On-Topic Pope Compares Capitalism to Terrorism and Criminality

[palemale]

While there are many things with which I disagree with the Pope and Catholic Church doctrine, he was on the money with his critique of capitalism. In his New Year's Day homily, he compared unregulated capitalism to terrorism and criminality. He said the following:

the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated capitalism, various forms of terrorism and criminality.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/01/pope-slams-capitalism-ine_n_2392653.html

 

[palemale]

I think he dislikes capitalism more than gay or straight sex.

 

[Kulindahr]

I think he dislikes capitalism more than gay or straight sex.

LOL

I doubt it -- capitalism which behaves itself (as he would see it) is fine, but there's nothing about gay sex that will make it (as he would see it) fine.

 

[palemale]

The interesting thing is what the right-wing, especially Catholic, nuts who love what the church teaches about abortion, homosexuality and contraception will have to say about this. Rick Santorum, are you listening?

 

[Rolyo85]

the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated capitalism, various forms of terrorism and criminality.

...said Sidious, sitting on his golden throne, wearing his big golden hat...

 

[xbuzzerx]

The interesting thing is what the right-wing, especially Catholic, nuts who love what the church teaches about abortion, homosexuality and contraception will have to say about this. Rick Santorum, are you listening?

Whenever anyone (Pope or not) points out the social welfare ramifications of what Christian teachings should tell people, American Christians have a fantastic ability to just sorta selectively go deaf.

 

[Stardreamer]

the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated capitalism, various forms of terrorism and criminality.

The focus in this sentence seems to be 'a selfish and individualistic mindset' (I would read that as selfishness and disregard of others) which can find expression in 'unregulated capitalism'. He is condemning individuals here who through their self centered viewpoints bring about evil. The list at the end is more pointing out how that evil is expressed. I don't think he intended to equate capitalism with terrorism, just that evil can be done by the wrong types of individuals by the use of 'unregulated capitalism'. I sort of get the impression this Pope does not think out clearly what he is trying to say sometimes or it could just be translation issues. In this though he is quite right. Real capitalists do not want unregulated capitalism, they understand the need for some regulation to maintain a balanced playing field in a truly free market. The selfish and individualistic does not want others to be able to compete fairly with him.

 

[Kulindahr]

That's why he lives in his own city state, dresses in gold and owns his own bank.

Actually the Pope doesn't even own the expensive clothes he wears.

 

[Kulindahr]

Whenever anyone (Pope or not) points out the social welfare ramifications of what Christian teachings should tell people, American Christians have a fantastic ability to just sorta selectively go deaf.

It's always seemed weird to me that the people who really get Jesus on social matters are the ones who generally don't really worry about doctrinal matters, while those who are careful about doctrine are really sad when it comes to compassion.

 

[Kulindahr]

The focus in this sentence seems to be 'a selfish and individualistic mindset' (I would read that as selfishness and disregard of others) which can find expression in 'unregulated capitalism'. He is condemning individuals here who through their self centered viewpoints bring about evil. The list at the end is more pointing out how that evil is expressed. I don't think he intended to equate capitalism with terrorism, just that evil can be done by the wrong types of individuals by the use of 'unregulated capitalism'. I sort of get the impression this Pope does not think out clearly what he is trying to say sometimes or it could just be translation issues. In this though he is quite right. Real capitalists do not want unregulated capitalism, they understand the need for some regulation to maintain a balanced playing field in a truly free market. The selfish and individualistic does not want others to be able to compete fairly with him.

So he's condemning Romney and the bankers?

 

[Rolyo85]

Actually the Pope doesn't even own the expensive clothes he wears.

Is that really relevant, when he can command the use of all the Vatican riches until he dies?

 

[xbuzzerx]

It's always seemed weird to me that the people who really get Jesus on social matters are the ones who generally don't really worry about doctrinal matters, while those who are careful about doctrine are really sad when it comes to compassion.

I chaulk it up to people who can only understand things through an authoritarian mindset vs. people who are more flexible and can understand the spirit hidden within the letter of something. I'm amazed at the public, vocal effort organized churches in the U.S. give to things like gay marriage when we have huge numbers of people in prison for nonviolent offenses and expectant mothers on WIC food. It really seems to come down to people who view it as "follow rules" vs. "change how you live and look at people." The most loud Christians are never the 2nd type. And they're even laughably rarely good at being the first type.

 

[Kulindahr]

Is that really relevant, when he can command the use of all the Vatican riches until he dies?

He can't really. Popes have tried before, only to find that the Vatican bureaucracy is very good at stalling, "misunderstanding", and downright ignoring him. Also, since the Vatican bank troubles/scandals a while back, direct control of the wealth was taken away from the priest types and given to a professional board, to get it away from factional interests and stupid decisions.

That wealth is actually their income source for running the place and the worldwide reach of diplomacy the Vatican runs. It also helps support dioceses when there are disasters.

Of course what that wealth -- most in stocks (they hold enough they could crash the Italian economy), and a huge amount in works of art -- is actually worth ranges in estimates from several hundred million to a couple of hundred billion; most commonly it's considered to be somewhere between ten and twenty-five billion.

 

[Kulindahr]

I chaulk it up to people who can only understand things through an authoritarian mindset vs. people who are more flexible and can understand the spirit hidden within the letter of something. I'm amazed at the public, vocal effort organized churches in the U.S. give to things like gay marriage when we have huge numbers of people in prison for nonviolent offenses and expectant mothers on WIC food. It really seems to come down to people who view it as "follow rules" vs. "change how you live and look at people." The most loud Christians are never the 2nd type. And they're even laughably rarely good at being the first type.

Fairly good view. I've yet to meet an 'evangelical' who can see how the Apostle Paul is drawing principles from the Old Testament which actually rise above the ethics of particulars embodied in the Mosaic code. They totally fail to see the point when Jesus tosses aside some Old Testament law with the comment, "One greater than the Temple is here", and how He wipes the slate of that law in the Sermon on the Mount.

It's awareness of that view which finally led Christians to realize that the Bible is against slavery, for the simple reason that if Jesus died for all, then all are equal in value (besides the Old Testament principle that all are in God's image, which means that slavery is in fact a form of blasphemy). It's the same awareness which has led many Christians, and more than a few denominations, to see that whatever the Old Testament priestly passages might say about male-make sex those are now irrelevant, because if the principle which overturned slavery is valid for owning people, it must also be valid for loving people.

Jesus said once that in later days many will call on His name, but described them with the phrase "their love had grown cold". To me that sums up most of 'evangelical' Christianity as well as the Roman Catholic church.

 

[T-Rexx]

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

-Matthew 19:24

 

[Kulindahr]

Rolyo85 is right: A lifetime lease is a distinction without a difference.

No, because the Pope doesn't command all those riches.

Which is probably a good thing.

 

[JayHawk]

I find it remarkable that Christians whether they be Catholic or not can willy nilly chose what things from the bible to place emphasis on and what to not place emphasis on.... kind of disturbing when you consider it.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I find it remarkable that Christians whether they be Catholic or not can willy nilly chose what things from the bible to place emphasis on and what to not place emphasis on.... kind of disturbing when you consider it.

God obviously didn't mean all the hippy stuff.

 

[Kulindahr]

I find it remarkable that Christians whether they be Catholic or not can willy nilly chose what things from the bible to place emphasis on and what to not place emphasis on.... kind of disturbing when you consider it.

It's actually fairly simple, theologically: There are two kinds of messages in the Bible, Law and Gospel. Law is something most humans like, because it tells them what's right and wrong, and doesn't require them to think deeply about moral decisions. The thing is, there is a great deal of Law in the Bible, enough that no one could possibly follow it all. So what people who like Law do is to settle on a part that resonates with them, and without realizing their error they hold it above everything else and make it the judge of all things. But the Gospel involves principles, and with its theme of loving all people demands that we think, learn, assess, consider, analyze, ponder, decide, and choose.

Those who actually focus on the Gospel mostly don't have the problem of picking and choosing -- those who love Law, do.

 

[Kulindahr]

Nevertheless, his is the hand that dispenses those trappings representing that which all riches do. Power.

To a fair extent, yes. But if those parts of the world where he isn't considered the last authority in the Roman Church, where people think for themselves, were to be honest and cut loose from him, his power would shrink immensely overnight.

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God obviously didn't mean all the hippy stuff.

Hippy stuff"?