Post-Osama: what comes next?

[White Eagle]

I'm sitting here playing a game and listening to Lawrence Odonnel and the Last Word on MSNBC, of course.
Anyway He reports that Obama has invited Bush to meet with him at Ground Zero and Bush has declined.

 

[BostonPirate]

Religion has no place in politics.
A fine or jail will apply if they get involve in politics. Full stop.

thats already a law in America

we call it separation of chuirch and state

 

[White Eagle]

Religion has no place in politics.
A fine or jail will apply if they get involve in politics. Full stop.

Bravo!!!

 

[Kulindahr]

There is an outside possibility of a negotiated political settlement in Afghanistan as a result of this event.
I'm being optimistic!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/02/bin-laden-war-terrorism-afghanistan-us

Yeah -- like any Western nation is going to have "extraordinary restraint"....

Religion has no place in politics.
A fine or jail will apply if they get involve in politics. Full stop.

What -- only atheists get a say? Ridiculous.

 

[Telstra]

Yeah -- like any Western nation is going to have "extraordinary restraint"....



What -- only atheists get a say? Ridiculous.

umm policies base on religion is stupid.

GDP is up by 2% praise the lord (is stupid)
We will cut taxes thank god and bless ( is stupid)

 

[bankside]

What -- only atheists get a say? Ridiculous.

Your statement is ridiculous. Secular government and the separation of church and state are not about imposing atheism, they're about governing based on what people share in common other than religious views, for the purpose of preserving freedom and not creating religious impositions on others.

 

[T-Rexx]

Just learned the SEALs came back with whole piles of computer stuff full of data.

If the terrorists used Ubuntu, they could have encrypted all the hard drives at installation. It's super easy to do, free, and foolproof. Not even the CIA would be able to break it.

Let's hope Bin Laden is a Windows guy.

 

[Kulindahr]

umm policies base on religion is stupid.

GDP is up by 2% praise the lord (is stupid)
We will cut taxes thank god and bless ( is stupid)

We should feed the poor, like Jesus did.

We should shelter the homeless, as the apostle commanded.


Are those stupid, too?

 

[Kulindahr]

Your statement is ridiculous. Secular government and the separation of church and state are not about imposing atheism, they're about governing based on what people share in common other than religious views, for the purpose of preserving freedom and not creating religious impositions on others.

Of course the statement's ridiculous -- but I'm not the one who said it.

 

[Telstra]

We should feed the poor, [STRIKE]like Jesus did.[/STRIKE]

We should shelter the homeless, [STRIKE]as the apostle commanded.[/STRIKE]


Are those stupid, too?

Everyone should fee the poor and shelter the homeless without thank god because god did it.

If you thank god and said god did it, we need proof !!!

 

[Kulindahr]

Everyone should fee the poor and shelter the homeless without thank god because god did it.

If you thank god and said god did it, we need proof !!!

You changed the subject.

You said that statements that are religious are stupid. I gave you two religious statements to consider.

Are they stupid, too?

 

[rareboy]

Your statement is ridiculous. Secular government and the separation of church and state are not about imposing atheism, they're about governing based on what people share in common other than religious views, for the purpose of preserving freedom and not creating religious impositions on others.

This.

There is a big difference here.

 

[JayHawk]

We should feed the poor, like Jesus did.

We should shelter the homeless, as the apostle commanded.


Are those stupid, too?

You see the problem with Christians is they are not like their Christ.

Best quote ever even if i paraphrased it.

 

[bankside]

Of course the statement's ridiculous -- but I'm not the one who said it.

Kulindahr, your statement was intended to lampoon the position of your interlocutor, but in so doing you mischaracterised his, somewhat inelegantly-stated, position. You are thus only arguing with yourself, against a position of your own construction. That, is ridiculous.

A position endorsed by religion may make good public policy. A position based in religion, with no substantive, non-religious grounds, is not acceptable. Telstra quiche rightly edits your two examples; the compassionate behaviour they engender requires no divine mandate to implement.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kulindahr, your statement was intended to lampoon the position of your interlocutor, but in so doing you mischaracterised his, somewhat inelegantly-stated, position. You are thus only arguing with yourself, against a position of your own construction. That, is ridiculous.

A position endorsed by religion may make good public policy. A position based in religion, with no substantive, non-religious grounds, is not acceptable. Telstra quiche rightly edits your two examples; the compassionate behaviour they engender requires no divine mandate to implement.

So he invalidates his own position: statements from religion are not necessarily stupid.

 

[Telstra]

So he invalidates his own position: statements from religion are not necessarily stupid.

Every decisions made in politics,
no politicians had asked what do god want ...

Why mix it to waste people's time. All the decisions made were based on reason.

 

[bankside]

So he invalidates his own position: statements from religion are not necessarily stupid.

That depends on what your definition of "from" is.

I was quite specific in my choice of words; a position endorsed by religion is not the same as a position from religion.

Statements found only in religion are not an acceptable base for public policy.

 

[EwanSF]

That depends on what your definition of "from" is.

I was quite specific in my choice of words; a position endorsed by religion is not the same as a position from religion.

Statements found only in religion are not an acceptable base for public policy.

Halelujah.

 

[BostonPirate]

the american founders that wrote the separation of church and state were really very schizophrenic on this topic as they worked out the way it would eventually be written.

In the end they wanted a nation that CHOSE to act morally, not a nation forced to live by a predetermined set of values by an institutionalized national religion.

In the late 17 hundreds, Morality was mostly expressed through religion.

I think they wanted people to make just and virtuous choices, but they wanted the individual to have the freedom to define what that meant.


Benjamin Franklin

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." --- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." --- Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

Thomas Jefferson

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests." --- Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1803

George Washington

Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? ~~ George Washington

 

[rareboy]

That depends on what your definition of "from" is.

I was quite specific in my choice of words; a position endorsed by religion is not the same as a position from religion.

Statements found only in religion are not an acceptable base for public policy.

Well stated...