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Pakistan passes equal rights to Transgender people.

When I studied and visited hijras when I was younger (just at an undergrad level) I came to think that hijras weren't ultimately one thing. It was a tradition which in its own way accommodated a variety of backgrounds. Some hijras appeared to be very feminine males; some were born with non-standard genitals; some underwent inexpensive, homespun surgeries. I have no way to confirm this because my contact was limited, but it seemed very likely that some probably elected life as a third-gender because it provided a shady umbrella under which they could enjoy their sex lives. Some hijras voluntarily joined up. Some were adopted. Hijras align most closely with our notion of transgendered people, but I really have the sense that it's a more expansive category.

It seems to me like a perfectly natural way for any society to allow for a variety of makes and models even if it doesn't exactly coincide with my own personal understanding of myself as a cisgendered gay man.

I think it's worth remembering that Pakistan is a country with a lot of shit to deal with. If it takes a while for a widely homosocial country with a different history regarding sexuality and gender than the West's to include our own notions of sex/gender roles, then that only makes sense. Who knows? Maybe someday two cisgendered men will be married to one another in Pakistan because they are 'hijras'? (Note: not that I see that, as CG apparently does, as the ultimate blossom of progress.)

In any case, it appears to me that we in the West have our own problems to work on around sex/gender, so I find it somewhat condescending to propose so loudly the superiority of our own ways.
 
ChickenGuy said:
Pakistan is not some beacon of social-progressive values, it is not the California of the Muslim world. If you don't examine the underlying societal and religious issues and the reasoning behind such moves, then it's just meaningless.

Well if I just go over now at take a look at the usual first source that everyone uses for everything:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Pakistan

How many examples in that article would you like?

That last one highlights exactly what I was getting at in my previous post - they are supportive of transvestites - men taking on a feminine role for sex so as to fit into predetermined societal and cultural norms. It is a custom, not a sign of any wider acceptance.

At the very end of that Wiki article there is a Summary Table. Note the red crosses in everything except where transgender is concerned. It says just about all you need to know.
Click to expand...

It's kind of funny that your wiki article quotes consistently refute the existence of lgbT rights in light of the OP's article, don't you think?

Also, distinguishing so sharply, as you do, between "customs" and "signs of wider of acceptance" is a bit odd. I mean, aren't "predetermined societal and cultural norms" in some crucial sense things that are accepted?
 
What is the opposite of an active transvestite?

Are they sleeper transvestites?
 
Certainly we in the US can't claim cultural superiority as we are having enough problems accepting the Supreme Court's validation of same sex marriage nationally. And bathroom laws in some states that punish people who are not accepted for the individual sexual identity they feel most comfortable with. I don't think the West is so innately superior, attitudes and customs are in flux even here and only relatively recently has LBGT equal rights under the law even been a major effort.
 
Goes considerably farther than some state's bathroom laws. Basic healthcare, work and housing also come to mind. I don't expect the USA as a whole to be in the top baker's dozen with regards to rights, on paper or otherwise. Theres oodles of countries that do better than the USA.

Considering that Pakistan seems to have had cultural acknowledgement, that is, a social place for lgbt within the various cultures longer than large chunks of the Western world (positive & negative), I'm not surprised. They'll probably get it signed before us too, though perhaps not in this round. Particularly if you take into account hetero/homo (& by extension, bi) sexuality as distinct concepts (as opposed to behavior) being a relatively recent invention for the west.
 
I do include the basics too, it's more a "for instance".... and yes, to that effect we have a lot of initiatives designed around the guise of "religious liberty" which is just an excuse to keep targeting and discriminating against the LGBT community.
 
ChickenGuy said:
Pakistan is not some beacon of social-progressive values, it is not the California of the Muslim world. If you don't examine the underlying societal and religious issues and the reasoning behind such moves, then it's just meaningless.



Well if I just go over now at take a look at the usual first source that everyone uses for everything:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Pakistan

How many examples in that article would you like?













That last one highlights exactly what I was getting at in my previous post - they are supportive of transvestites - men taking on a feminine role for sex so as to fit into predetermined societal and cultural norms. It is a custom, not a sign of any wider acceptance.

At the very end of that Wiki article there is a Summary Table. Note the red crosses in everything except where transgender is concerned. It says just about all you need to know.
Click to expand...

In the article I posted it said there is heavy discrimination towards transgendered people and obviously this is what this law was passed, to protect them from discrimination.

I don’t understand what the support of transvestites has to do with the Goverment pushing more equality for Transgender people. Nor do I see the correlation with gender roles having to do with anything about the article I posted considering it is explicity stating Transgendered people.

Pakistan might not be some social beacon of progress but they are making progress considering this actually passed. And something like that should be highlighted and discussed regardless if it is ahead or behind any other culture in the world.
 
MakeDigitalLove said:
In the article I posted it said there is heavy discrimination towards transgendered people and obviously this is what this law was passed, to protect them from discrimination.

I don’t understand what the support of transvestites has to do with the Goverment pushing more equality for Transgender people. Nor do I see the correlation with gender roles having to do with anything about the article I posted considering it is explicity stating Transgendered people.
Click to expand...

Western, how-to-describe, English speakers tend to separate the wearing of clothing along either gender role lines or 'sexual deviancy'. One of several reasons, I think, why many old-guard transsexuals cling to a 'one true way' model and dismiss other's gendered journeys. Also might be why the USA/Canada/whomever else has an insistence that you're not 'really real' unless you get a full kit and blend seemlessly.

I doubt some posters on the board would be pleased to acknowledge that wearing gendered clothing may be intended to broadcast no sexual or identity information, or, contrary-wise, indicate several possibly gendered descriptions from the presentation permutations.

But I think he brought up the transvestite description cuz he's aiming for the imagination-induced 'forcing gay people to transition' narrative (and a real oldie that one tends to be. I wanna say the 70's) while ignoring that trans, genderqueer, gender variant choose-your-terms categories (they don't all mean the same thing and the fine definitions vary depending on who you ask) may not feel the need or want to change their gender role, physicality, mannerisms, sexuallity or dress sense. Course, that'll be an inconvenient truth once people start getting past the whole idea of mandatory extremes being the only dividing line between categories.

(The wiki prolly says transvesticism due to English translation issues and that being the closest approximation for slightly different cultural interpretations of actions/events.)
 
luckynumbah7 said:
Is it me or did you just shoot the entire male gender in the foot by claiming men haven't the self control not to assault someone should they be in the same changing room? Cuz that's what I get from that article. Among other things.

Doesn't say much about you, does it.
Click to expand...
Lol!!! Hey I didnt write the article or commit the crimes. I just showed your hero is full of shit, as usual. Check all the facts for yourself.
 
mikey3000 said:
Dingleberry Award winner.
Click to expand...

He's got a ways to go to beat your record

adele-grammy-win-album-of-the-year-_-red-online__square.jpg
 
nycguydowntown said:
IS this that Indian-Pakistani cultural thing where they accept trans but kill gays?
Click to expand...

I'd put it another way, but yes. Also Arab. So basically the cultures in the sotadic zone if you will.

In a nutshell:

Gender and sexuality is different from that in the West. There are men, women, and trans.

No gays. Not allowed. That is why gays are persecuted.

Why? Because it's hyperpatriarchal and masculinity is fetishized. They put an emphasis on family pretty much to the exclusion of everything else. Ergo, on procreation.

The only gays accepted then are trans. They live as women to serve men. Or you're not gay if you are the top. These fall within their patriarchal contract and does not threaten family and procreation.

The West is different because its historical experience is filtered by enlightenment values and its resulting ideas such as feminism.
 
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