Pro-Gay Christians

[-Lance-]

As much as I want everyone to be pro-gay...

I can't help but dislike what christians are doing. You shouldn't "pick and choose" which things you wish to practice or believe in a religion.

That why I am not religous, I can't be 100% supportive.



I thought about this issue today because this girl at my school said that all suicides go to hell. This upset me, because my brother overdosed trying to kill himself recently, thankfully he is alive.

But this girl is pro-gay, doesn't think gays go to hell.



What is this? Picking and choosing is bullshit.

 

[josher]

I very much doubt that many people, even the clergy, accept every single teaching of their various religions.

Many Jews do not practice completely kosher diets.

Many Catholic couples use birth control.

Many Protestents wouldn't accept some mainstream Christian teachings.

And I suspect this has always been so.

 

[sibersan]

i personally dont like religion, i dont see a point in it, i live by my morals

 

[valis23]

It's a stepping stone for folks who can't see their way clear to give up their religious upbringing completely. My gut instinct is to agree, but I have to give those people credit for not blindly following what they've been told all their lives. At least they're trying to think on their own.

 

[-Lance-]

Methinks, Lance, you idealize religion even more than the religious adherents do.

Religions are guides to life, not immutable laws of physics.

Try applying the same intolerance you have of religious imperfection say, to your bank, to your school, to your employer, to your friends, to your diet, to your town. . . You're gay. Are you 100% supportive of bathroom glory holes, fisting, S&M, marriage, and every other strip of homosexuality? Are you implying bisexuals are only half committed to being gay?

Absolutism is almost (lol) always wrong.

Think about it. The simplest thoughts are not necessarily the truest.

My life and morals do not relate entirely, if any, on my sexuality.

People are very passionate about religion, and they have a right to be. It's basically a reflection on how you view life should be lived amongst people and God.

There are a lot of things I can agree with in Christianity. But some I do not. I would never call myself a Christian or see why anyone else would if they didn't fully support the text and practice.

 

[construct]

Lookit, -Lance-, take the goddamn support where you can get it! Ya hear?

 

[star-warrior]

As I understand it, the quote from the bible which says something (according to its proponents) about gay=bad in Deuteronomy is several verses down from the adultery thing. If they applied the same vehement hate to divorcees and people who have extra-marital affairs, then at least they'd come across as taking the book literally. But of course, its one rule for one group and another for the other(s).

 

[Kulindahr]

People are very passionate about religion, and they have a right to be. It's basically a reflection on how you view life should be lived amongst people and God.

There are a lot of things I can agree with in Christianity. But some I do not. I would never call myself a Christian or see why anyone else would if they didn't fully support the text and practice.

I'm a Christian, and I do "fully support the text and practice".

But neither issue you mentioned in your first post is clear. Christians have been often united, but frequently divided, on whether suicides go to hell -- down to arguing that it can depend on the type of suicide.

Nor is the homosexuality matter clear. If you'd lived in the early 1800s, would you have complained about "Christians" who didn't approve of slavery? Approval of slavery had long-standing acceptance -- to the point that in the British colonies, alongside African slaves there were Irish slaves....

I don't believe that suicide automatically sends you to hell -- because actions don't send anyone to hell, and suicide is just another action. Many say that suicide is really a cry for help -- doesn't God listen to cries for help?

Nor am I convinced that the Bible condemns homosexuality... any more than it affirmed slavery.

Do you expect Christians to continue believing that the world is flat? or that the Sun moves but the earth doesn't? Those were also both accepted as God's Own Truth once upon a time -- and could be argued from scripture, except... well, except that the arguments were hollow.

 

[Kulindahr]

As I understand it, the quote from the bible which says something (according to its proponents) about gay=bad in Deuteronomy is several verses down from the adultery thing. If they applied the same vehement hate to divorcees and people who have extra-marital affairs, then at least they'd come across as taking the book literally. But of course, its one rule for one group and another for the other(s).

The O.T. references which have traditionally been thought to condemn homosexuality are in Leviticus. But God shelved that whole thing in Acts 15, so... well, that kinda ends that, huh?

But just to compare, homosexuality (if that's even what the texts mean) is listed as being the same sort of offense as eating oysters, having a cheeseburger, wearing Spandex athletic shorts (they all have two kinds of fibers!), and other utterly reprehensible stuff.

Of course the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally, it's meant to be taken according to the kind of literature it is, in each section -- but I take it you're pointing out they'd at least be consistent....

 

[construct]

As I understand it, the quote from the bible which says something (according to its proponents) about gay=bad in Deuteronomy is several verses down from the adultery thing. If they applied the same vehement hate to divorcees and people who have extra-marital affairs, then at least they'd come across as taking the book literally. But of course, its one rule for one group and another for the other(s).

Well, there's seven "terrible texts" texts, star warrior. And I think the dogmatic, anti-gay Christians have misunderstood all of them. But that's a subject for another day.

Although I reject Jesus, I do not see any need to reject his followers who affirm the worth of gay folk. There is a place, an important place, for pro-gay Christians within the movement for gay equality.

 

[star-warrior]

Well, there's seven "terrible texts" texts, star warrior. And I think the dogmatic, anti-gay Christians have misunderstood all of them. But that's a subject for another day.

Although I reject Jesus, I do not see any need to reject his followers who affirm the worth of gay folk. There is a place, an important place, for pro-gay Christians within the movement for gay equality.

I upset Shep in another thread about respect for religions. Maybe my Church of England schooling with morning prayer and hymns and selective quotes from the bible informed me early on about Christianity, but the bad stuff, the hate and stuff, I found out much later. In fact, if it weren't for JUB and other newsgroups I've been on, I'd never known about Phelps, Mormonism, Scientology and the like. I would think there are religious and accepting people out there working for gay equality, but they face the often huge egos of the organised religions. What one knows about all facets of a religion helps give one a more rounded view of their cosmology. Maybe its the scientist and cynic in me speaking.

 

[star-warrior]

The O.T. references which have traditionally been thought to condemn homosexuality are in Leviticus. But God shelved that whole thing in Acts 15, so... well, that kinda ends that, huh?

Oops.

Acts is written by St. Paul - the original anti-gay leader of the early Christian sect isn it? Its quite convenient to cobble up texts and promote a way of thinking. Afterall, look at the success of scientology.

But just to compare, homosexuality (if that's even what the texts mean) is listed as being the same sort of offense as eating oysters, having a cheeseburger, wearing Spandex athletic shorts (they all have two kinds of fibers!), and other utterly reprehensible stuff.

Of course the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally, it's meant to be taken according to the kind of literature it is, in each section -- but I take it you're pointing out they'd at least be consistent....

Yes. Are you wearing anything made of two different materials? Should I stone you? Are you a fan of crustaceans?

 

[construct]

Acts is written by St. Paul - the original anti-gay leader of the early Christian sect isn it?

Well, no. It was written by Luke, the original champion of the outsiders. Sorry.

 

[star-warrior]

Oh well.

 

[construct]

To return to the Deuteronomy passage you mentioned--It is derived from the Holiness Code (so called because of the constant refrain that one should observe these laws because God is holy) in Leviticus. These passages describe various acts as being "abominations," a technical term to describe religious violations. The goal of the Holiness Code was to distinguish the Israelites from the Canaanite people that they came to live among.

The whole context of those passages has passed away. And besides, Jesus said that plucking grain on the Sabbath was acceptable because "man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man." He thereby abrogated the whole law.

 

[rareboy]

can't help but dislike what christians are doing. You shouldn't "pick and choose" which things you wish to practice or believe in a religion.

That why I am not religous, I can't be 100% supportive.

I thought about this issue today because this girl at my school said that all suicides go to hell. This upset me, because my brother overdosed trying to kill himself recently, thankfully he is alive.

There are a lot of things I can agree with in Christianity. But some I do not. I would never call myself a Christian or see why anyone else would if they didn't fully support the text and practice.

I keep pointing out that Christ had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality. I think that many christains are pro-gay.

Many christians don't believe what your friend thinks about suicide.

There is a huge difference between faith and dogma. There is a huge difference between faith and religion.

Please don't confuse the writings of the old testament prophets and poets and the new testament apostles as selected by the early christian church and edited by the King Jame's guys, with the teachings of Christ.

 

[JackFTwist]

I would never call myself a Christian or see why anyone else would if they didn't fully support the text and practice.

Sorry Lance, but is it not a bit presumptive of you to determine how people who practice a faith that you don't share, that you decide what it is they must believe?

On the matter of interpretation of Scripture and the handling of tradition in Christianity, you are simply wrong, Lance. You assume a certain American form of fundamentalism that developed in the 1920s has been universal since and including the time of Christ, and for that you are simply wrong. A simple study of church history would reveal that, and why for the vast majority of the Church in every age fundamentalism is a fraudulent interpretation, a barely practiced one. Are you the judge of the faith of others?

That leaves us with the possibilities that there are a lot more ways of understanding than you give credence to.

Gays don't go to hell. People who attempt or are successful at suicide do not go to hell.

In fact, hell itself is a construct that is not a reality, Dante's Inferno and the excesses of Chick publications notwithstanding.

We all have a sad tendency to assume that the particular that we are exposed to is the universal, no matter what the subject. Reality is always far more vast than our own experiences.

I pray for your brother, that he may find the peace he needs.

I also suggest to you and perhaps your brother a fascinating book on suicide entitled The Savage God by A. Alvarez which you can easily google and buy almost anywhere, portions of it are online although I suggest the whole book, not the portions. I suggest this will speak to you in your situation, a statement with all respect and love.

 

[RationalLunacy]

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

~Matthew 7: 1-5

 

[Jeimuzu]

Religion is conflictory. I pity anyone who lives the confused life of someone who believes in all of it.

 

[Apollo]

As much as I want everyone to be pro-gay...

I can't help but dislike what christians are doing. You shouldn't "pick and choose" which things you wish to practice or believe in a religion.

That why I am not religous, I can't be 100% supportive.



I thought about this issue today because this girl at my school said that all suicides go to hell. This upset me, because my brother overdosed trying to kill himself recently, thankfully he is alive.

But this girl is pro-gay, doesn't think gays go to hell.



What is this? Picking and choosing is bullshit.

Well you cant have it all your way. I mean if you are Democratic, you can't believe in EVERYTHING that the Democrats want to do, but you still believe in them.