Pope declares boy's recovery a miracle...how can anyone buy into this nonsense?

[FirmaFan]

The 11-year-old Ferndale, Wash., boy’s stunning recovery from the flesh-eating bacteria that chewed up his face and nearly killed him in 2006 has been officially deemed by the Vatican as a miracle attributable to Kateri Tekakwitha, a 17th-century American Indian woman who converted to Catholicism at a young age.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-his-familly-and-the-pope?chromedomain=vitals

Now, looking at the images of this boy during his ordeal, "miracle" is not the thing that comes to my mind. "Extremely tragic" seems more appropriate. A vicious strain of bacteria decimated this poor boy's face, nearly killing him, and left him disfigured, probably for life. If this is the kind of actions that are to be deemed "miracles", the divine being's charitable motives are highly suspect. If some presence really was looking out for this boy, why allow him to be horribly maimed before assisting?

According to the pope, the survival of this boy was all thanks to "Kateri Tekakwitha", instead of, say, the doctors that worked extensively on him or the advancements in medicine and medical equipment that allowed them to save his life. It turns out that all that life support equipment shown in the pictures is actually just the hands of a 17th century native-American catholic keeping the boy alive.

My biggest question is this: by what mechanism did the pope determine that it was Kateri Tekakwitha that was responsible for this boy's recovery? Why not any of the other thousands of so-called saints? Did he just want to spice things up by making it a native-American? Moreover, how horrible a person do you have to be to take a boy's pain and suffering and use it to further your own religious agenda? Unfortunately, the parents are so caught up in the religious belief themselves, they are entirely unable to recognize how they too are victims of the exploit.

No matter how far we have come in scientific advances, no matter how much knowledge has been gained, or how many people have dedicated their lives to bettering the human race though learning, allowing for advances in medicine, technology, and overall scientific prowess that allow for things like saving the life of a child from an otherwise deadly disease, there are those who still cling to myths, legends, and utter falsehoods unsupported by any rational justification and credit those falsehoods above all others as the true reason behind all the things that science and rational thought have given us.

 

[kallipolis]

I believe these paragraphs are much more pertinent to the question being posed:

After numerous surgeries to remove his damaged flesh, Jake suddenly and unexpectedly took a turn for the better on the ninth day of his hospitalization, Sauer recalls. That was the same day that a relic of Tekakwitha was brought to the hospital from the national office of the Tekakwitha Conference, a Catholic Native American religious organization, in Great Falls, Mont.

The relic was placed on a pillow next to Jake’s head. “On that day his vital signs began to make an unaccountable improvement,” Sauer says.

Vatican investigators would later interview hospital officials about Jake’s case, and the doctors said “they did not have any clear medical explanation for why his condition turned around on that day,” Sauer says.



Cause, and effect?

 

[TX-Beau]

Only if everyone else that ever got near whatever that is, of whatever faith, was cured of whatever ailed them (however serious.) Or hell, even most. So if it's cause and effect, wherever it's housed must be completely disease free. Else-wise no cause and effect, just you insisting on magical fantasy.

How many people have sat down next to the thing and died anyway do ya think?

 

[kallipolis]

Only if everyone else that ever got near whatever that is, of whatever faith, was cured of whatever ailed them (however serious.) Or hell, even most. So if it's cause and effect, wherever it's housed must be completely disease free. Else-wise no cause and effect, just you insisting on magical fantasy.

How many people have sat down next to the thing and died anyway do ya think?

Miracles do not conform to the scientific standard of research rather are a stand alone inexplicable phenomenon that leaves the medical fraternity scratching their heads.

The question always arises why are just a few people cured by miraculous intervention, and not the many? May be one day we will know the answer.

 

[FirmaFan]

I believe these paragraphs are much more pertinent to the question being posed:

After numerous surgeries to remove his damaged flesh, Jake suddenly and unexpectedly took a turn for the better on the ninth day of his hospitalization, Sauer recalls. That was the same day that a relic of Tekakwitha was brought to the hospital from the national office of the Tekakwitha Conference, a Catholic Native American religious organization, in Great Falls, Mont.

The relic was placed on a pillow next to Jake’s head. “On that day his vital signs began to make an unaccountable improvement,” Sauer says.

Vatican investigators would later interview hospital officials about Jake’s case, and the doctors said “they did not have any clear medical explanation for why his condition turned around on that day,” Sauer says.



Cause, and effect?

Cause and effect? Correlation does not equal causation. Especially since the boy spent a further 8 weeks in the hospital AFTER said miracle is to have occurred before he was released.

Miracles do not conform to the scientific standard of research rather are a stand alone inexplicable phenomenon that leaves the medical fraternity scratching their heads.

If miracles do not conform to standards of research, you really have no basis for claiming "miracle" in the first place, instead, miracle claims are simply being spun out of whole-cloth, and there is nothing beyond to verify a miracle has actually occurred.

Oh, and phenomena that "leaves the medical fraternity scratching their heads" does not mean there isn't an explanation, it just means that explanation is not known - although I believe it has something to do with 9 weeks of intense hospitalization. If some crazy old man in a silly white hat then comes along and says "miracle attributed to Kateri Tekakwitha", then people become falsely convinced that an answer has been provided, eliminating any motivation to discover the actual cause of this boy's recovery. Imagine what this world would be if we still were satisfied with "miracle" as an explanation. The sun rising would still be a miracle, and we would never know about gravity and planetary motion, equations for which allowed humans to travel to the moon. I am extremely grateful that people were not satisfied with an explanation of "miracle" when it was seen that those who contracted small pox but did not die were never at risk for getting it again, thus leading to the development of vaccine technology. I am extremely grateful that people were not satisfied with an explanation of "miracle" when it was seen that bread mold inhibited bacterial growth, leading to the discovery of penicillin and the development of antibiotics. But I am extremely frightened about what may have been discovered but was not because people became convinced by religious beliefs that "miracle" is an adequate explanation for observed phenomena.

 

[kallipolis]

^We need to determine the definition of a miracle.

The incidence of chance would suggest that the relic might well have contributed something to the child's recovery when noting that the recovery process began on the day the relic was placed next to the patient.

Chance? Coincidence? No one can tell for certain.

I am just happy the child is on the road to recovery.

The relic might well be used again to assist another sick person.

 

[TX-Beau]

...Miracles do not conform to the scientific standard of research...

LOL. Why then are you trying to imply causation? That tosses your argument at the very feet of science. A fundamental hypocrisy in most religious arguments, use science and its lexicon where it suits you then protest piously "WE CANNOT KNOW! " when you get called on it.

Please.

 

[TX-Beau]

Faith in God, and the intercessions of the Saints in Heaven Rules the roost! Praise be God, and his saints!

PRAISE THE JEEBUS!!

 

[kallipolis]

LOL. Why then are you trying to imply causation? That tosses your argument at the very feet of science. A fundamental hypocrisy in most religious arguments, use science and its lexicon where it suits you then protest piously "WE CANNOT KNOW! " when you get called on it.

Please.

What has cause, and effect to do with scientific standards of research?

I am discussing causation, and its result; not scientific testing of a result.

I will refresh your memory of what I have written:

Miracles do not conform to the scientific standard of research rather are a stand alone inexplicable phenomenon that leaves the medical fraternity scratching their heads.

 

[TX-Beau]

Oh please. That's just more dance the dance of obfuscation avoiding the central point.

 

[TX-Beau]

Though I suppose that considering the way you'ge attempted to apply causation it's possible you have no idea what that term implies.

 

[kallipolis]

Oh please. That's just more dance the dance of obfuscation avoiding the central point.

You confuse your self and then point the finger in my direction!

It's the Christmas season of good will thus I shall remain kind, and generous.

 

[kallipolis]

Though I suppose that considering the way you'ge attempted to apply causation it's possible you have no idea what that term implies.

I note that you are now personalising and avoiding the topic.

 

[TX-Beau]

That goes straight into the whatever bin.

Why bring up causation at all? Hmmm? Why not just say "..miracles don't conform to science..."

Because you were trying to imply legitimacy to your magical supposotion using the lexicon of legitimate inquiy that's why. Then you got called on it and ran right back to"..but it can't be known by science..."

Well if that's the case, it's obviously NOT causation since no one knows what miracles happen to whom, in proximity to whatever, with varied result, for unknowable reason, with no consistency.

Mickey was far more honest.

 

[kallipolis]

The relic is the cause, and the recovery of the patient is the effect. It's that simple.

Miraculous cures are not provable by scientific evaluation. It's that simple.

Either we accept that the relic was the cause of the cure or, we accept that we don't know the cause of the cure.

The choice is ours to make.

I've made my choice - and you've made your choice.

 

[TX-Beau]

The relic is the cause, and the recovery of the patient is the effect. It's that simple.

Miraculous cures are not provable by scientific evaluation. It's that simple.

Either we accept that the relic was the cause of the cure or, we accept that we don't know the cause of the cure.

The choice is ours to make.

I've made my choice - and you've made your choice.

Oh come on, you’ve made up your mind. I’ve said nothing about why or how the kid recovered. I took issue with you.

If you can’t document causation, you don’t have cause and effect. You have wishful thinking and effect.

 

[kallipolis]

I quote from the captioned article:

The relic was placed on a pillow next to Jake’s head. “On that day his vital signs began to make an unaccountable improvement,” Sauer says.

Cause: the relic placed on the patient's pillow.

Effect: on the same day the patient's vital signs begin to make an unaccountable improvement .

Disprove the effect that the cause - the relic - had on the patient's recovery.

 

[TX-Beau]

Genius - if you can't prove causation, you don't have cause and effect. You have supposition and unexplained.

If the relic was so efficacious why didn't they drag it all over the hospital, all over the nation, CURE DISEASE EVERYWHERE.

How frikkin greedy and mean is your god - just the one?

Please.

 

[Seasoned]

It's time for a Native American saint regardless of one's beliefs. And if it gives the boy solace having a disfigured hero on his side as he adjusts to being disfigured himself who would want to stand in his way?

 

[TX-Beau]

No offence but that is just not the point.