Poll: Debt ceiling blame game

[Shygui]

Its been this way for as long as votes like this have taken place. When Bush was in office Democrats did exactly the same thing.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...mocrats-switch-sides-amid-hype-hypocrisy.html

Excellent article post.

I think it states it very plainly. The 2 teams switch sides on issues as it suits their overall political needs. It's more about making the other side not score points.

On this particular issue, the country/government as we know it is not sustainable on a tax rate this low. Cutting the budget while increasing the revenue gets us out of debt faster. The republican plan isn't well rounded enough (and seems more designed to make statements like "OBAMA CUT MEDICARE" useable during primaries).

Of course, as most polls have shown, Americans live in a magic bubble where they think the can get services without paying for them (Polls show Americans worrying about debt, but resistance to cutting the entitlement programs or to raising taxes). That doesn't exactly help the issue....

 

[JB3]

compromise requires BOTH sides give something up. The GOP said it wanted 18 percent revenue level and 82 percent cuts, on austerity, and Obama complied. THe current revenue level is 16. Obama cave concessions on everything they asked and in return he asked that loopholes be closed to make up the 2 percent difference.

That 2 percent was a deal breaker for the GOp and now pelosi has her people on this no to the three thing.

The deal was on the table and they turned it down. Boehner is the Arafat of the american Budget. He had 97 percent of what he wanted and he said no JUST for THE PRINCIPLE OF IT.

The GOp holds ONE chamber of the congress, which is ONE branch of three of the federal government, and they insist that they get one hundred percent of their way or they will shut down the entire government.

They even dump their own ideas if Obama says he likes them. McCain voted against an immigration bill that he himself authored. Cap and trade was their dog and pony show until Obama said he liked it. THen it was evil. The lightbulb bill.. it was signed into law by Bush, but since Obama supported the innitiative, they TRIED to reverse it.

To legislate from the house, you have to write a bill that the senate will pass, and the president will sign.

Not only are they completely obstructionists, they are entirely incompetent legislators.

How do you suggest the president and The senate COMPROMISE on something when they have already given them what they want.

And save the raising taxes lie.

It was never on the table. Once again.. for years the GOP championed cleaning up and simplifying the tax code, and the minute Obama suggested they close the loopholes and simplify it to fill the revenue gap, they backed out.

its a farce and anyone that believes it at this point is either gullible or things we are that have to listen to it being spouted off.

Of course. Like Democrats, they're politicians. (or do you not recall democrats holding the capitol hostage in the brief time they were in control under Bush) They will do the opposite of whatever the President asks if they're of the opposing party. That's part of the problem.

 

[T-Rexx]

Then by your measure democrats are just as obstructionist. (and I'm not arguing that the republicans aren't, because they are)

The art of compromise is dead in Washington. Until we elect people that care more about us than they do about their party, its not going to change.

No.

Democrats have agreed to terms extremely unfavorable to their cause, and extremely favorable to Republicans. Giving up most of what you believe in in order to reach a deal is quite the opposite of obstructionism.

Obama has offered the Republicans 85% of what they demand. And yet, that is not enough. The Republicans just aren't willing to take "yes" as an answer.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/obama-moderate-republican/

Obama caved in on the Bush tax cuts. He caved in on the size of the stimulus program. He caved in on a public option for health care. He caved in on offshore drilling and nuclear energy. He caved in on the estate tax. He caved in on the federal employees' wage freeze. He yields and yields and yields and yields. But he has never been offered anything in return.

Democracy is the art of compromise. But Republicans do not understand democracy.

 

[BostonPirate]

Of course. Like Democrats, they're politicians. (or do you not recall democrats holding the capitol hostage in the brief time they were in control under Bush) They will do the opposite of whatever the President asks if they're of the opposing party. That's part of the problem.

actually they did NOT. They filibustered less, they passed quite a bit of legislation in the first week of pelosi's speakership alone, and ended by passing a bipartisan bailout bill with Bush.

When the nation was in an economic emergency at the beginning of this mess as Bush was heading out of the door, The dems met with Bush and in TWO DAYS wrote and PASSED bipartisan legislation to stop the american banking system from collapsing.

The dems did NOT get their tax increase from him then, nor did they insist that it was non negotiable.

The nation had an emergency, and they worked quickly to give the executive branch what it asked for.

DO we even live on the same planet?

 

[Kulindahr]

The Republicans are NOT going to compromise. I'm not sure they can. The party is too dysfunctional at the moment to negotiate.

They will implement the McConnell plan, which will allow Obama to raise the debt ceiling without their party actually agreeing to anything.

Then, they will continue to carry on obstructionist "negotiations" about the budget until the election in 2012. What happens after that will depend on the results of the 2012 election.

That's about the way I see it, too. They're like grade school kids in college politics.

These congress trolls want to cut social security checks and military pay, a to give billionaires and corporations the ability to pay NO taxes.

Why aren't they so willing to give up their own pay when they are willing to give up the pay of everyones grandparents and sons who are in harms way defending the nation is nothing less than a party wide character flaw. It reflects that they care about little but their corporate owners and their own pockets.

put THEM where they are putting 700,000 social security recipients and I will bet you one hundred bucks they would find a way to start legislating.

what a foolish question, and a total deflection because you actually have NO real answer or justification for these peoples behavior.

And to be clear...

Cut them ALL

BOTH PARTIES

Simple law: when the least federal employee is laid off or receiving no pay due to congressional failure to permit paychecks, neither members of Congress nor their staff shall receive wages, salaries, or benefits.

Mr and Mrs Rich do not need a 3rd boat and an 8th house. How about eliminating tax breaks for the disgustingly wealthy.

Limit them to the dozen most commonly taken . . .


by the poor.


But also pass a Upper Bracket Minimum Rate of 15%, so no matter what deductions and credits they get, they still have to pay 15%.

And raise the individual exemption to the poverty level.

 

[JB3]

actually they did NOT. They filibustered less, they passed quite a bit of legislation in the first week of pelosi's speakership alone, and ended by passing a bipartisan bailout bill with Bush.

When the nation was in an economic emergency at the beginning of this mess as Bush was heading out of the door, The dems met with Bush and in TWO DAYS wrote and PASSED bipartisan legislation to stop the american banking system from collapsing.

The dems did NOT get their tax increase from him then, nor did they insist that it was non negotiable.

The nation had an emergency, and they worked quickly to give the executive branch what it asked for.

DO we even live on the same planet?

Less is relative BP. They still filibustered more than any minority party in history until now. They still did their best to block raising the debt ceiling multiple times. They still pulled every parliamentary trick possible to block anything and everything.

While you might not ever be up to admitting it, both parties support and block things based on who's sitting in the big chair in the white house. Its inexcusable, and its the reason why we're in the situation we are.

 

[evanrick]

Obama should just come out and say we are not raising the debt ceiling, but also the Pentagon is being de-funded and im firing all the people there. Balanced budget.

 

[JB3]

Anyone see Tom Coburn's plan? Its actually a pretty damn good plan, even if it would be painful.

-$1 trillion recovered by cleaning up the tax code
-$1 trillion cuts in defense, including a complete restructuring of Vet healthcare that would reevaluate vets being covered by injuries not caused by their service
-Retirement age increasing by a month every other year starting in 2022
-Reformulation of benefits based on income, and other adjustments
-Overhaul of disability insurance

Overall savings and reduction of the debt: $9 trillion over 10 years.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59300.html

 

[JB3]

Obama should just come out and say we are not raising the debt ceiling, but also the Pentagon is being de-funded and im firing all the people there. Balanced budget.

Can't. Unless he wants to get impeached for violating federal law and the separation of powers.

 

[BostonPirate]

Less is relative BP. They still filibustered more than any minority party in history until now. They still did their best to block raising the debt ceiling multiple times. They still pulled every parliamentary trick possible to block anything and everything.

While you might not ever be up to admitting it, both parties support and block things based on who's sitting in the big chair in the white house. Its inexcusable, and its the reason why we're in the situation we are.

what did bush want that he did not get?

Tell me. EXPLAIN.

 

[JB3]

what did bush want that he did not get?

Tell me. EXPLAIN.

What has Obama wanted that he hasn't gotten?

 

[BostonPirate]

What has Obama wanted that he hasn't gotten?

that is an evasion.

Tell me what Bush wanted, that the Dems stopped him from getting.

Give me the list.

 

[JB3]

that is an evasion.

Tell me what Bush wanted, that the Dems stopped him from getting.

Give me the list.

Its not an evasion. It was a point. Obama has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for. Maybe not in full for all of the initiatives, but everything of substance he has pursued he has gotten past congress.

Oh, and perhaps the two biggest are the most sorely needed: comprehensive immigration reform and social security reform.

 

[BostonPirate]

Its not an evasion. It was a point. Obama has gotten EVERYTHING he has asked for. Maybe not in full for all of the initiatives, but everything of substance he has pursued he has gotten past congress.

Oh, and perhaps the two biggest are the most sorely needed: comprehensive immigration reform and social security reform.

no

your assertion is that both sides have done it in the last two congresses. We are all aware of what the GOP is doing currently, and this forum is currently littered with examples of their obstructions.

Now YOU said that the dems did it to bush, I cannot think of anything that he did not want that he did not simply take through signing exec orders.

Now you tell me what the dems stopped him from achieving that he wanted to achieve. Tell me also what you would say if OBAMA just signed the debt ceiling away with a signing order while you're at it.

Its clear you wont answer because you cant.

 

[JayHawk]

So you all argue for hours at ends about the debt ceiling and when a substantial occurance happens you refuse to acknowledge it because your too wrapped up in petty points? Jeesh and we wonder what is the matter with congress.

The Gang of Six, a bipartisan group of senators co-led by Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., and Sen. Mark Warner, D-Va., worked behind the scenes for nearly six months to come up with a budget compromise.
In recent days, the group finalized a plan to cut roughly $3.7 trillion from the budget over the next decade. Members would trim domestic spending in such areas as defense and farm subsidies, would reform entitlement programs such as Medicare and Social Security and would increase tax revenues by $1 trillion by closing tax loopholes while eliminating the controversial alternative minimum tax.


Read more: http://www.theolympian.com/2011/07/19/1729972/gang-of-six-has-an-idea-to-fix.html#ixzz1SeGN1fym

It is BI-Partisan from some the well established members of both parties.

Kina funny to me... Now if they would just shit out some details..... The NPR report I listened to yesterday indicated that republican senator (I forget the name) from the gang of six suggested it will receive up to 70 votes in the senate making it filibuster proof.

That would also squarely place the onus of any economic damage not passing it onto the House and their leadership. IF they were to block passage. Sounds good to me.

“The problem we have now is we're in the 11th hour, and we don't have a lot more time left,” Obama said. “The good news is that today a group of senators, the Gang of Six, Democrats and Republicans… put forward a proposal that is broadly consistent with the approach that I've urged.”

Read more: http://www.theolympian.com/2011/07/19/1729972/gang-of-six-has-an-idea-to-fix.html#ixzz1SeGgoncD

 

[BostonPirate]

been talking about the gang of six here for months.. most people weren't interested so I shut up.

there are old threads back there somewhere so go have a read of them.

Actually... the tea party caucus of the GOP have threatened the GOP... don't let the Coburn or Gang plan pass and get signed into law or They will run opposition candidates in primaries against you.They are already killing Hatch from within, and are going to create a give away senate seat to the dems... So the GOP is not going to be going for this plan, IMO.

THey would have to ditch the tea pary and caucus with the blue Dog dems instead. Not likely in this partisan environment with the GOP primary rolling. ITs all about party purity and the extremists are winning the arguememt.

I have been reading reports of thei gang of six, and because their bill is based on the presidents sellect committee...the bipartizan committee to plan a roadmap to reduce the deficit... it has always been known what the general plan is.

the president and his bipartizan committee, in cooperation with the bipartisan gang, lets say, because they are no longer six.. I think one of them Dropped out, coburn, and they picked up two to replace him.

So look at coburns plan as well. He released his plan one day ahead of theirs to make sure his concerns and reasons for leaving the gang would be part of the dialogue in the end game. They mirror each other I think, and while the coburn plan has the same tax code overhaul scheme, his plan is a tad more to the right than what the gang has produced. I am guessing its window dressing changes, like how much defense gets cut versus social security.

The plans include tax code overhaul. it means they ditch the entire thing and rewrite it. interesting and simple solution. You get rid of all tax deductions except personal, dependents, home and education, and then lower the entire thing by five to ten percent. It gives us an accurate picture of who pays what, it reduces the IRS workload so effectively that it can cut them in half in expenses, and it raises a trillion by snagging the tax dodgers at the top.

The austerity measures include social security and medicare, so they are not timid on that one.

real work has been going on for months as all the accusations have flown that nothing was in the works. it saw all bullshit. people are just more interested in obstruction right now than common sense.

you finally shook off the GOP fairy dust out your ears Jayhawk?

COOL

 

[JayHawk]

I never had fairy dust in my head... I had a few tinker bells grace my bed but that is a different story. I still believe the same things, NO CHANGE. Well no significant changes... I have altered my views slightly based off of some of the points offered here by various members. Hell that is the reason I come here. I am just sick of the way hard left or way hard right folks. If your only mission is to destroy anything associated with the other party then this is a football game and not peoples lives. And yes you may freely admit that there are voices on the left and voice on the right that are consumed with mission that and that alone because they happen to believe their way is best. Fortunately we get a amalgamation of beliefs in america.


I have stated multiple times in this forum that the whacked out crazies on either side need to STFU and step up to the negotiating table. That is progress.

I don't read this place religiously so I didn't catch the previous Gang of Six comments. However it seems amazingly germane at this last moment in the talks.

I will look at the Colburn plan. If it truly involves tax code overhaul that is as you describe... then my faith in a the american government will be bolstered.

 

[JB3]

been talking about the gang of six here for months.. most people weren't interested so I shut up.

there are old threads back there somewhere so go have a read of them.

Actually... the tea party caucus of the GOP have threatened the GOP... don't let the Coburn or Gang plan pass and get signed into law or They will run opposition candidates in primaries against you.They are already killing Hatch from within, and are going to create a give away senate seat to the dems... So the GOP is not going to be going for this plan, IMO.

THey would have to ditch the tea pary and caucus with the blue Dog dems instead. Not likely in this partisan environment with the GOP primary rolling. ITs all about party purity and the extremists are winning the arguememt.

I have been reading reports of thei gang of six, and because their bill is based on the presidents sellect committee...the bipartizan committee to plan a roadmap to reduce the deficit... it has always been known what the general plan is.

the president and his bipartizan committee, in cooperation with the bipartisan gang, lets say, because they are no longer six.. I think one of them Dropped out, coburn, and they picked up two to replace him.

So look at coburns plan as well. He released his plan one day ahead of theirs to make sure his concerns and reasons for leaving the gang would be part of the dialogue in the end game. They mirror each other I think, and while the coburn plan has the same tax code overhaul scheme, his plan is a tad more to the right than what the gang has produced. I am guessing its window dressing changes, like how much defense gets cut versus social security.

The plans include tax code overhaul. it means they ditch the entire thing and rewrite it. interesting and simple solution. You get rid of all tax deductions except personal, dependents, home and education, and then lower the entire thing by five to ten percent. It gives us an accurate picture of who pays what, it reduces the IRS workload so effectively that it can cut them in half in expenses, and it raises a trillion by snagging the tax dodgers at the top.

The austerity measures include social security and medicare, so they are not timid on that one.

real work has been going on for months as all the accusations have flown that nothing was in the works. it saw all bullshit. people are just more interested in obstruction right now than common sense.

you finally shook off the GOP fairy dust out your ears Jayhawk?

COOL

The Coburn plan is actually quite good. The fact that it pisses off everyone because of the depth and breadth of changes speaks volumes about how much it actually does.

 

[BostonPirate]

I never had fairy dust in my head... I had a few tinker bells grace my bed but that is a different story. I still believe the same things, NO CHANGE. Well no significant changes... I have altered my views slightly based off of some of the points offered here by various members. Hell that is the reason I come here. I am just sick of the way hard left or way hard right folks. If your only mission is to destroy anything associated with the other party then this is a football game and not peoples lives. And yes you may freely admit that there are voices on the left and voice on the right that are consumed with mission that and that alone because they happen to believe their way is best. Fortunately we get a amalgamation of beliefs in america.


I have stated multiple times in this forum that the whacked out crazies on either side need to STFU and step up to the negotiating table. That is progress.

I don't read this place religiously so I didn't catch the previous Gang of Six comments. However it seems amazingly germane at this last moment in the talks.

I will look at the Colburn plan. If it truly involves tax code overhaul that is as you describe... then my faith in a the american government will be bolstered.

jayhawk, I like you, kiddo.

But you ARE a partisan in soo many ways.

 

[JayHawk]

No I believe what I believe and stand by that.
Feel free in private (since this is way off topic) to tell me the party I can support that believes in taxes for what we spend, the war in Irq and Afghanistan, Gay rights, unlimited gun ownership, Immigration amnesty, women's choice (although I hate the concept I have no right to tell her not to kill), Flat tax code, infrastructure rebuilding thru federal supported workforce, Military power, diplomacy with war as the final act of diplomacy, conservation and alternative energy, national parks and land mgt areas, strength in international relations.....

I could go on... I split damn near straight down the middle. I think both parties suck shit thru straws.