Pro-Gay Christians

[Apollo]

i personally dont like religion, i dont see a point in it, i live by my morals

your morals, first thought of by religion

 

[Jeimuzu]

your morals, first thought of by religion

What on earth makes you think that?

My morals have nothing to do with my religion. My morals are purely about focusing on what hurts (in any way) others, and what doesn't. That, and only that, defines my morality.

 

[G-Lexington]

So is that where we stand now?

Have we advanced far enough that when Christians go to bat for us, we can swat that away? Say "We don't need your support, thank YOU very little, call us when you're matured enough to stop believing in fairy tales"?

Have we advanced enough that after decades of pleading with people to find it in the hearts to simply accept us no matter how strange our beliefs and behaviors appeared to them...we can now turn to them and reject them because we don't like their beliefs?

Progress indeed. How long before we start outlawing religions and raiding their churches?

Lex

 

[Swellegant]

I understand your viewpoint, -Lance-, it is essentially the same as drove me from the Christian church in the first place: I was taught that the Bible was immutable, you had to take it or leave it in its entirety. So I left it.

But afterward, I learned a lot more about the Bible, and though I never came back to believe in the central teaching of the Bible, that it was inspired by God and representative of God's will (or even that Christ was divine, or any form of divine intervention), I did come to see that all Christians pick and choose which parts to believe. You can't help it... if you did everything the Bible told you, your life would be endlessly complicated.

For example, I was discussing with my Grandmother an issue that came up in her church about women participating in the service, such as reading a verse, leading song, or handing communion. Somewhere in Corinthians, I forget exactly where, it says that women shall remain silent in the congregation, and Grandmother and all the other old-timers always brought up this particular verse when it came to the question of women participating in church services; however, the context was about speaking in tongues, which her church doesn't do; furthermore, it states quite clearly just a few verses earlier, that women must either cover their heads or shave them. And does this silence also apply to singing? Women sing, and talk to each-other, should that be allowed? Both the context and the previous verse had been (and still are) assumed to be "symbolic," while the verse in question was considered immutable, but only because that's what their generation had been taught. There was no clarity.

In the verses dealing with homosexuality, there are a lot of other things that people ignore completely. And the question of suicides going to Hell isn't even dealt with in the Bible, as far as I know... correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole Heaven/Hell issue wasn't really clarified until some time later. I know there was some talk of being with God or not with God ('eternal' doesn't mean 'everlasting,' it means 'with God') but unless it's hidden away in some place I've never studied, Jesus never said Word One about Heaven or Hell, and if you ask me, only the words of Jesus Himself bear any particular weight... the rest is just "inspiration," not a direct quote from God... sort of the Divine version of slash fiction, if you see what I mean.

Anyway, inconsistency isn't a good reason to reject Christianity. Nor is the behavior of certain self-professed Christians. You should take it or leave it based on what you feel in your heart. I feel in my heart that Jesus was not God Incarnate, and the Bible was not Divinely Inspired, and so I reject the religion; however, what the Christ says in the Gospels is good, and worth considering... as are the teachings of Lao Tze and Bill Wilson.

Take the wisdom you recognize and abandon the claptrap that others have pinned on, is all I can say.

 

[construct]

So is that where we stand now?

Have we advanced far enough that when Christians go to bat for us, we can swat that away? Say "We don't need your support, thank YOU very little, call us when you're matured enough to stop believing in fairy tales"?

Have we advanced enough that after decades of pleading with people to find it in the hearts to simply accept us no matter how strange our beliefs and behaviors appeared to them...we can now turn to them and reject them because we don't like their beliefs?

Progress indeed. How long before we start outlawing religions and raiding their churches?

Lex

Softly!

Don't tempt them.

 

[Swellegant]

Oh, another thing about pro-gay Christians: they are truer Christians than the anti-gay.

You see, no one sin is greater than another, and all men (and women) are sinners. We commit sins of anger, of lust, of envy, whatever, every single-dingle day. And Christ did say: "You who are without sin may cast the first stone." So though murder and being mean are different in human law, they are the same in God's eyes, and so no Christian has room to be anti-gay unless they themselves are without sin.

Now the question of whether a gay man can have sinful relations with his partner and not be ashamed of them is an issue that I can't get into because I don't know how that works... I'm not a Christian, so it doesn't matter to me. But I do know that God, even the God of the Bible, is understanding and forgiving of our little weaknesses, like the need to have sex with people we love even without the possibility of childbirth (which is forbidden for straights, too, you know, so throw out those birth-control pills and cancel that vasectomy).

 

[star-warrior]

Take the wisdom you recognize and abandon the claptrap that others have pinned on, is all I can say.

That is a wonderful thing to say.

 

[Shepherd 2]

Put this thread in S & R.
That way I will not ever happen to look at it.
Shep+

 

[star-warrior]

It could sink into obscurity....

 

[Pushover]

If only that were true for the subject matter, star-warrior.


I always feel debating religion is pointless. Nobody changes their opinion or view, the evidence has been argued between experts far more knowledgeable than we, and it can only end in a 'you're wrong/I'm right' situation.

 

[LiquidSky]

My parents and sister are pro-gay Christians as are many of their friends. I consider myself a Christian as well.

 

[Apollo]

What on earth makes you think that?

My morals have nothing to do with my religion. My morals are purely about focusing on what hurts (in any way) others, and what doesn't. That, and only that, defines my morality.

yes, but they were first thought up by religion. what you believe to be right or wrong was established long before you were born, despite what you may or may not think. And they were thought of by religion

 

[Swellegant]

yes, but they were first thought up by religion. what you believe to be right or wrong was established long before you were born, despite what you may or may not think. And they were thought of by religion

The fact that religion is used to support morality doesn't mean that morality was created by religion. True, religion has always existed in human society, as has morality (for without morality there cannot be society). There are variations on the moralities of the religions, but you'll find that there are certain universal morals... which are invariably to do no harm to others.

This is the difference between morality and ethics: ethics is concerned with doing the right thing, not merely the acceptable thing. For example, the Biblical Commandment "Do Not Kill" is an absolute, yet there are all sorts of loopholes in the Bible where God tells someone or some group to go kill a bunch of foreigners or their own transgressors. Yet not killing anybody at all is the ethical approach because killing is the worst kind of harm.

Anyway, just as there are ways to be immoral and unethical within religious constructs, there are ways to obtain morality without religion, ways to discover right and wrong without resort to being told. All it takes is empathy... you wouldn't want that done to you, so you don't do it. And if you would want that done to you but know the other people don't want that done to them, you don't do that either. It's all very simple and completely independent of any religious construct.

The threat of Heaven and Hell is merely a goad to make you see outside of your natural desire for supremacy over others. Some people have a harder time empathizing and need a bigger stick. But the stick should never be confused with the goal... that is the mistake so many people make with religious strictures. You don't love God to escape Hell, you love God because He is Good.

But I am not (any longer) anti-religious. If people want religion, if it makes them happy and does not make them do harm to others, then they're welcome to it as far as I'm concerned. I believe differently, and if they will allow my belief I will allow theirs. Empathy and reciprocity are all I ask and everything I accord.

Anyway, that's my take on the topic. I could very well be wrong (not likely, but possible )

 

[duroc5088]

well personally as a southern baptist man I do believe that if you commit suicide that you will go to hell. But that is just simply my belief, and i'm not trying to push that on anyone else, so don't get your panties in a wad girls. I DO beleive in what the BIBLE says, and that is ONE of the unforgivable sins.

Dirk

 

[construct]

well personally as a southern baptist man I do believe that if you commit suicide that you will go to hell. But that is just simply my belief, and i'm not trying to push that on anyone else, so don't get your panties in a wad girls. I DO beleive in what the BIBLE says, and that is ONE of the unforgivable sins.

Dirk

Please quote the verse with citation.

 

[Swellegant]

I just did a word search at Bible Gateway (a great tool for looking up passages) and can't find an unforgiveable sin in the Bible. Nor can I find a reference to prescribed punishments for suicide... and I was taught (I was raised Church of Christ) that there is no sin for which there cannot be forgiveness; though suicide makes it difficult to ask forgiveness, since you're dead. But God knows what is in your heart, and with repentance even at the very last second, He can forgive even a suicide if He so chooses.

But you know, one of the reasons that churches can be so powerful is because the Bible is awfully difficult to read. Most people can't quote the thing chapter and verse, and so they just accept what they're told. And even when they can quote chapter and verse, they usually can't give you any context. I know that the famous passage in Leviticus rates homosexuality at about the same level of uncleanness (not sinfulness, mind you, but ritual uncleanness) as having mildew in your house or a running sore on your body. RationalLunacy can give you a better discussion of this topic, but most of the proscriptions against homosexuality are usually taken completely out of context when used to condemn homosexuals.

Another thing that has always worried me is how frequently people take religious writings for gospel truth. Much of what people think heaven and hell are like are taken not from the Bible but from Dante's The Divine Comedy. Which is kinda sad when you think about it.

 

[Blatino]

I saw this funny but thought provoking quote on this little wooden sign at the festival that said "The 10 Commandments are not multiple choice."

 

[Pushover]

I saw this funny but thought provoking quote on this little wooden sign at the festival that said "The 10 Commandments are not multiple choice."

They're also redundant, hazardous to modern society, and overly quoted.