Pelosi pandering to illegals

[Glafna]

Your arguments are absurd, and like most arguments from the bleeding heart left, are based upon emotion rather than logic. Nobody earns the right to stay in this country by virtue of having eluded apprehension for a long enough period of time.

Take a look at immigration laws in other countries, Mexico, for example. They, at least, have some sense of controlling their borders.

I am neither a bleeding heart, nor an illogical person. Please point out, with ACTUAL reasons, other then the usual right-wing propaganda and dismissing, where I am being illogical?

So even if they live the life of a normal American citizen for several years, they do not deserve the same rights? Nor have they earned the right to live in the country if they have paid taxes.. went to work everyday.. done nearly everything that a regular American citizen does.. WITHOUT committing a single crime since they entered the country??

As I said, you are making yourself to be a prime example of the uncaring-right, only giving a shit long enough to gather a few moderates to your flag. However, you probably never gave a shit about anyone who you weren't related to.

 

[HenryReardon]

Heh... You just made yourself a prime example of the uncaring right..

.

Thank you for proving my point.

Decisions affecting the fate of nations cannot, must not, be made on the basis of emotion - call it caring, call it feeling, call it what you will.

 

[HenryReardon]

I am neither a bleeding heart, nor an illogical person.

QUOTE]

Of course you are. It is self-evidently obvious.

End of conversation.

 

[Spensed]

I am neither a bleeding heart, nor an illogical person. Please point out, with ACTUAL reasons, other then the usual right-wing propaganda and dismissing, where I am being illogical?

So even if they live the life of a normal American citizen for several years, they do not deserve the same rights? Nor have they earned the right to live in the country if they have paid taxes.. went to work everyday.. done nearly everything that a regular American citizen does.. WITHOUT committing a single crime since they entered the country??

As I said, you are making yourself to be a prime example of the uncaring-right, only giving a shit long enough to gather a few moderates to your flag. However, you probably never gave a shit about anyone who you weren't related to.

Guys. who just want to deal with illegal immigrants by trowing them out en masse or worse, are motivated by something other than logic and trying to find workable solutions.

So all one typically gets back is the bleeding heart, bedwetting accusations. Lord spare us from angry bottoms and insecure tops.

The fact of the matter is that, for practical, economic and social reasons, some more constructive resolution than mass repatriation or shooting them at the border will need to be found.

And all the ranting from the anti-immigrant crowd isn't going to change that.

 

[Glafna]

I am neither a bleeding heart, nor an illogical person.

QUOTE]

Of course you are. It is self-evidently obvious.

End of conversation.

self-evidently obvious....

Now why does that sound like a made up phrase to try to impress someone.

So you have absolutely NO arguments other then I'm a bleeding heart or illogical????

You can't come up with a single reason WHY I was wrong with my estimation of what they risk to get to our respective countries, nor my comments on the use of non-lethal force?

Or how about how some actually end up living as normal citizens?????


.... Your REALLY starting to come across as a troll.... just as I was beginning to gain some respect for you as a poster.

 

[HenryReardon]

self-evidently obvious....

Now why does that sound like a made up phrase to try to impress someone.

So you have absolutely NO arguments other then I'm a bleeding heart or illogical????

You can't come up with a single reason WHY I was wrong with my estimation of what they risk to get to our respective countries, nor my comments on the use of non-lethal force?

Or how about how some actually end up living as normal citizens?????


.... Your REALLY starting to come across as a troll.... just as I was beginning to gain some respect for you as a poster.

Credit for the phrase goes to one of my favorite authors.

Your emotion-based arguments are, in the end, irrelevant and pointless.

What they do or do not risk doesn't matter - that too is irrelevant.

They cannot, by definition, live as normal citizens - always have to be wary.


That old "t" word is as meaninglessly stupid as the "r" word.

 

[Kulindahr]

People are forgetting that many illegals coming from Mexico are also stealing identities to stay here. The simple fact of the matter is comparing illegal aliens today with immigrants of the past is like comparing someone who buys his groceries with money he works for with someone who shoplifts.

I talked with a guy a while back who got his annual Social Security statement of projected benefits, and discovered that he had hundreds of extra work credits for the prior year -- all earned in some rural community in Arizona, while he was living here in Oregon.

 

[Spensed]

....self-evidently obvious....

Now why does that sound like a made up phrase to try to impress someone.

So you have absolutely NO arguments other then I'm a bleeding heart or illogical????

You can't come up with a single reason WHY I was wrong with my estimation of what they risk to get to our respective countries, nor my comments on the use of non-lethal force?

Or how about how some actually end up living as normal citizens?????

.... Your REALLY starting to come across as a troll.... just as I was beginning to gain some respect for you as a poster.

Exactly my impression from the recent healthcare thread, apart from the "beginning to gain some respect for...[him]...as a poster" part. LOL.

 

[Oceansluver78]

As an American of Mexican background I can tell you from personal accounts of Mexican citizens that they dislike their illegal aliens. So much so that they deport them immediately with no due process. They have heavily guarded military protecting their border with Central America to enforce their strong stance against illegal immigration.

As for the reason that they don't claim income tax refunds is because the vast majority DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I find it disturbing that I had to get my birth certificate, high school records, and my bank records to get my drivers license, but an illegal alien I worked with stole the tags of a car at a rest area in North Carolina and then was pulled over while using a stolen ID. And that ID was of a guy that was wanted for 3 felonies in California!

And that's just one of many horror stories.

 

[Spensed]

As an American of Mexican background I can tell you from personal accounts of Mexican citizens that they dislike their illegal aliens. So much so that they deport them immediately with no due process. They have heavily guarded military protecting their border with Central America to enforce their strong stance against illegal immigration.

As for the reason that they don't claim income tax refunds is because the vast majority DO NOT PAY TAXES!

I find it disturbing that I had to get my birth certificate, high school records, and my bank records to get my drivers license, but an illegal alien I worked with stole the tags of a car at a rest area in North Carolina and then was pulled over while using a stolen ID. And that ID was of a guy that was wanted for 3 felonies in California!

And that's just one of many horror stories.

Mexico doesn't set the standard for US immigration policy.

Getting taxes from illegal immigrants would be easier if they were legal.

To say the obvious, some US citizens also steal IDs and commit felonies that doesn't mean that all, or even most US citizens, steal IDs and commit felonies or that stealing IDs and committing felonies are in any way generally relevant when considering most US citizens....or most illegal immigrants.

Yes illegal immigrants are here illegally and yes their being here bring burdens and benefits. But we have to move forward from the situation. The mass deportation and such quick fixes are pure fantasy. They're almost all never going to happen for practical, economic and social reasons. The solution has to be found in other more constructive and less negative ways.

 

[Oceansluver78]

[F Sans MS]Mexico doesn't set the standard for US immigration policy.

Getting taxes from illegal immigrants would be easier if they were legal.

To say the obvious, some US citizens also steal IDs and commit felonies that doesn't mean that all, or even most US citizens, steal IDs and commit felonies or that stealing IDs and committing felonies are in any way generally relevant when considering most US citizens....or most illegal immigrants.

Yes illegal immigrants are here illegally and yes their being here bring burdens and benefits. But we have to move forward from the situation. The mass deportation and such quick fixes are pure fantasy. They're almost all never going to happen for practical, economic and social reasons. The solution has to be found in other more constructive and less negative ways.[/FONT]

OHHHHH We have a policy? please be sure to state what it is because as far as I can tell, we don't have one! And yes Mexicos policy is revelant in the since that if they have a 100% no tolerance policy why shouldn't we?

 

[Spensed]

^ Whether the US currently has an effective policy or not isn't material to the Mexican policy. The issue is whether the Mexican policy you're proposing we use would be beneficial here.

A 100% no tolerance policy in the US is a complete anti-immigrant fantasy. The numbers, logistics, economic and social impact on US citizens, including the children of the illegal immigrants, who have been born here, the years of not doing doing about it, etc., etc., are all too great.

I suspect the issues in Mexico are simply different.

It's a problem that illegal immigrants break the law and we're not doing enough to deal with it. But, in a way, it's phony priority used to rabble rouse people. If all the illegal immigrants were kicked out tomorrow, it would have a significant negative impact on many US citizens and businesses. But more importantly I doubt it would have any positive impact on the lives of many US citizens.

Like gay marriage, it's an issue those people, who oppose it, like to get agitated about without realizing that it's just something other people use to lead them by the nose to support right wing candidates and churches and fill their coffers.

 

[Kulindahr]

What Mexico does is relevant: they have a 100% no tolerance for illegal immigration, yet they scream to high heaven when we start to get the least tough with their people sneaking across our border. If for no other reason than to defy their double standard, we should have a 100% no tolerance policy on illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Some here want to oversimplify the situation and make it all a matter of emotion. It isn't just a propaganda issue for the right, it's a matter that should be of concern to all Americans: we are being invaded by people who not only are breaking the law, but who pay dearly for the dubious privilege of doing so. In the process they're fueling organized crime and thus contributing to violence not just here but across the continent. Going easy on people coming across the border is thus, on two fronts, a pro-crime policy.

Those who are already here are a different problem. They're still lawbreakers, but many have already woven themselves into the fabric of their communities. They must be penalized, but avenues have to be provided for them to remain part of the communities they've settled into. But again, that is oversimplifying; many have families, but many -- perhaps more -- are single. Those with families, especially with U.S. citizen children, have to be treated differently.

For my part, I liked the Bush concept of a $5k fine per illegal entrant, though I'd give them ten years to pay it off; meanwhile they'd be on supervision. But for single males, I'd be inclined to offer a choice between stripped of all their property toward payment of their fine, and being summarily dumped in some random place back in their own country, or joining the Army -- where they'd have required classes in English, American history, the Bill of Rights, and so on; if they passed those successfully, then after completing a four-year term of service they'd get their residence card. Oh -- and their fine would come out of their military pay.

I wouldn't make citizenship that easy. It's too easy for those of us born here, already; in general we don't appreciate it or take it seriously. Everyone and anyone who wants to vote, run for office, have a government job, or have a business getting government contracts, ought to have to complete two years of national service, whether military or something else. Those immigrating should have to complete four.

 

[Glafna]

What Mexico does is relevant: they have a 100% no tolerance for illegal immigration, yet they scream to high heaven when we start to get the least tough with their people sneaking across our border. If for no other reason than to defy their double standard, we should have a 100% no tolerance policy on illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Some here want to oversimplify the situation and make it all a matter of emotion. It isn't just a propaganda issue for the right, it's a matter that should be of concern to all Americans: we are being invaded by people who not only are breaking the law, but who pay dearly for the dubious privilege of doing so. In the process they're fueling organized crime and thus contributing to violence not just here but across the continent. Going easy on people coming across the border is thus, on two fronts, a pro-crime policy.

Those who are already here are a different problem. They're still lawbreakers, but many have already woven themselves into the fabric of their communities. They must be penalized, but avenues have to be provided for them to remain part of the communities they've settled into. But again, that is oversimplifying; many have families, but many -- perhaps more -- are single. Those with families, especially with U.S. citizen children, have to be treated differently.

For my part, I liked the Bush concept of a $5k fine per illegal entrant, though I'd give them ten years to pay it off; meanwhile they'd be on supervision. But for single males, I'd be inclined to offer a choice between stripped of all their property toward payment of their fine, and being summarily dumped in some random place back in their own country, or joining the Army -- where they'd have required classes in English, American history, the Bill of Rights, and so on; if they passed those successfully, then after completing a four-year term of service they'd get their residence card. Oh -- and their fine would come out of their military pay.

I wouldn't make citizenship that easy. It's too easy for those of us born here, already; in general we don't appreciate it or take it seriously. Everyone and anyone who wants to vote, run for office, have a government job, or have a business getting government contracts, ought to have to complete two years of national service, whether military or something else. Those immigrating should have to complete four.

Very good post.. And allow me to finish it with a nice little truth that MANY people ignore when it comes to this.

THE PROBLEMS ARE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES!!! FIX THOSE PROBLEMS, FIX MOST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION !!!!!

 

[HenryReardon]

Very good post.. And allow me to finish it with a nice little truth that MANY people ignore when it comes to this.

THE PROBLEMS ARE IN THEIR HOME COUNTRIES!!! FIX THOSE PROBLEMS, FIX MOST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION !!!!!

Since when did it become the responsibility of the US to fix problems in other countries?

Isn't that what the left said about Bush and Iraq?

You can't have it both ways.

 

[HenryReardon]

Those who are already here are a different problem. They're still lawbreakers, but many have already woven themselves into the fabric of their communities. They must be penalized, but avenues have to be provided for them to remain part of the communities they've settled into. But again, that is oversimplifying; many have families, but many -- perhaps more -- are single. Those with families, especially with U.S. citizen children, have to be treated differently.

.

Here, we disagree. I'd still round them up and send them back. Allow them to come back, perhaps, through some sort of legal process, but a point needs to be made.

Think of the economic benefit.

Deport12 million illegals.
Free up millions of jobs. The argument that nobody wants those jobs is bullshit.
Americans that are hungry will take the jobs.
People that are offering the jobs might have to pay a tad more. So what.

In one fell swoop a huge multi-billion dollar burden has been lifted from local, state, and federal government.
If Americans take the jobs, the money earned stays in the country (by most estimates, illegals wire-transfer anywhere from $20 billion to $35 billion annually back S of the border).

It's worth a shot.

 

[Spensed]

^ Leaving aside whether the economic and social impacts nets out as good or bad, the costs and logistics of mass deportation of 12 million people alone, and making sure they don't come back, make the suggestion complete nonsense.

Well, I guess this is a jack off site. LOL.

 

[Glafna]

Since when did it become the responsibility of the US to fix problems in other countries?

Isn't that what the left said about Bush and Iraq?

You can't have it both ways.

Well guess what, Bush and Co weren't trying to fix other countries problems, but trying to abuse them for whatever they could. They went FOR THE OIL!!!!! NOT to find WMD's, nor to remove Suddam from power, but to GET THE OIL!!!!!!

Don't tell me that your denying that......


And as the illegal immigrants are fleeing from the problems, and therefore making problems in the US, Canada, the UK, and wherever else they are fleeing to, I'm pretty sure that they are now our problems to deal with, since apparently the home countries can't fix them their selves.

 

[HenryReardon]

. They went FOR THE OIL!!!!! NOT to find WMD's, nor to remove Suddam from power, but to GET THE OIL!!!!!!


And as the illegal immigrants are fleeing from the problems, and therefore making problems in the US, Canada, the UK, and wherever else they are fleeing to, I'm pretty sure that they are now our problems to deal with, since apparently the home countries can't fix them their selves.

Oh yeah, we got so much oil from Iraq. Good one, that. LOL

Yes, they are our problem, and the problem can be solved by sending them back from whence they came.

 

[naked gent]

Hmmm...and yet we had record oil prices during that time. The oil was put on the market, as I recall, and not sent here carte blanch.

Oh yeah, we got so much oil from Iraq. Good one, that. LOL.

That more oil didn't end up flowing from Iraq after the invasion (indeed less did) is just another example of the miscalculations by Bush & Co. and the fact that the Iraqi's were interested in opening their fields to bids not limited to american concerns indicates they had their own plans which didn't exactly parallel with ours. (and Bush's insistence that this was all about bringing democracy to the Middle East meant that we got zero return on our investment)

The record high oil prices were partially a result of the instability we introduced into the Persian Gulf area by invading Iraq.

Little about the war went as Bush & Co. planned but that hardly proves it was never a major part of the plan. Its cute how you boys use failure as evidence that no plan ever existed.