Project INDECT: European Surveillance

[bankside]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

What are you going on about jack springer for (and corny for that matter)? I don't know what posts you are referring to. Did I miss a shit show and half the posts are gone? This is post 31 as far as I can see, and based on the 30 preceding it, I stand by my remarks.
And what part of recent Canadian history is instructive here?

Tengilethos it is apt that you mention South Africa. The resemblance of Germany's government after the Second World War has no more to do with the third reich than South Africa's government under democracy can be equated with South Africa's government under apartheid. None of those governments are immune from criticism but suggesting some kind of continuity between old and new is beyond pointless and into the realm of a xenophobic slander.

All of which people are welcome to continue spouting as I am welcome to continue refuting.

 

[bankside]

They are not parting with civil liberties. This 'data' is given up freely when each user signs a contract. It is extremely simply to not sign that contract.

Ten fingers you panties are in a wad but it is ok... we still could go on another couple centuries on this path and not have the war mongering destructive nature of the German people. That is all you will be known for over the next couple centuries and nothing you people say or do will change the fact that you tried to exterminate the world.... twice.

A crock of complete excrement about the nature of "German people." You wouldn't want to know where you'd find support for that notion of inherent immutable traits.

And the point you present on voluntary contracts has already been ably refuted by kulindahr with useful context from palbert.

I do have a question on that point however. If the terms of the contract are voluntary then Google or Facebook have created those terms at their discretion. Why don't they offer terms more amenable to our legitimate privacy interests?

Voluntary my ass.

 

[kallipolis]

Voluntary my ass.

Bingo!.................

 

[JayHawk]

I apologize. I was pretty mad yesterday and should not have posted without calming down. I don't think what I said was actually xenophobic, more a really unfair and exaggerated characterization, but I don't want to argue over semantics. Anyway, this was inappropriate:

That is very exaggerated and people can come to the conclusion that more security is worth the loss in freedom with logical thinking. But I want to ask who first doubted the other people's courage?

And if my comments are xenophobic, what was this?



This post made me really mad and I overreacted, but this is really really ignorant.


And I think the gist of my post is still right. There is no doubt that European governments increased surveillance following 9/11. There are always more politicians with paternalistic/autocratic tendencies that would like the law enforcement agencies to have even more power. But overall privacy protections are not in a bad place, our own constitutional court struck down several methods to gain the data of citizens as too invasive. I am not naive enough to believe we know about everything our government does, but it is absolutely not on the level the US government is doing. At least in Germany this has also political reasons, because our government will nearly always consist of one of the two big parties who like more surveillance, and one of the two small parties who are very strong on civil liberties. Our current justice minister resigned as justice minister about 20 years ago rather than expand a wire tapping program.


And I still cannot understand how Americans can be so relaxed about their government spying on them. Don't you see that the terrorist win if they can force you to make your society less free?

And lastly, you cannot expect me to be unconcerned if the US government is spying on me, when I don't even have the limited protections US citizens enjoy.

Returning the favor.

I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated. And if my reaction was less than stellar to your comments it is because there are a few posters who never chime in on anything unless they can make themselves feel better by claiming to be non american. I suppose you got to try and claim something nationalistic to feel good but it is tiring.

It is covered in our law and accepted by the American people for the most part except for the tin foil hatters and poli-tics trying to suck the blood out of a situation for political gain. There is nothing wrong with and nothing with change because of the criminal Snowden.

 

[JayHawk]

What are you going on about jack springer for (and corny for that matter)? I don't know what posts you are referring to. Did I miss a shit show and half the posts are gone? This is post 31 as far as I can see, and based on the 30 preceding it, I stand by my remarks.
And what part of recent Canadian history is instructive here?

Tengilethos it is apt that you mention South Africa. The resemblance of Germany's government after the Second World War has no more to do with the third reich than South Africa's government under democracy can be equated with South Africa's government under apartheid. None of those governments are immune from criticism but suggesting some kind of continuity between old and new is beyond pointless and into the realm of a xenophobic slander.

All of which people are welcome to continue spouting as I am welcome to continue refuting.

You are perfectly free to onject and not partake in their domains. In fact, there are plenty of alternate solutions.

Google meet non tracking search engines

Any National cell plan meet the Tracfone. There is literally zero harm in shifting plans to something more your taste IF you disagree with a user agreement that gives your data to a corporation and the federal law that gives the government access.

Chicken Little meet sky!!

 

[kallipolis]

I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated.

Keep on denying it will not change the reality that the media is commenting upon in great detail that Americans are being spied upon by the NSA and that in closed session Congress is grilling FBI officials and intelligence chiefs:

I quote:

But senior figures from both parties emerged from the meeting alarmed at the extent of a surveillance program that many claimed never to have heard of until whistleblower Edward Snowden leaked a series of top-secret documents.

The congressional fury came at the end of a day of fast-moving developments.

• In a lawsuit filed in New York, the American Civil Liberties Union accused the US government of a process that was "akin to snatching every American's address book".

unquote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/anger-mounts-congress-telephone-surveillance-programmes

 

[palbert]

The CCTV's in Britain are being monitored, here is an example from 2007

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6524495.stm

You don't find this a little freaky?

 

[Kulindahr]

I still have no doubt that ZERO privacy has been violated.

Your privacy is violated every time you use the internet. Case in point: posts here should be private to JUB, but they aren't -- they can be found by googling them. You don't have to have an account with google; they track you anyway.

 

[Kulindahr]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

People should cry foul at fallacious arguments.

 

[Lostlover]

People should cry foul at fallacious arguments.

Jayhawk was nice enough to post ways to go into stealth mode, away from the peering eyes of the NSA. Are you going to get a Tracfone and stop using the major search engines?

 

[Kulindahr]

Jayhawk was nice enough to post ways to go into stealth mode, away from the peering eyes of the NSA. Are you going to get a Tracfone and stop using the major search engines?

WAKE UP.

It's been posted here multiple times: it doesn't matter if you use the major search engines; Google knows what you're doing whether they're your customer or not.

As for Tracfone, I've been trying to find if one of theirs will work with the Garmin GPS tracker for my service dog -- if one does, I've already decided to switch.



edit: it wasn't jayhawk, it was palbert.

 

[bankside]

just to avoid accusations of tinfoilhattery, by what means does google know this?

 

[Kulindahr]

just to avoid accusations of tinfoilhattery, by what means does google know this?

Can't find the article, but it's been linked in one of the threads about this. Basically, if you go to a site that uses google in any way ("search powered by google" google maps, whatever), google gets all the metadata and maybe more. Additionally, if your browser has a google tool bar, even if you don't use google for mail or search, they still know what you do -- and sometimes even if you've removed the google tool bar, they still know (you have to do a complete and thorough uninstall).

And IIRC, Google pays other companies for the metadata they're not gathering directly.

 

[Lostlover]

WAKE UP.

It's been posted here multiple times: it doesn't matter if you use the major search engines; Google knows what you're doing whether they're your customer or not.

As for Tracfone, I've been trying to find if one of theirs will work with the Garmin GPS tracker for my service dog -- if one does, I've already decided to switch.



edit: it wasn't jayhawk, it was palbert.

More talk and no actions. All these years you've branded yourself as someone concerned with liberty and "rights," but when it comes to abandoning Google, who is giving your information to the government, you can't be bothered to use another search engine.

There are ways around Google, but it will require lifting a couple of fingers and moving them across your keyboard to protect your liberty and rights.

I guess you're trying to have your Google and eat it too.

There's been a lot of talk the last couple of days: supporters not even bothering to lift a finger to support their cause and freedom watchers not willing to give the Google the boot. Google is so bad with privacy, even before this latest issue, in an admission of its own intrusive waves, 2 months ago, the company was offering people kill-switches on their personal data once they die.

Maybe one of the people here that claims to care about freedom, privacy, and personal rights can do something about protecting living people's privacy.

I've never seen a side of an argument defended so weakly.

 

[Lostlover]

There is no outrage from me on this matter actually. I am fully aware that if i post something on Facebook or Twitter for example, that i am not protected under the same scope as free speech as what citizens in the US are, and as such, that can and does lead to trackbacks so that the police can arrest you for committing crimes, such as inciting riots or hate speech, (and even then, its not a certainty, there tends to be crackdowns on bad behaviour when a riot is in full swing or when a subject is sensitive, rather than a 100% application). But the bulk of requests being made are probably in relation to terrorism investigations. For all i know, i'd only need to update my Facebook status with 'i let off a stink-bomb in the library today' and suddenly my government is spying on me, because their sophisticated means of spying noticed the word bomb in my status. Who knows. I certainly don't fear being spied on, i have nothing to hide. Then, if you look at muslims in the west, who governments may be keen to learn more about, well, its Europe that has the higher populations of muslims, ergo higher populations of radical ones amongst them. I don't know what it is like for you in the US, or for anyone in any other country, but in the UK, there have been countless incidents of individuals over the last decade, of muslims caught in relation to terrorist activities, and they keep coming out of the woodwork. These are people who our intelligence agencies NEED to be able to spy on, and if that means they may have reason to snoop around to find out who i am, good, they won't find anything that i wouldn't say to them if they popped around in person instead, at least they aren't having to waste my time finding out whether i'm any kind of threat to national security, they won't have reason to, simple as.

The only reason i can think that this whole affair is any BIG DEAL, is because the people of the US prefer generally that their government keeps their beaks as far back as possible. You have to have a balance though. You can't just sit back and do nothing, but you can't go too far either. So, for me, i'm happy for government to spy on me if they wish, i hope i provide them with some entertainment until they find a terrorist to follow, so long as they don't come knocking on my door to question me about activities that are in no way indicative of a tendency to blow myself up in a crowded place. That would just be a pointless endeavour.

You might not know this because it's one of the nuances that only Americans who follow the news pick up. Those people on TV that talk about rights and government intrusion (usually old) are full of shit. They love government more than anyone else in the world. Even more than Europe who they always seem to bring up when they talk about how they fear for our country's future. Government can't do enough for these people even though they swear up and down and on the Bible that they're self-made and independent.

If every European worked for the next two years and gave ever penny he or she made to the US, it would cover senior citizen's medication and procedures, both current and future expenses. But they swear they don't like the government. So, the idea that Americans care about government listening in on conversations is a myth.

Most Americans aren't that stereotype you quoted, even the loudmouths you seem to be referencing. They like government intrusion; it keeps them alive and breaths life into a good conspiracy theory.

 

[kallipolis]

So, the idea that Americans care about government listening in on conversations is a myth.

Keep repeating these words much like a mantra and you might just convince yourself...meantime, in the real world distant from your Alice in Wonderland make believe life Americans do care about their privacy and right to live their lives without government snooping with Congressional interrogation of those who head the NSA and FBI evidence of this fact of life in the United States of America.

 

[Kulindahr]

More talk and no actions. All these years you've branded yourself as someone concerned with liberty and "rights," but when it comes to abandoning Google, who is giving your information to the government, you can't be bothered to use another search engine.

There are ways around Google, but it will require lifting a couple of fingers and moving them across your keyboard to protect your liberty and rights.

I guess you're trying to have your Google and eat it too.

Don't read well, do you?

It doesn't matter which search engine you use -- Google still knows something like 98% of what you do online. As FrankFrank pointed out, the only way to avoid thus surveillance is to live like it's 1910.

It's like caring about global warming but still buying gasoline or using electricity or buying imported products: there are actions that can be taken, and actions that can't. In this case, you're advocating actions that can't be taken -- and you haven't said one word about actions that can.

Actions that can be taken:

• write the White House
• write your US Senators
• write your US Representatives

and others.

I've done five things that will actually have an effect. But if it makes you happy, go on acting so self-righteous, chastizing people for doing things that wouldn't make a difference anyway.

 

[Lostlover]

There is no outrage from me on this matter actually. I am fully aware that if i post something on Facebook or Twitter for example, that i am not protected under the same scope as free speech as what citizens in the US are, and as such, that can and does lead to trackbacks so that the police can arrest you for committing crimes, such as inciting riots or hate speech, (and even then, its not a certainty, there tends to be crackdowns on bad behaviour when a riot is in full swing or when a subject is sensitive, rather than a 100% application). But the bulk of requests being made are probably in relation to terrorism investigations. For all i know, i'd only need to update my Facebook status with 'i let off a stink-bomb in the library today' and suddenly my government is spying on me, because their sophisticated means of spying noticed the word bomb in my status. Who knows. I certainly don't fear being spied on, i have nothing to hide. Then, if you look at muslims in the west, who governments may be keen to learn more about, well, its Europe that has the higher populations of muslims, ergo higher populations of radical ones amongst them. I don't know what it is like for you in the US, or for anyone in any other country, but in the UK, there have been countless incidents of individuals over the last decade, of muslims caught in relation to terrorist activities, and they keep coming out of the woodwork. These are people who our intelligence agencies NEED to be able to spy on, and if that means they may have reason to snoop around to find out who i am, good, they won't find anything that i wouldn't say to them if they popped around in person instead, at least they aren't having to waste my time finding out whether i'm any kind of threat to national security, they won't have reason to, simple as.

The only reason i can think that this whole affair is any BIG DEAL, is because the people of the US prefer generally that their government keeps their beaks as far back as possible. You have to have a balance though. You can't just sit back and do nothing, but you can't go too far either. So, for me, i'm happy for government to spy on me if they wish, i hope i provide them with some entertainment until they find a terrorist to follow, so long as they don't come knocking on my door to question me about activities that are in no way indicative of a tendency to blow myself up in a crowded place. That would just be a pointless endeavour.

For some reason my response to the first paragraph was cropped, but here it goes:

So, let me get this right. You've accepted the UK government spying on you as a price to using the internet and staying safe from Muslims. But, it gets your ire when you hear that our government does it and does it on a smaller scale than your government?

How many silly responses will you guys have?

1) I support Snowden but don't ask me to actually do anything for him, including token things like avoiding Google or Microsoft of Apple products.

2) From Mr. Liberty himself... "I care about liberty and personal freedoms, but don't ask me about stopping to use Google even though they're passing my information on to the government without warrants." (Don't buy the Google-knows-everything defense --> )

and then this here above...

3) "I'm okay with the UK government spying on me to keep me safe, but it's wrong if the US government does the same thing on its citizens." Mitchymo, this is actually the SAME damn rationale from the NSA to spy on us: to keep us safe from terrorists (read: Muslims)!

You can't help but shake your head at this. And you guys are serious too!

For what it's worth, when I saw the graphic about how prolific the UK and German governments are at spying on their people, it didn't mean much to me. My attitude is that you, a citizen of your own country, can figure out how much spying you find to be acceptable. I sure as hell wouldn't even have commented on it, because I have enough things going on in my own life.

I'd love to see Greece's and Iceland's spying data as well. Unfortunately, they didn't even register on Gizmodo's radar (or it could be that they don't collect and publish data on this).

 

[JayHawk]

Your privacy is violated every time you use the internet. Case in point: posts here should be private to JUB, but they aren't -- they can be found by googling them. You don't have to have an account with google; they track you anyway.

BECAUSE you agreed to the terms of use and folks like CORNY allow google to take data from JUB servers so they can be found and increase profits.

LOL... stop making my argument for me. ANYTIME you agree to a user agreement to utilize a service provided by someone else you do so on THEIR terms.

 

[JayHawk]

Keep on denying it will not change the reality that the media is commenting upon in great detail that Americans are being spied upon by the NSA and that in closed session Congress is grilling FBI officials and intelligence chiefs:

I quote:

But senior figures from both parties emerged from the meeting alarmed at the extent of a surveillance program that many claimed never to have heard of until whistleblower Edward Snowden leaked a series of top-secret documents.

The congressional fury came at the end of a day of fast-moving developments.

• In a lawsuit filed in New York, the American Civil Liberties Union accused the US government of a process that was "akin to snatching every American's address book".

unquote

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/anger-mounts-congress-telephone-surveillance-programmes

Their tune will change once they have had the classified briefing that is scheduled next week.

EVERY SINGLE SENATOR no matter the political bent or their previous statements agrees with PRISM once they are read in.... that will not change. Everyone is not corrupt. I am pretty sure if you go back and look I stated very clearly that once BHO has a clue in office MOST of what he was bitching about for GWB will be saved and increased.

Meanwhile Europe records every waking moment in the public sphere of a peeking camera but that is no biggy. lol