natural finality. Otherwise, once you begin to attenuate this word in meaning it becomes invariably obtuse and susceptible to arbitrary concerns no doubt guided by primal instincts and reactions, like disgust, which can place an emphasis on one purpose (like procreation) while hiding others (like pleasure and fulfillment). Imagine applying this to every aspect of our lives. We would have to deem things like chewing sugarless gum as immoral because it is not using our mouths as conduits toward the final purpose of nutrition. There are several "finalities" to any given thing or act and to focus merely on one unfairly biases the conversation in favor of your ideology.

Establishing objective morality in an open-ended way without regard to confirming one's own religious biases, is not that difficult a task. As Sam Harris has said in his book The Moral Landscape, one merely has to acknowledge that in the evaluation of human behaviors as "right" or "wrong," we must undoubtedly refer to conscious entities—that is, anything that is sentient and has sensory experience. That we categorize human behavior in our interaction with fellow humans and even animals demonstrates our concern for their well-being. Now we have two axiomatic criteria—conscious creatures and well-being—which establishes objective morality. How do those things establish its objectivity? Well, because well-being is not a matter of personal opinion or preference. Imagine, for instance, the worst possibly misery for everyone. This is by definition "bad;" there is nothing conceivably worse since the term captures it. Surely there are right and wrong ways to avoid said misery, and surely there are better, more efficient methods of avoiding it than others. Such a task is an empirical one; that is to say, it will depend upon evidence about states of the world and of our brains. Thus science, broadly construed, is a pragmatic tool in the pursuit of answering these questions. Religion, by contrast, seeks to double-down on conviction and confirmation bias. Supposedly religiously-epistemic tools like "faith" lead only to credulity. If faith is a trust that is imparted onto someone or something giving the believer the feeling of truth, sans evidence, this can and has been applied to virtually anything for which the believer feels affirmed. Nearly all religions and their faithful operate as though they have arrived at moral and supernatural truths and most all of them use "faith" to get to that deep-seated conviction, but it is impossible for all of them to be simultaneously true, given their incompatibilities. Thus, faith has to be jettisoned in favor of epistemic tools like reason and evidence which promote skeptical inquiry and a sounder path toward moral objectivity.
 
Ok Ok Thanks for saying this. Science is superior to faith as a means to further the survival of our species.
 
poolerboy I do not need to imagine the worst possible misery. I live this. The friars and the Thomas Aquinas and the whole of Catholicism condemned me to the life of misery because of my love for the sugarless bums and gums. Shrinks, drugs, therapy, suicide almost successful, coma, tied to the bed psycho wards and encore shrinks, many more therapy and many more medicines to learn to love homo me.
 
faith has to be jettisoned in favor of epistemic tools like reason and evidence which promote skeptical inquiry and a sounder path toward moral objectivity.

Faith in God can be reasoned by those of us who are prepared to accept that we have reason enough to trust our experiences to need to dig deeper, while also recognising that faith can never be sufficiently reasoned to provide us with the evidence that would lead to faith becoming redundant....faith is therefore a process of self discovery that ends when we draw our last breath.
 
Faith in God can be reasoned by those of us who are prepared to accept that we have reason enough to trust our experiences to need to dig deeper, while also recognising that faith can never be sufficiently reasoned to provide us with the evidence that would lead to faith becoming redundant....faith is therefore a process of self discovery that ends when we draw our last breath.
If anything it's ad hoc reasoning at best, which is pretty bad. I don't know what you mean exactly by experiences. Experiences such as anecdotal evidence? That would be a terrible way at establishing truth; the idea that one can, through unguarded intuition, introspection and transformative experience, draw conclusions about the nature of reality. We are succeptible to hallucination, illusion, and wishful thinking.

But let's address faith's utility in the context of moral truth. Explain how faith, if it is truly a trust imparted onto someone or something (like, oh I don't know, the Bible or the Qur'an), leads one to discern fact from fiction. So far I've simply gotten a vague and rhetorically obtuse, poetic defense of it without any specific defense or explanation.
 
If anything it's ad hoc reasoning at best, which is pretty bad. I don't know what you mean exactly by experiences. Experiences such as anecdotal evidence? That would be a terrible way at establishing truth; the idea that one can, through unguarded intuition, introspection and transformative experience, draw conclusions about the nature of reality. We are succeptible to hallucination, illusion, and wishful thinking.

But let's address faith's utility in the context of moral truth. Explain how faith, if it is truly a trust imparted onto someone or something (like, oh I don't know, the Bible or the Qur'an), leads one to discern fact from fiction. So far I've simply gotten a vague and rhetorically obtuse, poetic defense of it without any specific defense or explanation.

While you obsess over the academic I much prefer to reason my personal experiences with the divine mystery....

Truth is a matter of personal perception for truth is known by our life's experiences and how we perceive them....

Fact is a matter for the science department.
 
While you obsess over the academic I much prefer to reason my personal experiences with the divine mystery....
So how does one tell whether one is hallucinating, experiencing illusion, dream, a brain failure, or an experience that maps reality? Normally one needs a means by which to distinguish phenomenon, but you seem more interested in how these make you feel more than what might actually be true.

Such a state of mind wouldn't be so bad if not for the reality that people, unlike yourself, take faith to its logical conclusion. A person who genuinely believes that the Bible is truly inspired by God and comes across passages that they "feel" is true (which, as you say below, counts) like homosexuality being wrong and whatnot will act on these beliefs. Why? Because belief informs action. Keeping beliefs private actually makes little sense. Insofar as you genuinely believe that something is true you will be compelled to act on it. This has dangerously serious ramifications which you seem to dismiss with doey-eyed romanticism.

Truth is a matter of personal perception for truth is known by our life's experiences and how we perceive them....
So a person feeling that God is real and one who feels God is not real are both correct? It's not "academic" to notice this violates the law of non-contradiction.

Fact is a matter for the science department.
Clearly
 
So how does one tell whether one is hallucinating, experiencing illusion, dream, a brain failure, or an experience that maps reality? Normally one needs a means by which to distinguish phenomenon, but you seem more interested in how these make you feel more than what might actually be true.

Such a state of mind wouldn't be so bad if not for the reality that people, unlike yourself, take faith to its logical conclusion. A person who genuinely believes that the Bible is truly inspired by God and comes across passages that they "feel" is true (which, as you say below, counts) like homosexuality being wrong and whatnot will act on these beliefs. Why? Because belief informs action. Keeping beliefs private actually makes little sense. Insofar as you genuinely believe that something is true you will be compelled to act on it. This has dangerously serious ramifications which you seem to dismiss with doey-eyed romanticism.


So a person feeling that God is real and one who feels God is not real are both correct? It's not "academic" to notice this violates the law of non-contradiction.


Clearly

Rather like any human experience one either accepts its reality as it is perceived or not.....I'm not a psychiatrist thus am unable to imagine beyond the experience that has influenced me to believe that the divine mystery is alive in my life....if one wants to invent excuses to deny ones experiences then denial might well be the easy way out.....for we know that many gay men prefer to deny their sexual orientation out of fear....despite their daily experiences informing them that they should embrace who they are and become that person to be able to live a happy and fulfilling life....thus, it can be said that our life's teaching experiences are the only true way to better knowing who we are...especially when relating to the source of our life's story...the divine mystery.
 
Rather like any human experience one either accepts its reality as it is perceived or not.....I'm not a psychiatrist thus am unable to imagine beyond the experience that has influenced me to believe that the divine mystery is alive in my life....if one wants to invent excuses to deny ones experiences then denial might well be the easy way out.....for we know that many gay men prefer to deny their sexual orientation out of fear....despite their daily experiences informing them that they should embrace who they are and become that person to be able to live a happy and fulfilling life....thus, it can be said that our life's teaching experiences are the only true way to better knowing who we are...especially when relating to the source of our life's story...the divine mystery.
It's not about "denying one's experiences." It's about not claiming to know things on the nature of reality on the basis of an experience.

Again, you're not addressing the main topic this thread is about which is morality and the best means by which we can know what constitutes "right" or "wrong" behavior. Sam has articulated two threshold criteria that is not at all unreasonable: conscious beings and their well-being. If someone has "faith" that homosexuality is a terrible plague of society, how has faith helped them to discern fact from fiction, true beliefs from false ones? Your statement that "Truth is a matter of personal perception" relegates its discovery (and maybe even the thing itself) as relative; again, if there is a believer who holds God as true and a person who does not, they cannot both be simultaneously true--that is a binary proposition (I'm sorry if logical reasoning is an inconvenience).
 
It's not about "denying one's experiences." It's about not claiming to know things on the nature of reality on the basis of an experience.

Again, you're not addressing the main topic this thread is about which is morality and the best means by which we can know what constitutes "right" or "wrong" behavior. Sam has articulated two threshold criteria that is not at all unreasonable: conscious beings and their well-being. If someone has "faith" that homosexuality is a terrible plague of society, how has faith helped them to discern fact from fiction, true beliefs from false ones? Your statement that "Truth is a matter of personal perception" relegates its discovery (and maybe even the thing itself) as relative; again, if there is a believer who holds God as true and a person who does not, they cannot both be simultaneously true--that is a binary proposition (I'm sorry if logical reasoning is an inconvenience).

It's about how we perceive the experiences that we live.....my understandings of my experiences, may well not be yours....that does not make my understandings any the less real to me....nor are my understandings any the less credible because they do not make sense to you.
 
What is truth is a question that can be traced back to ancient times with my ancestors in the Athens Agora spending an enormous amount of their time thinking out loudly their understandings....this is a question that can only be resolved through our personal experiences rather than with the thought that academic reasoning can produce the answer to a question that only our life's journey can teach us...here we can resort to Homer's, Odyssey where he attempts to relate to the daily trials of a man determined to reach his goal while learning that life can be a harsh teacher and our greatest supporter when we choose to learn our lessons that are best learnt through life's travails rather than endless exchanges of ideas that merely reflect on man's capacity to impress lesser beings.
 
You are a master at evading direction points and questions.

Take this statement: "nor are my understandings any the less credible because they do not make sense to you."

Wouldn't this apply to, say, a person who believes incapacitating gays in society is morally virtuous and is operating with good intention? If reality is what you make of it then his reality and moral truth is just as good as yours. Ah, moral relativity--I knew I'd come across you old friend.
 
You are a master at evading direction points and questions.

Take this statement: "nor are my understandings any the less credible because they do not make sense to you."

Wouldn't this apply to, say, a person who believes incapacitating gays in society is morally virtuous and is operating with good intention? If reality is what you make of it then his reality and moral truth is just as good as yours. Ah, moral relativity--I knew I'd come across you old friend.

Thomas Merton said that our ideas about God speak more about ourselves than they do about God.

Jesus invites us to put out into the deep....and experience life....that we may better know who we are...necessarily entailing learning the harsh lessons that life will teach us.

My understanding is that I am in no position to judge the sexual life of another person,, for I also am imperfect, and in need of forgiveness for my many indiscretions knowing that my frailties spur me to improve who I am becoming...thus, I am aware of my need to transform my life.

I am not competent to speak to the self righteous behaviour of the holier than thou brigade who presume to be members of the elect therefore self entitled to judge those who they claim are imperfect.

Those of us who are very well aware that we are as fragile as a flower, weak as a lamb, and filled with fear that we will fail whatever, our next endeavour tread wearily when we are judged, inadequate for our apparent failings by those who assume they know better....
often it is the criticism of our detractors which seeds our determination to succeed, knowing that their belittling of our efforts propels us to prove them a poor judge of our self reliance.
 
Kallipolis, I see your non-sequiturs can still stir some to salute.

But you can't have it both ways, though you try.

If faith can be reasoned as you assert, then perhaps the "science department" can share more light on it than you'd admit.

In fact you do reason it, based on evidence only of your own experience. What that can give you is a personal deity - personal in the sense that it can exist only for you, and only inside your head. But your claims of faith assert that god is out here with the rest of us too. If we were to bravely continue the rational exercise you mention above, the one that began in your head, then suddenly out here the rest of our insights and experiences also carry weight. Lots of us are looking, with keen eyes, into heaven's empty room.

You make a good point in another thread. A rational person need not (and ought not to) reject the possibility of supernatural action a priori. But he must nonetheless have a basis to accept that it is real, or indeed that it could be real.

If this is not to be found in his own experience, he ought not to be judged closed-minded or guilty of a-priori assumptions, but to be an astute observer of his conditions. If it is to be found in someone else's reported experience, then he is well advised to ask questions and judge the likelihood that the other person has understood his experience accurately.
 
Kallipolis, I see your non-sequiturs can still stir some to salute.

But you can't have it both ways, though you try.

If faith can be reasoned as you assert, then perhaps the "science department" can share more light on it than you'd admit.

In fact you do reason it, based on evidence only of your own experience. What that can give you is a personal deity - personal in the sense that it can exist only for you, and only inside your head. But your claims of faith assert that god is out here with the rest of us too. If we were to bravely continue the rational exercise you mention above, the one that began in your head, then suddenly out here the rest of our insights and experiences also carry weight. Lots of us are looking, with keen eyes, into heaven's empty room.

You make a good point in another thread. A rational person need not (and ought not to) reject the possibility of supernatural action a priori. But he must nonetheless have a basis to accept that it is real, or indeed that it could be real.

If this is not to be found in his own experience, he ought not to be judged closed-minded or guilty of a-priori assumptions, but to be an astute observer of his conditions. If it is to be found in someone else's reported experience, then he is well advised to ask questions and judge the likelihood that the other person has understood his experience accurately.

By all means ask questions, but do not expect the answers to satisfy your assertion....that faith needs tangible evidence to convince the sceptic that their doubts can be extinguished by such an answer....and, that the lack of such convincing evidence automatically renders the experience of the believer irrelevant even....imaginary the result of an over worked sense of self reliance upon ones interpretation of numinous phenomena.
 
My only assertion is that it is strange when theists are perplexed that others question their conclusions, when the only way to draw those conclusions is to experience a phenomenon entirely inaccessible to someone else. To the outside observer, the difference between you having a divine personal revelation, and you not having a divine personal revelation, is exactly nothing.
 
It's ALL Relative _ Albert Einstein ..|
 
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