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Parents circumsizing their sons.

In an ideal world, this decision should be our own and not our parents'.

A former partner of mine had the operation as an adult which brought this to my attention years ago. Now, I'd have to say I mostly agree with Comet.

I definitely agree that uncut cocks do smell, even the guys who clean often, in no time at all, there's a distinct odor.... I also trust the spread of HIV research.

I realize there's a lot of emotion attached to the issue, each side being so adamant.

We'll never eliminate this practice, anyway, since major religions require it. So we should learn to live with it....
 
lol at religion... I'm trying to learn to live while people hurt their kids with religion, but it's going slow apparently.

I don't really have a preference, either way it's still a dick. but having either option seems to be the best choice... and the lower risk of spreading HIV is certainly a strange argument, because who would knowingly take that chance and use lack of foreskin as justification?
 
As far as I know, they do use anesthesia on babies now. That is the one thing I am against.

Yikes! You are against anesthesia on babies?[-X
Does that mean you endured the painful procedure w/o anesthesia as an adult?[-X
 
Everyone I know who is uncut is glad they are. I think they should be banned unless there is a medical reason for it or the person is an adult and making the decision for themselves.
 
WHY any parent parent would choose to mutilate the infant son escapes me.

What's next - newborn Prince Albert's? Why not - daddy has one.
 
once again .. keep this thread on track.
this is the no-flame zone, and this thread is about *parents* circumsizing their sons. and while the pro/anti circ discussion might be a part of it, posting pictures of the preferred "dick" version is kinda borderline, screaming "eeew" certainly is the way to derail this thread further.
again: this thread is not about your personal preference, it's about whether the parents have the right to make the decision for their kids.
 
When I was born my parents decided to have me circumcised.

It was the worst decision ever made in my life.

When the procedure was being done they would use a small bell shaped object that would slide over the head of the penis and then they would cut away the excess skin.

Unfortunately for me they did not have a bell big enough to fit over my penis so they just made a triangular incision at the top of the glans and snipped off a portion.

that portion of my penis is now constantly exposed and after a period of time during sex it becomes irritated and raw and hurts like hell.

I regret the decision my parents made all those years ago and have been doing exercises to restore my foreskin.

Also in the 30 years I have been here I must admit to having only 1 cut boyfriend. Everyone else was uncut and none of them smelled or had any build up or any of the negative things normally associated with them.
 
In many instances of non-religious circumcision, it is usually the mother who takes the decision to have her son circumcised after birth, the father does not normally get involved with the decision because his mother gave her consent for his circumcision.

In the US, it is not the mother who makes the decision- the discussion about circumcision is done with the participation of both parents. The parental decision is usually made based upon religious preference but also whether other males in the family are circumcised. The overall trend in the US is toward reduction in circumcisions.


It is wrong to use the argument that an uncircumcised penis is the harbinger of HIV; I believe the studies that suggested this were carried out on the African continent where the majority of non-Muslim men (id est uncircumcised) are Catholics...

Your conclusion is correct but your supporting argument is not.

Everyone seems to invalidate the HIV studies done on the African continent based upon the assumption that any research coming from Africa is dubious. This was not one study- it was a many studies and the consistent conclusion in the studies was that there was a higher risk of HIV infection in uncircumcised men. The conclusion was so statistically signficant (between 40-70%), that some of the studies were halted because of ethical concerns with allowing the uncircumcised population to continue with unsafe sex practices for the purpose of the study.

None of the studies recommended circumcision as a solution to the African HIV epidemic- they only studied a phenomenon that had already been observed empirically in the population. The solution has always been to change the sexual practices by increased use of contraception, reduced prostitution and better public health practices.

For those interested in reading the a comprehensive analysis and review of the studies, the citations are below:

Weiss HA, Quigley MA, Hayes RJ. Male circumcision and risk of HIV infection in sub- Saharan Africa: a systematic review and metaanalysis. AIDS. 2000 Oct 20;14(15):2361-70.

Gray RH, Kiwanuka N, Quinn TC, et al. Male circumcision and HIV acquisition and transmission: cohort studies in Rakai, Uganda. AIDS. 2000 Oct 20;14(15):2371-81.

The argument regarding a connection between contraceptive practices and religion in Africa is making a lot of assumptions. To assume that Coptic and subsaharan catholics are not using condoms for religious reasons is not correct. If this were the case, we would expect that a Roman Catholic country like the Phillipines or Mexico would have a rampant HIV problem. In contrast, there are studies of African populations that indicate that Roman Catholics are more likely to use contraception than groups with no religious affiliation. And in South Africa where the incidence of HIV in women of child-bearing age may be as high as 20%, most catholics are Zionists- not Roman Catholics and there is no Zion catholic church position in opposition to the use of condoms.

The issues with HIV in Africa have more to do with the extreme poverty and the abyssmal public health practices there. People who are struggling with life's basic necessities aren't spending money on condoms. It is only recently that free condoms have been widely distributed in Africa and by then, the problem was so widespread that the condom programs were too little, too late.
 
Something like 2 in every 10,000 or 1,000 circumcised boys int he US have a botched circumcision (I don't recall the actually stat from my repro health lecture), and that means that basically the penis of 2 newborn boys in 10,000 (let's play it safe) is destroyed by a procedure that, in the US, has become largely habitual rather than medical. Nowadays, doctors schedule newborns to be circumcised without the parents' consent and parents must be aware enough to request it NOT to be performed.

The current practice (and controversy) in HIV prevention is to circumcise the greater male population in Africa, as it causes the penis to keratinize to a degree and removes the cell layers in the foreskin that bind to HIV more easily. However, it is poor medical/health practice to perform surgeries to be preventative (such as taking out someone's tonsils and appendix when nothing's happened to them). Likewise, it is better to circumcise individuals when providing them with condoms will give them even MORE protection and you can also teach them to practice safe sex, rather than giving them a very small amount of protection and failing to educate/reinforce safer sex practices.

The "hygiene" argument in the developed world is antiquated. It's an issue when people don't bathe regularly if at all, but that is not the case in the developed world.

Religious reasons are a whole other issue, but we don't all do things that they used to in the old days, do we?

Finally, I feel it's an affront to personal body rights for parents in developed worlds to opt on what amounts to a cosmetic operation on their children's genitalia. It amounts to being cosmetic, and with the botch rate, can even be called mutilation. It's fine if an adult or a teen decides to get circumcised, but it's not okay with me for one to be performed when the individual cannot make the choice themselves.

And until relatively recently, circumcisions were performed sans-anesthetic, under the belief that the baby would not remember the pain in their infancy and later life. That alone is horrific. The danger, of course, is that I believe that anesthetics for newborns is more dangerous (feel free to clarify if you know).

But given all of the dangers and outcomes and the lack of any significant benefits that can't be achieved through other means, I'd say that circumcisions are outdated and bridge on the barbaric.
 
Correction to my earlier statement:

About <0.1% of male neonatal circumcisions result in "trauma to the penis" (glans, frenulum, and/or urethra).

Thinking of that in populations of 10,000, again, makes me even more uncomfortable with the procedure on newborns.
 
Nowadays, doctors schedule newborns to be circumcised without the parents' consent and parents must be aware enough to request it NOT to be performed.

I don't think so. This would be considered illegal and unethical. The circumcision (or any surgery for that matter) requires the consent of the parents in the US.
The danger, of course, is that I believe that anesthetics for newborns is more dangerous

more dangerous than what? It is more dangerous than no anesthetic, but I'm unaware of an increased risk simply because of age assuming a competent anesthesiologist in both cases.
 
I don't think so. This would be considered illegal and unethical. The circumcision (or any surgery for that matter) requires the consent of the parents in the US.


more dangerous than what? It is more dangerous than no anesthetic, but I'm unaware of an increased risk simply because of age assuming a competent anesthesiologist in both cases.
Based on the testimonies we read concerning parents and their experiences with circumcision processes, they stated that doctors signed up their newborns for circumcisions automatically and one mother stated that she had to tell someone three times that she did not want her son circumcised when they came to take him for the procedure. Of course, that's an individual testimonial, in an anti-circumcision newsletter no less, but part of our course materials. Anecdotal at best, but...

As for the anesthetic (or lack thereof) I recall (but again, I could be wrong, hence the note that someone in the know should clarify) is that newborns are less likely to receive anesthetic surgeries because they are at higher risk of complications resulting from the anesthesia.

Here is an excerpt from "Neonatal anesthesia" in Pediatrics:
In the past, some practicing physicians have advocated withholding anesthetic or analgesic agents from neonates undergoing surgical procedures. The rationale expressed for such practice is that some neonates undergoing surgery are often so unstable that the risk of an anesthetic agent is too great to justify the possible benefit of pain relief. An analogy may be drawn to the adult patient with major trauma who must undergo life-saving surgery in whom anesthesia is reduced or withheld because of the fear of worsening an already compromised physiologic homeostasis.1 Also cited in support of this practice is the impression that nerve pathways are not sufficiently myelinated to transmit painful stimuli or that neonates do not have sufficiently integrated cortical function to recall painful experiences.
However, it seems that more physicians have followed official endorsements in favor of anesthetizing newborns for the practice of circumcision under evidence that shows this risk to be less than believed and that they respond similarly to adults. Also, since the evidence supporting the lack of pain transmission is lacking, this would also detract from the earlier anti-anesthetic belief and support the pro-anesthesia practice.
 
I attempted to provide the sources, but I got timed out. Here's the revised post with the sources I am familiar with:

I don't think so. This would be considered illegal and unethical. The circumcision (or any surgery for that matter) requires the consent of the parents in the US.
Around 1999, the practice without complete consent was banned, though the practice up until then demonstrates that informed consent was loosely upheld when related to this matter. Anecdotal, but here's the article:

From NOCIRC of Michigan, Vol. 4, Num. 2, March 2000
Mis-Informed Consent?
Why Parents Really Choose to Circumcise Their Sons
by Jennifer Gardner
It was about 4:00 in the afternoon in mid-October, 1997. Twenty-four hours before, I’d given birth to my first child: a healthy 7 lb. 11 oz. boy named Nathan. I was relaxing with my new family when a knock came at the door and in walks a medical professional. He’s a young-ish man – probably a resident – carrying a clipboard in one hand, and wheeling behind him a cart of medical paraphernalia in the other.

“I’m here to take Nathan down to be circumcised,” he announces to me, as he
hands me the clipboard.

“But I already told three people: I don’t want him circumcised!” I objected, huff-
ily.

Each of the other times I’d been asked–by the Ob/Gyn and the nurses I said no. And each time they smiled and replied, “Good!” This time, it was the last straw.

The medic pressed the issue. “But, his name’s up on the board,” he whined.

At this, I practically shouted at him, “Well, take it off, then!”

This was my introduction to the world of informed consent for newborn circumcision. I thought you just said yes or no, signed the paper if it was “yes,” didn’t sign if it was “no,” and that was it.

Not long after, I phoned my former childbirth class educator who worked as a midwife at the hospital. She told me that circumcision is assumed for boys, unless noted otherwise.

While pregnant with my 2nd child, I mentioned this incident to my OB. “They probably just didn't want to miss
anyone who wanted it.” This answer caught me by surprise. Better that they make sure they don’t miss anyone who doesn’t want it! Still, it wasn’t that the man had simply asked me if I'd like it done; he told me that he was there to take my son!

One would think that a hospital would uphold the law that says they must obtain a parent’s written consent before performing a circumcision. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Medical historian Frederick Hodges has
spoken about informed consent during the 20th century:

"The process of adopting the concept of informed consent into standard hospital practice, especially for surgeries that had never been considered risky enough to require consent, did not get underway, in most cases, until the 1970s. This applies to neonatal circumcision as well as many other aspects of medical practice. In almost all cases the movement for informed consent was initiated by patients and their lawyers, rather than doctors and hospitals.

In the particular case of circumcision, hospitals instituted their informed consent procedure, as minimal and unsatisfactory as it is, as a result of various lawsuits, which were reported in the medical press as warnings. Two of these critical lawsuits were brought against hospitals by Orthodox Jews, ironically, who were horrified that their babies had been circumcised in the hospital without their permission, thus destroying any possibility of a proper Bris Milah on the 8th day. Even today, there are many doctors who do not bother to inquire. They just assume that all parents would want all babies to be circumcised."

In March, 1999 the American Academy of Pediatrics announced that after having reviewed the last 40 years of studies on the subject, they could find very minimal evidence of medical benefits of infant circumcision, and therefore cannot recommend it be performed for all boys.

more dangerous than what? It is more dangerous than no anesthetic, but I'm unaware of an increased risk simply because of age assuming a competent anesthesiologist in both cases.

As for the anesthetic (or lack thereof) I recall (but again, I could be wrong, hence the note that someone in the know should clarify) is that newborns are less likely to receive anesthetic surgeries because they are at higher risk of complications resulting from the anesthesia.

Here is an excerpt from "Neonatal anesthesia" in Pediatrics:
In the past, some practicing physicians have advocated withholding anesthetic or analgesic agents from neonates undergoing surgical procedures. The rationale expressed for such practice is that some neonates undergoing surgery are often so unstable that the risk of an anesthetic agent is too great to justify the possible benefit of pain relief. An analogy may be drawn to the adult patient with major trauma who must undergo life-saving surgery in whom anesthesia is reduced or withheld because of the fear of worsening an already compromised physiologic homeostasis.1 Also cited in support of this practice is the impression that nerve pathways are not sufficiently myelinated to transmit painful stimuli or that neonates do not have sufficiently integrated cortical function to recall painful experiences.
However, it seems that more physicians have followed official endorsements in favor of anesthetizing newborns for the practice of circumcision under evidence that shows this risk to be less than believed and that they respond similarly to adults. Also, since the evidence supporting the lack of pain transmission is lacking, this would also detract from the earlier anti-anesthetic belief and support the pro-anesthesia practice.
 
Now maybe those parents didn't know what they were signing, but without a signature? I don't believe that. Imagine the lawsuits...
 
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