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On establishing secular morality

My only assertion is that it is strange when theists are perplexed that others question their conclusions, when the only way to draw those conclusions is to experience a phenomenon entirely inaccessible to someone else. To the outside observer, the difference between you having a divine personal revelation, and you not having a divine personal revelation, is exactly nothing.

I'm never perplexed that a sceptic should question my experiences with the divine mystery...of whom do you speak?

I do not expect another to embrace my understandings of a numinous experience simply because I say so.

I can only relate to my experiences and the understandings that I draw from my life's lessons.

Were I to deny such experiences, even remain silent I would be guilty of self denial just as much as a closeted gay man refusing to come to terms, with his sexual orientation out of fear that he would be judged, and condemned for being "queer" therefore a questionable influence upon the easily impressionable young person.
 
Faith presupposes and then adheres to what is presupposed. Science, in opposition to faith, self-corrects by discarding what is not supported by mathematics or empirical evidence. Faith is circular: It makes assumptions and then boldly stands by what is asserted. Faith is a word that has no meaning. "Divine experiences" as Kallipolis claims to have... ok, sure, right, yeah....mean nothing to me nor could they ever. But science reveals the nature of our selves and our surroundings. And poolerboy's beginning statement makes a very convincing argument for objective morality which puts the scientific method as superior to the circular fancy of faith.

Imagine an app for objective morality.
 
Establishing objective morality in an open-ended way without regard to confirming one's own religious biases, is not that difficult a task. As Sam Harris has said in his book The Moral Landscape, one merely has to acknowledge that in the evaluation of human behaviors as "right" or "wrong," we must undoubtedly refer to conscious entities—that is, anything that is sentient and has sensory experience. That we categorize human behavior in our interaction with fellow humans and even animals demonstrates our concern for their well-being. Now we have two axiomatic criteria—conscious creatures and well-being—which establishes objective morality. How do those things establish its objectivity? Well, because well-being is not a matter of personal opinion or preference. Imagine, for instance, the worst possibly misery for everyone. This is by definition "bad;" there is nothing conceivably worse since the term captures it. Surely there are right and wrong ways to avoid said misery, and surely there are better, more efficient methods of avoiding it than others. Such a task is an empirical one; that is to say, it will depend upon evidence about states of the world and of our brains. Thus science, broadly construed, is a pragmatic tool in the pursuit of answering these questions. Religion, by contrast, seeks to double-down on conviction and confirmation bias. Supposedly religiously-epistemic tools like "faith" lead only to credulity. If faith is a trust that is imparted onto someone or something giving the believer the feeling of truth, sans evidence, this can and has been applied to virtually anything for which the believer feels affirmed. Nearly all religions and their faithful operate as though they have arrived at moral and supernatural truths and most all of them use "faith" to get to that deep-seated conviction, but it is impossible for all of them to be simultaneously true, given their incompatibilities. Thus, faith has to be jettisoned in favor of epistemic tools like reason and evidence which promote skeptical inquiry and a sounder path toward moral objectivity.

Harris is full of shit -- "well-being" is as subjective as anything else; he's just dressing up his subjective view with the trappings of objectivity to appeal to a certain following.

If he wants an objective foundation for morality, he needs to turn to the fact of self-ownership -- morality can be derived from that starting point.
 
If he wants an objective foundation for morality, he needs to turn to the fact of self-ownership -- morality can be derived from that starting point.

Can you point to some essay or something that represents your view of self-ownership as the basis of morality?
 
Just reread this and I must add, I am certainly not wiling to yield "truth" to the exclusive use of the mystics. Truth is synonymous with fact. A better word for those whose pontifications lead them to strike upon some useful observation, is "insight."
 
Just reread this and I must add, I am certainly not wiling to yield "truth" to the exclusive use of the mystics. Truth is synonymous with fact. A better word for those whose pontifications lead them to strike upon some useful observation, is "insight."

Truth is synonymous with perception, as each of us perceives the lessons that life teaches us...in this sense Kulindahr's observation that self ownership, ones responsibility towards oneself, and our fellow human being determines how we respond to life's stimuli might well assist us appreciate that the responsibility of every human person towards serving the common good is evidence of self ownership as each of us recognises our part in contributing to the well being of the human family.

Insight might well be a reference to intuitive understandings that ""emerge" in each of us, as if by spontaneous chance...leading us to take a course of action that we had not given time to rationalise its consequences. In matters of human relationships I have relied much more upon my so called "gut" instinct than rational determination of the salient facts.
 
Can you point to some essay or something that represents your view of self-ownership as the basis of morality?

I've set it out in posts here.

It basically boils down to an unstated contract: if I want my self-ownership respected, I have to respect that of others. That can be restated as what we call the "Golden Rule". From there, all morality follows.
 
Mine. But this guy has all the technology required for your thoughts to move my fingers.

I get what you're saying I think. I'd prefer "autonomous" to "self-owning" because I think the ownership paradigm makes us just another kind of property.

But at the boundaries I doubt how true it is, and I can think of a thousand scenarios that muddy the waters enough to make "interdependence" seem more realistic, if not quite so far in the other direction as "borg."
 
Mine. But this guy has all the technology required for your thoughts to move my fingers.

I get what you're saying I think. I'd prefer "autonomous" to "self-owning" because I think the ownership paradigm makes us just another kind of property.

But at the boundaries I doubt how true it is, and I can think of a thousand scenarios that muddy the waters enough to make "interdependence" seem more realistic, if not quite so far in the other direction as "borg."

Our ownership of ourselves is the paradigm by which any concept of property must be defined.

"Autonomous" doesn't work because it isn't, really, true, except for a very few broadly skilled and competent individuals, those who are capable of taking care of themselves without any recourse to the efforts of others. Self-ownership doesn't exclude interdependence at all.

Self-ownership is also the reason we are responsible for our own actions; if I don't own myself, then whoever owns me is actually responsible -- and personal responsibility is essential to any system of morals.
 
Our ownership of ourselves is the paradigm by which any concept of property must be defined.

"Autonomous" doesn't work because it isn't, really, true, except for a very few broadly skilled and competent individuals, those who are capable of taking care of themselves without any recourse to the efforts of others. Self-ownership doesn't exclude interdependence at all.

Self-ownership is also the reason we are responsible for our own actions; if I don't own myself, then whoever owns me is actually responsible -- and personal responsibility is essential to any system of morals.

Precisely.
 
The Enlightenment, which established modern Western ideas of morality, is often thought of as a religion, because it assumed several objective truths, namely natural and inalienable rights.
 
The Enlightenment, which established modern Western ideas of morality, is often thought of as a religion, because it assumed several objective truths, namely natural and inalienable rights.


Most of Western Civilisation's principles of morality are founded upon the Judaeo-Christian ethos - try The Ten Commandments.

In the United States it would be reasonable to suggest that natural and inalienable rights were reserved for those persons with white skins otherwise, native Americans and black skinned Americans were denied such rights for some considerable time......Dr. Martin Luther King's famous speech "I have a dream" was delivered some fifty years ago this very week.

Words that speak of liberty are always interesting to hear.....whereas, actions speak much louder.
 
Most of Western Civilisation's principles of morality are founded upon the Judaeo-Christian ethos - try The Ten Commandments.

I really don't see how the Enlightenment was founded on a document that predates Homer.
 
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