On why the Vatican should be sold

[poolerboy]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bObItmxAGc[/ame]

WWJD?

 

[Mariatenebre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bObItmxAGc

WWJD?

I say sell the Vatican, keep the Mary statues and rededicate the religion to Collyridianism!

 

[poolerboy]

In that case, then, the same can then be said for all the churches around the world, including yours, Mariatenebre. Now that should knock out Poverty!

Silverman's point in the video wasn't to get rid of houses of worship. Only to sell filthy excess to feed the starving. The Vatican is a good place to start.

 

[poolerboy]

The Vatican Has sold property in the past. But, Jesus had said that the poor we will always have amongst us. What if all the church property was sold to house and feed the poor, and then the poor keeps popping out of the woodwork; what then? Will you personally help out? After all, the people of God are the Church, not so much the physical buildings and institutions. BTW, my hearing aid is out, so, I can't hear the Video.

Oh the point I don't think was to necessarily eradicate poverty. It's more of an issue of principle. Jesus walking around in sandals no doubt while the Pope roams around a palace in his house that is a city. If the Church has sold its property before and like you said the physical buildings and institutions are not so much the Church, then let's get rid of these excesses and direct the wealth to those who need feeding.

 

[poolerboy]

You may have forgotten that for most of history, that it was the poor who buiilt these beautiful places of Worship, and they have taken pride in the work they did.

Did Jesus tell the authorities of the Temple of his day to sell off their property to feed the masses of the poor? Its most certainly not in scripture, but what is in scripture is the fact that Jesus recognised the Earthly Temple (physical building) as his Father's house, and he even prayed in the temple, drove out the money changers in the temple, because they were turning His Father's house into a den of thieves.

I also don't recall Jesus saying in scripture that the passage of "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" doesn't apply to those who store riches for religious purposes.

Again, the point is to sell of excesses, not get rid of places to worship. Silverman made the point in the video that they could downgrade. This constant apologizing for blatant hypocracy is unsettling.

 

[poolerboy]

1st off, The Pope and all the others in the Vatican doesn't own the Property, it isn't theirs to do as they wish! The Vatican is a city-state. The Vatican is very much involved with the plight of the poor and the destitutes. The Vatican nearly went bankcrupt a few times this past century, ie before 2000. Tell me, Who owns the Vatican??? Who has the sole right to sell the property, etc?

Excerpt of Lateran Treaty of 1929:

Article 13
Italy recognizes the full ownership of the Holy See over the patriarchal Basilicas of St. John Lateran, Sta. Maria Maggiore, and St. Paul, with their annexed buildings.
The State transfers to the Holy See the free management and administration of the said Basilica of St. Paul and its dependent Monastery, also paying over to the Holy See all monies representing the sums set aside annually for that church in the budget of the Ministry of Education.
It is also understood that the Holy See shall remain the absolute owner of the edifice of S. Callisto, adjoining Sta. Maria in Trastevere.

Article 14
Italy recognizes the full ownership by the Holy See of the Papal Palace of Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and dependencies thereof, which are now already in the possession of the Holy See, and Italy also undertakes to hand over, within six months after the coming into force of the present Treaty, the Villa Barberini in Castel Gandolfo, together with all endowments, appurtenances, and dependencies thereof.
In order to round off the property situated on the northern side of the Janiculum Hill, belonging to the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide and to other ecclesiastical institutions, which property faces the Vatican Palaces, the State undertakes to transfer to the Holy See or other bodies appointed by it for such purpose, all real estate belonging to the State or to third parties existing in that area. The properties belonging to the said Congregation and to other institutions and those to be transferred being marked on the annexed map.
Finally, Italy shall transfer to the Holy See, as its full and absolute property, the Convent buildings in Rome attached to the Basilica of the Twelve Holy Apostles and to the churches of San Andrea della Valle and S. Carlo ai Catinari, with all annexes and dependencies thereof, and shall hand them over within one year after the entry into force of the present Treaty, free of all occupants.

Article 15
The property indicated in Article 13 hereof and in paragraphs (1) and (2) of Article 14, as well as the Palaces of the Dataria, of the Cancelleria, of the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda Fide in the Piazza di Spagna of the S. Offizio with its annexes, and those of the Convertendi (now the Congregation of the Eastern Church) in Piazza Scossacavelli, the Vicariato, and all other edifices in which the Holy See shall subsequently desire to establish other offices and departments although such edifices form part of the territory belonging to the Italian State, shall enjoy the immunity granted by International Law to the headquarters of the diplomatic agents of foreign States. Similar immunity shall also apply with regard to any other churches (even if situated outside Rome) during such time as, without such churches being open to the public, the Supreme Pontiff shall take part in religious ceremonies celebrated therein.

Article 16
The property mentioned in the three preceding Articles, as also that used as headquarters of the following Papal institutions - the Gregorian University, the Biblical, Oriental, and Archaeological Institutes, the Russian Seminary, the Lombard College, the two Palaces of St. Apollinaris, and the Home of the Retreat of the Clergy dedicated to St. John and St. Paul - shall never be subject to charges or to expropriation for reasons of public utility, save by previous agreement with the Holy See, and shall be exempt from any contribution or tax, whether ordinary or extraordinary and payable to the State or to any other body.
It shall be permissible for the Holy See to deal with all buildings above mentioned or referred to in the three preceding Articles as it may deem fit, without obtaining the authorization or consent of the Italian governmental, provincial, or communal authority, which authorities may in this regard rely entirely on the high artistic traditions of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Mariatenebre]

In that case, then, the same can then be said for all the churches around the world, including yours, Mariatenebre. Now that should knock out Poverty!

I don't have a church and I worship at home on my own alter. The best we have is a Church in Oregon and one in South Africa. Next you are taking this topic way to seriously it is a joke. No one is seriously considering selling the Vatican, this video is made as a joke and not meant to be taken seriously.

 

[poolerboy]

I don't have a church and I worship at home on my own alter. The best we have is a Church in Oregon and one in South Africa. Next you are taking this topic way to seriously it is a joke. No one is seriously considering selling the Vatican, this video is made as a joke and not meant to be taken seriously.

Very true although I was trying to see if I could get him to sympathize with the idea of ridding excesses for the benefit of the less fortunate and the fact that he's been so forcefully opposed to it from the getgo is quite telling.

 

[Mariatenebre]

Very true although I was trying to see if I could get him to sympathize with the idea of ridding excesses for the benefit of the less fortunate and the fact that he's been so forcefully opposed to it from the getgo is quite telling.

I know it is quite telling, I would gladly give up my statues and rosaries to help the poor. Which is something as I am very attached to them especially my Our Lady of Guadalupe statue.

 

[Mariatenebre]

What happened to Pumpkin?

I don't get why Pumpkin keeps posting as a guest.

 

[Kulindahr]

1st off, The Pope and all the others in the Vatican doesn't own the Property, it isn't theirs to do as they wish! The Vatican is a city-state. The Vatican is very much involved with the plight of the poor and the destitutes. The Vatican nearly went bankcrupt a few times this past century, ie before 2000. Tell me, Who owns the Vatican??? Who has the sole right to sell the property, etc?

Now, tell me who owns the Holy See? Who are the Holy See?

That's easy, actually:

The Holy See is the episcopal jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome, commonly known as the Pope, and is the preeminent episcopal see of the Catholic Church, forming the central government of the Church. As such, diplomatically, and in other spheres the Holy See acts and speaks for the whole Catholic Church. It is also recognized by other subjects of international law as a sovereign entity, headed by the Pope, with which diplomatic relations can be maintained.[1]

The Holy See is not the same as the Vatican City State, which came into existence only in 1929, while the Holy See dates back to early Christian times. Ambassadors are officially accredited not to the Vatican City State but to "the Holy See", and papal representatives to states and international organizations are recognized as representing the Holy See, not the Vatican City State.

While all episcopal sees are "holy", the expression "the Holy See" (without further specification) is normally used in international relations, as a metonym, (as well as in the canon law of the Catholic Church)[2] to refer to the See of Rome viewed as the central government of the Catholic Church.

Now:

Vatican City is an ecclesiastical or sacerdotal-monarchical state, ruled by the bishop of Rome—the Pope. The highest state functionaries are all Catholic clergymen of various racial, ethnic and national backgrounds. It is the sovereign territory of the Holy See (Sancta Sedes) and the location of the Pope's residence, referred to as the Apostolic Palace.

What it comes down to is that the Vatican is a kingdom and the Pope is the king, which means he owns it.

 

[poolerboy]

I'm afraid that will only fall on deaf ears.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm afraid that will only fall on deaf ears.

So did most of Jesus' words.

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW, I've given up trying to find a piece I read once. Some economist decided to see how big a deal it would be to actually sell the Vatican. His conclusion was that the church would just end up having to buy similar real estate and building all over again, and that there would probably be a net loss on the deal.

The thing is, a body as large as the RC Church needs a "corporate headquarters". Looked at that way, the Vatican isn't all that large.

OTOH, it's not well organized, either; the place wasn't built as an administrative center.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

The problem of world-hunger is mostly a problem of malnutrition and balefully inadequate government.
For example, neither Ethiopia nor Egypt are countries that cannot be farmed. In Ethiopia famines exist because the farmers volunteer for war instead. In Egypt what arable land there is, is used for residential building. Most western nations would tolerate such a threat to common welfare.

Giving away money does not help. It never has.

 

[chatolandia]

Hunger is caused by accidents of nature

Famine is caused by corrupt government


Famine is a man made event

 

[Kulindahr]

The problem of world-hunger is mostly a problem of malnutrition and balefully inadequate government.
For example, neither Ethiopia nor Egypt are countries that cannot be farmed. In Ethiopia famines exist because the farmers volunteer for war instead. In Egypt what arable land there is, is used for residential building. Most western nations would tolerate such a threat to common welfare.

Giving away money does not help. It never has.

As in building on farmland, it's also a matter of throwing away resources. One reason China has so much good agricultural land is that they've never been so foolish as to just throw their refuse into the sea -- including human shit. they've composted it along with vegetable matter for thousands of years, to the point that they actually have deeper topsoil in many places than when agriculture was first introduced there. We're finally catching up; I know of two places in Oregon which turn sewage waste into rich, rich compost (we used it to plant a lawn: instead of six to ten days for the first seedlings to appear, it was two; instead of weeks till first mowing, it was days). Many people are too finicky to use such stuff; they shudder at the thought -- though many do use it, unknowingly; one of the places sells much of theirs to local landscaping outfits, which mix it with their own materials and sell it as "Home Compost" (yep, it came from home, all right! ) or (I like this name) "Down 'N Dirty Compost" or something.

 

[LinusQ]

I believe Jesus would be all for selling the Vatican and all the church's properties. Look at the history of the "Holy" Roman Church. How many millions, maybe billions did they kill in the name of Jesus. QUOTE]

Utter rot, the catholic church never killed either millions or billions of people.

AS for selling it, do you also think the English church should sell its cathedrals, the evangelical church sell its crystal cathedral, and so on? This is undisguised bigotry.

 

[LinusQ]

Even though I can't stomach looking at, listening to, reading about or even thinking about Sarah Silverman in any way, shape, or form and think she has no value whatsoever, not even as a speed bump, I do like this idea of selling off the Vatican (and I'm a recovered Catholic myself). My sister was at the Vatican in October and described it as an "enchanted forest of marble."

Sounds like a good reason for keeping it. Enchanted places are important to the human spirit.

 

[Kulindahr]

I believe Jesus would be all for selling the Vatican and all the church's properties. Look at the history of the "Holy" Roman Church. How many millions, maybe billions did they kill in the name of Jesus. QUOTE]

Utter rot, the catholic church never killed either millions or billions of people.

AS for selling it, do you also think the English church should sell its cathedrals, the evangelical church sell its crystal cathedral, and so on? This is undisguised bigotry.

Since Pumpkin is no longer with us and I knew him somewhat, I'll answer on his behalf.

Okay, it probably wasn't billions. Maybe it wasn't millions, either. But they used their authority like they were an empire, and had people burned at the stake in the name of Jesus.

And yes -- if the Vatican is to be sold, so should all those other gaudy monuments to wealth.