On Topic Discussion Pride and prejudice? Race tinges LGBT celebrations

[TickTockMan]

well some might consider their effort a success. it got people talking, for better or worse. more people are aware than before they pulled this stunt.

i dunno what they taught you in school but when women wanted to vote, when blacks wanted to sit in the same restaurants, they didn't achieve this by being polite and quiet. you all keep saying good message bad delivery but historically it has always taken some bad-ass rock the boat make people uncomfortable type shit to get the ball rolling because otherwise you all just cover your ears and pretend nothing's happening. people, of any walk of life, divide themselves into little bubbles based on who looks like them and thinks the same, ironically in the social media age it seems people are trying harder than ever to insulate themselves from anyone from a different demographic.

to be frank i've only ever really seen white gay america acknowledge black men in porn, i've got pictures on my hard drive of latin people supporting BLM, middle eastern people supporting BLM, asian people supporting BLM, but white people by and large seem to be completely uninterested if not outright challenging BLM. i would die a happy man if i saw one event hosted by LGBT where this callous and wanton disregard for human life was expressed as a concern. the lack of it doesn't speak well for our humanity, at all.

Yes. I agree with you 100%, but they didn't do it to allies. They made those indifferent or against them uncomfortable. You have to treat allies in a different softer way or you will lose them as either allies or they will stop being indifferent and go against you. Assholish or not that is how people are.

 

[zoltanspawn]

i'm from chicago and as gay black man living in the bible belt, very little disappoints or surprises me. the goal isn't effective communication, it's for police to stop shooting us. if someone is more concerned with how the message is conveyed than the lives that are being lost almost daily then we really don't need their help anyway. either you get it or you don't, either you're on board or you're not, only an exceptionally and sincerely twisted (or shallow) individual needs a marketing team to sell them on the merits of this cause. we aren't selling vacuums we're protesting police brutality and murder.

I'm reminded of the very weird way people respond to messages about climate change. You would expect that when people are shown that there's overwhelming evidence that something is true they would respect the facts. But very, very often that doesn't happen. People simply don't believe that what is empirically true, is true. They think, climate change is a hoax. Climate change is fake.

Now, if you can't persuade people that incontrovertible facts about the weather are true, I wouldn't be surprised that it's difficult to persuade people that some moral facts are true (e.g., there shouldn't be an epidemic of cops shooting black people). To me, the question becomes how do you get your message across?

It would seem that the approach does matter at the end of the day, and that it's not just the emotional timbre that's at play, but even more elementary tactics of what information will really deliver the goods.

 

[TickTockMan]

Karen: If I walked up to you and slapped you in the face, then asked you to join my side, would you?


BLM is slapping PRIDE in the face in my opinion. PRIDE is made up by people. People are going to act like assholes. The trick is to not slap them in the face.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Karen: If I walked up to you and slapped you in the face, then asked you to join my side, would you?


BLM is slapping PRIDE in the face in my opinion. PRIDE is made up by people. People are going to act like assholes. The trick is to not slap them in the face.

i don't see the analogy. i can't compare crashing a party to physical violence.

 

[TickTockMan]

i don't see the analogy. i can't compare crashing a party to physical violence.

I don't see how not, but fine.


For some this is their one time of year to be themselves. However little BLM is trying to change things from what most says works. Flexing your muscles is not always the smartest move.

 

[luckynumbah7]

I see your point, but now please see mine.

Here is an officer that rode with Dykes on Bikes.

Here are officers flying the PRIDE flag.

Also in the time of Orlando and Trump; do you really want NO police presence at all at PRIDEs?

I suggest you spell out your point in words. The Night of the Long Knives claims your sexuality doesn't trump your actions, even if they're 'on the job'. It certainly doesn't pretend your sexuality is your job and that every profession as a profession is welcome to celebrate itself in the parade.

Policing is a job. You do the job that you freely chose whether people welcome you with open arms or don't. You do not decide that some people do not deserve to be policed because you disagree with their views on the history and current events relating to your job.

Otherwise you're just gladhanding with a taser behind your back.

 

[luckynumbah7]

For some this is their one time of year to be themselves.

And whose policing them and their behavior, might I ask? Would that societal pressure include....everybody, including the representations of local and governmental authority? Perhaps especially Johnny Law?

 

[TickTockMan]

I suggest you spell out your point in words. The Night of the Long Knives claims your sexuality doesn't trump your actions, even if they're 'on the job'. It certainly doesn't pretend your sexuality is your job and that every profession as a profession is welcome to celebrate itself in the parade.

Policing is a job. You do the job that you freely chose whether people welcome you with open arms or don't. You do not decide that some people do not deserve to be policed because you disagree with their views on the history and current events relating to your job.

Otherwise you're just gladhanding with a taser behind your back.

And whose policing them and their behavior, might I ask? Would that societal pressure include....everybody, including the representations of local and governmental authority? Perhaps especially Johnny Law?

My point is I have seen the Portland police deal with homophobes at PRIDE before. They are not just there to wave flags. Furthermore I know of no other profession that has been asked not to attend PRIDE. Hell, this year Portland PRIDE even had a Satanist booth at the festival.

Yes things can turn fast. Yes they could turn against civilians, but it is much more likely they would be on our side or at least do their jobs if something horrific happened.

 

[luckynumbah7]

Here's a not-hypothetical example,

If one can hide being Alphabet Soup, why would I (or someone of another visible minority state, say, black people who continue to be shot by all and sundry with nary a lawbook thrown, people who by and large cannot hide) acquiesce to such a celebration (a celebration of being 'out-n'proud gods-be-damned to the consequences, no less) want to involve a profession in the celebration that has a long history of leaving people's ass for dead because they're out n'proud/visible?

A couple insert-slurs-here workin' the job with a mandatory 'sensitivity' course does not an ally of a profession make. Nor does a handful of decent people replace the actions of the profession as a whole. For replacement you need Time + Shitload of Behavioral Changes, and neither has yet to occur.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Yes things can turn fast. Yes they could turn against civilians, but it is much more likely they would be on our side or at least do their jobs if something horrific happened.

"our side" meaning white gays cuz the police damn sure ain't on black gays' side. it's easy to say you feel safe when the police are not a proven threat to your very livelihood. it does, however, completely ignore the ugly opposite truth for those of us the police usually view as a threat requiring no less than lethal response. perhaps that lack of acknowledgment is why they're crashing Pride in the first place. *lightbulb*

 

[TickTockMan]

Here's a not-hypothetical example,

If one can hide being Alphabet Soup, why would I (or someone of another visible minority state, say, black people who continue to be shot by all and sundry with nary a lawbook thrown, people who by and large cannot hide) acquiesce to such a celebration (a celebration of being 'out-n'proud gods-be-damned to the consequences, no less) want to involve a profession in the celebration that has a long history of leaving people's ass for dead because they're out n'proud/visible?

A couple insert-slurs-here workin' the job with a mandatory 'sensitivity' course does not an ally of a profession make. Nor does a handful of decent people replace the actions of the profession as a whole. For replacement you need Time + Shitload of Behavioral Changes, and neither has yet to occur.

So throw the baby out with the bath water?


Sounds like you want to forsake those officers that are out. At some point you have to be willing to fight for what you want, not from the utopian ideal, but from what you have and where you are at.

 

[TickTockMan]

"our side" meaning white gays cuz the police damn sure ain't on black gays' side. it's easy to say you feel safe when the police are not a proven threat to your very livelihood. it does, however, completely ignore the ugly opposite truth for those of us the police usually view as a threat requiring no less than lethal response. perhaps that lack of acknowledgment is why they're crashing Pride in the first place. *lightbulb*

Again I'm not white.



This is not a black or white issue. You want to group everyone that isn't black in the against you group. That is why nothing will change.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Again I'm not white.



This is not a black or white issue. You want to group everyone that isn't black in the against you group. That is why nothing will change.

one thing you'll NEVER successfully convince me of is that i'm the reason for this divide. it's nowhere near my fault if people wanna ignore atrocities committed against an entire and, fuck, soon to be endangered group.

in it's simplest form here's the problem

white lgbt response to Pride being crashed: anger. righteous indignation. HOW DARE THEY??!!

white lgbt response to countless deaths at the hands of police officers: *crickets*

THAT is why they chose Pride because it's pretty much the only place/location they can be noticed, unless they had some big buck mandingo in a porn with "BLM" painted across his chest. am i lying?

and again, it goes both ways, the black church which is the epicenter of black american culture has been equally as silent on atrocities against gay and trans people, fortunately those numbers aren't as disparaging although i wonder if that's due to fewer incidence or just lack of media coverage.

at the end of the day we're all invisible to the powers that be so nothing less than joining sides makes a lick of sense to me, vs arguing over how a message is delivered that just sounds... stupid. pointless and stupid and ultimately dangerous.

 

[mikey3000]

this is what i find most disheartening. "THEY". it should be us. i said in another thread, if gay people were being gunned down the way black people are your responses would be 1,000% different. sometimes i feel like as a black man the only purpose i serve for LGBT is my "big black mandingo cawk." my social and political concerns are an inconvenient truth that nobody really has any interest in.

and i can't reiterate how much i hope i'm misinterpreting your "they" because from my seat it looks like you're using it almost like a curse word, i can just feel the disdain through the screen. they. they like, ewwwww THEY. yuck! THEM!

Let me ask you this, who is doing the vast majority of the gunning down of black people? If black lives don't matter to other blacks, then why should they matter to anyone else? Call me racist all you want, but if this was happening in my community, I'd be the first to lead a crusade from within to admit there is a problem, then try to help fix my community, not drag the rest of society down with it. The BLM movement has just latched onto pride because they don't want to do the grunt work for themselves. But gay pride is now mixing into main stream society and is slowly fading. BLM will have to stand on their own. Good luck. You've already had 150 years.

 

[luckynumbah7]

So throw the baby out with the bath water?


Sounds like you want to forsake those officers that are out. At some point you have to be willing to fight for what you want, not from the utopian ideal, but from what you have and where you are at.

What baby? That's like saying the soup is edible because only one of the ingredients in it are deadly poison. You don't cook the bad shrooms with the good carrots and peas, you throw the mess out and start from scratch. Preferably with the edible mushrooms instead of the handfuls of poison.

You may be unawares, but you are not your job (as a concept and a literalness) and neither are those officers. There's a reason they're not patrolling - as individuals - 24/7 instead of going by a 9 hour day like the rest of us. Their job is also political, and I didn't see you aiming to let in that "Let's sneak in a float for Trump's anti-lgbt policies' just cuz it was demanded by a gay go-getter; so what's the change? The social politics of either institution have not shifted, nor have the sexualities of the individuals. Not on a scale that would cause change, anyway; and no, a few good apples doesn't make the bad barrel taste any better.

 

[zoltanspawn]

...
at the end of the day we're all invisible to the powers that be so nothing less than joining sides makes a lick of sense to me, vs arguing over how a message is delivered that just sounds... stupid. pointless and stupid and ultimately dangerous.

I would argue exactly the opposite. Effective strategies are inherently linked to effective messaging. I mean, the arts and means of communication have been employed to varying success throughout human history by pretty much...everyone. I'm rather dumbfounded by the notion that consideration of how we talk to one another might be characterized as you have above.

If the entire concept of persuasion is off the table ("you're either on board or you're not") what exactly is the strategy here? Why else are you bothering to post in this thread if not to persuade people of your point of view?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Let me ask you this, who is doing the vast majority of the gunning down of black people? If black lives don't matter to other blacks, then why should they matter to anyone else? Call me racist all you want, but if this was happening in my community, I'd be the first to lead a crusade from within to admit there is a problem, then try to help fix my community, not drag the rest of society down with it. The BLM movement has just latched onto pride because they don't want to do the grunt work for themselves. But gay pride is now mixing into main stream society and is slowly fading. BLM will have to stand on their own. Good luck. You've already had 150 years.

NOW you sound like a racist idiot. you think black people turn a blind eye to intraracial violence? fuck off! there are grassroots citizen and community groups that address that very violence they just don't get lots of media coverage. you think a black mother who lost her children to violence at the hands of another black person didn't care? you're a fucking idiot.

and for that matter there's no such thing as "black on black crime." violence by and large tends to be at the hands of someone you know, that is consistent across all races. most asians are murdered by asians, most whites murdered by whites, that trend is incidental and not at all comparable to police violence. and the HUGE difference is that if a black person kills another black person they're in jail by midnight and tried and convicted shortly thereafter. ironically if they'd simply done it with a uniform and badge on they'd have walked.

it is completely racist to think black people just sat around watching ourselves kill each other until social media put police brutality back in the headlines.

now you've crossed the line into troll territory [Text: Removed]

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I would argue exactly the opposite. Effective strategies are inherently linked to effective messaging. I mean, the arts and means of communication have been employed to varying success throughout human history by pretty much...everyone. I'm rather dumbfounded by the notion that consideration of how we talk to one another might be characterized as you have above.

If the entire concept of persuasion is off the table ("you're either on board or you're not") what exactly is the strategy here? Why else are you bothering to post in this thread if not to persuade people of your point of view?

i cannot fathom why people need to be sold on the idea that a clear trend of state-sanctioned murder is a problem. who the fuck needs a powerpoint presentation to convince them that an entire group of people is deserving of life or at least justice?

 

[luckynumbah7]

To make a short explanation even shorter, perhaps the institutional executioner with those scales o'judgement in the shape of police issue weaponry should actually be the change they want to see before demanding entrance to the 'party'. Keep in mind the first one was a riot and they sure as shit weren't there to have a friendly collective beer. Not with us, anyway.

Merely claiming something is so through the politics of the uniformed being visible as part of a celebration is not how things actually change. Not for law enforcement, anyway, though it certainly lets the "I got mine, Jack" onto the bottom rung of the clubhouse ladder. Instead the institution should do the job that everyone else is under the impression they should be doing already.

And if doing your job hinges on people liking you then they're in the wrong damned profession.

Can't believe you made that asinine suggestion, honestly. You shouldn't have to be a bosum chum to get equal treatment.

 

[zoltanspawn]

i cannot fathom why people need to be sold on the idea that a clear trend of state-sanctioned murder is a problem. who the fuck needs a powerpoint presentation to convince them that an entire group of people is deserving of life or at least justice?

Gosh, lots, in my view. Have you ever noticed how people are?

People suffer terribly from profound ignorance and malicious tendencies.

I mean, look around^.

Rights and justice won't enact themselves just because they are the true and good things to do; we have to labor for them, and engage in all the tedium of elaborating even the simplest moral statements.