Racism in Europe

[Apollo]

I have been talking to a few of my african friends, and one day we got into a discussion on racism and they talked about Europe. Both of them described racism in Europe as a hundred times worse than anything they have experienced in America. They did mention though, that some countries (Britain) are not much racist at all and have great policies to combat it. But looking back only a few years (France) they say countries like Britian aren't prevelant.

So often, when stories of racist acts in America pop up, many international JUBBERS quickly point fingers while ignoring their own countries sometimes even more violent actions towards minority groups.

So for our European JUBBERS, what is your opinion on racism in Europe?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704362004575000770798227684.html
http://abcnews.go.com/International/german-journalist-criticized-film-racism/story?id=8897384

This is not a baiting thread. I want serious conversation on the issue.

Italy's recent race riots are only a forerunner of things to come. Massive illegal immigration and native resentment are inevitable by-products of the European Union's broken immigration system, while xenophobia and rampant racism undermine its moral authority and put it in the camp of many of the tyrants it claims to despise. Italy and other European countries must learn from the American experience that comprehensive immigration reform is essential. Here's why.

 

[ViennaExpat83]

I have lived in US and in several EU countries. Sure there is racism in Europe too, but to say it's 100 times worse than in the US is crazy.
The biggest difference is probably that the racial minorities in Europe have only been here a short time, so there isn't the weight and baggage of centuries of more brutal racism like the history of slavery in the US.
Also a lot of the stronger racism in Europe nowadays is actually mixed in with fear and disgust in relation to very different cultural practices and worldview of some parts of the Muslim minority communities in some of the EU countries.

 

[Apollo]

I have lived in US and in several EU countries. Sure there is racism in Europe too, but to say it's 100 times worse than in the US is crazy.
The biggest difference is probably that the racial minorities in Europe have only been here a short time, so there isn't the weight and baggage of centuries of more brutal racism like the history of slavery in the US.
Also a lot of the stronger racism in Europe nowadays is actually mixed in with fear and disgust in relation to very different cultural practices and worldview of some parts of the Muslim minority communities in some of the EU countries.

Some countries in Europe have a long history of racism and slavery similar to America. Not as intense for sure, and not as too the forefront as in America. Probably due to the fact that you have more history to wade through, but it still exists.

And what is with the assimilation thing? I think that is one that that possibly angers and offends minorities in European countries, they have to assimilate.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

europe like americas africa india asia china so on

treat own populations like dipshit

maybe them live in countrys own birth of genreations go start living not turn inta sheep of systems and leave da imigrants ans so on out of da bitching

got stop reading

cue anime

 

[Apollo]

europe like americas africa india asia china so on

treat own populations like dipshit

maybe them live in countrys own birth of genreations go start living not turn inta sheep of systems and leave da imigrants ans so on out of da bitching

got stop reading

cue anime

um....could you write that in english please?

 

[ViennaExpat83]

Some countries in Europe have a long history of racism and slavery similar to America. Not as intense for sure, and not as too the forefront as in America. Probably due to the fact that you have more history to wade through, but it still exists.

And what is with the assimilation thing? I think that is one that that possibly angers and offends minorities in European countries, they have to assimilate.

Sure, you are right, but European nations never brought huge amounts of slaves into the continent, they took them to the New World colonies. So, slavery inside Europe itself never left a huge institutional or cultural legacy.

For me it's a taken that if you immigrate somewhere, you have to try to adapt and assimilate. Having been an immigrant several times I always worked very hard to master the language and try to understand customs that seemed strange or absurd at first.

In Europe some people developed this idea of multiculturalism -- that the minorities should be able to keep living almost like in their native country and be kind of isolated from the majority culturally, although having full civil rights. Needless to say, it has worked like crap: the second and third generations feel completely alienated from the country in which they grew up and its culture and because of that of course they have a lot less opportunities to make it in life.

Also it is at heart a somewhat racist concept since its basis is "separate but equal", and doesn't believe in the good or possibility of minorities becoming fully incorporated culturally in the nation they chose as adoptive.
I think the "melting pot" concept in the US is pretty right -- people might keep some of the aspects of their cultural legacies, but the basic cultural make-up and mentality should be American, and everyone is equally an American, whether Italian-American, African-American or Mexican-American. Of course this doesn't always get completely realized in reality and often takes a couple of generations: but it is the ultimate goal of the system.

 

[ViennaExpat83]

^Bist du Oesterreicher?

Nein, bin ich nicht. Aber ich wohne hier in Österreich, weil meiner Partner österreicher ist. Ich bin einer Liebesmigrant!

 

[Apollo]

Are you a troll? You've made a few posts today and I cannot understand ONE of them. They make no sense and it's not just about bad grammar either.


Yes, they should assimilate to some degree at the very least. For example, Belgium recently banned public wearing of burqas. The government said that in their country they do not want women subject to law that hides and shields women. A burqa covers EVERYTHING except the eyes so you can see.
Then some countries have a problem with students wearing big religious outfits while in public schools/institutions. France banned it which affected mainly the girls who wore the scarf thing because they are Muslim. The main opposition to all these were of course Muslims.

There's also the fact that many Muslims see their faith as above criticism. Look at how they responded to Europe during the Danish and Norwegian(I think) comic prints. People actually died. It's a contemporary western idea that allows us to critique our faith and religious figures (jesus, pope, God or whatever). They aren't willing to accept that, even those who live in European countries and benefit from free speech.

Anyways, that's my mini rant.

By banning the burqa, Belgium essentially told muslims that their culture and history is stupid. Whether you agree with the wearing of the burqa or not, should not be up to governments. It is a cultural part of a people.

I mean, if they can't wear the burqa, then women shouldn't be allowed to wear a hat. It does cover up part of their hair after all, or mumu's. It covers up all of a womens body and gives no shape to a women's figure.

As for the Danish comic thing. It is actually written in their religion no picture of God or Mohammed (i forget which one) should be produced or drawn. No wear in Muslim society is one or the other drawn. The danish comic artist essentially drew Jesus taking it up the ass by another man and distributing it to a mass audience. It was culturally insensitive.

 

[Apollo]

Sure, you are right, but European nations never brought huge amounts of slaves into the continent, they took them to the New World colonies. So, slavery inside Europe itself never left a huge institutional or cultural legacy.

For me it's a taken that if you immigrate somewhere, you have to try to adapt and assimilate. Having been an immigrant several times I always worked very hard to master the language and try to understand customs that seemed strange or absurd at first.

In Europe some people developed this idea of multiculturalism -- that the minorities should be able to keep living almost like in their native country and be kind of isolated from the majority culturally, although having full civil rights. Needless to say, it has worked like crap: the second and third generations feel completely alienated from the country in which they grew up and its culture and because of that of course they have a lot less opportunities to make it in life.

Also it is at heart a somewhat racist concept since its basis is "separate but equal", and doesn't believe in the good or possibility of minorities becoming fully incorporated culturally in the nation they chose as adoptive.
I think the "melting pot" concept in the US is pretty right -- people might keep some of the aspects of their cultural legacies, but the basic cultural make-up and mentality should be American, and everyone is equally an American, whether Italian-American, African-American or Mexican-American. Of course this doesn't always get completely realized in reality and often takes a couple of generations: but it is the ultimate goal of the system.

Well some assimilation is required to live comfortably. Learning the language, the basic customs that could offend a native etc. But what I seem to notice in Europe, is that they want full assimilation, bordering on just shedding your old culture and history to the bare minimum.

The Burqa banning in Belgium is one incident that seems to indicate this.

One thing I notice in America, is that cultural sensitivity is very important in the public and private sector. You can get out of almost anything if you cite "cultural or religious" reasons if you can prove it.

Your last paragraph doesnt seem to the be the system some European countries wish to adopt.

 

[Sam Blum]

Sorry, I somehow posted the same thing twice.

 

[Sam Blum]

The notion that one would move into the space of another country, which is the sovereign land of the people there, and not think that assimilation is appropriate to say the least, expected and right also, is bizarre. To assimilate is to absorb and to incorporate the new customs into your own. Assimilation shows understanding, empathy, a desire to participate and exchange and to contribute to the new land. If one doesn't want to participate and function in a fully operational manner in a land other than that in which one was born and or raised, then don't move there - no matter the circumstances.

When one moves to a new country, there is a time of adjustment for all. While the newcomer is acclimatising and learning the new rules (if indeed s/he has decided that any assimilation is to be undertaken) and language, the host country is financially, ethically, politically, religiously, legally, educationally fostering that person. There is great expense in this transistion period that is often taken on by the state and by the people of that new host country.

If I visit the home of another, it is the least that I can do, and the bare minimum of courtesy, to respect their home as theirs and not to behave in a manner that is disrespectful of their customs or property. I should not demand that they capitulate to my habits, nor ought I expect them to speak my language in preference to their own, nor worship my god nor acquiesce to my political or cultural demands whilst I stay under their roof. Further, if I desire to have this family foster me, take me under their roof permanently, to adopt me, as it were, I must adhere to their home rules and customs, because that is what it is to be a civilised person with good manners and a desire to participate in another's home.

In what world does one ever imagine that it is appropriate to walk into another country, demand that everyone there bow to a new god, change their politics to suit the newcomer, support them on their terms, and not feel inclined to participate in conversation with the general population? WTF?

If these expectations are too extraordinary or too harsh for migrants to cope with, many counselling services in European and Western countries in general are available to help people to adjust and understand the responsibility to move through the transition lays with all parties, and that the person/s making the choice to enter a particular land must accept the consequences of that choice. Not all choices are easy, but they are choices, none the less. As adults, we accept our consequences graciously as possible and work to advance not only ourselves, but those who would help us, and those for whom we path the way to join us, don't you think?

PS. I am a migrant - fully participating, contributing and although I have experienced racist comments I have managed to develop a healthy network of friends and colleagues here and overseas, like many, many successful migrants. Sometimes we look outside when we could look inside...

 

[G-Lexington]

We're #1! We're #1!

Lex

 

[ViennaExpat83]

By banning the burqa, Belgium essentially told muslims that their culture and history is stupid. Whether you agree with the wearing of the burqa or not, should not be up to governments. It is a cultural part of a people.

I mean, if they can't wear the burqa, then women shouldn't be allowed to wear a hat. It does cover up part of their hair after all, or mumu's. It covers up all of a womens body and gives no shape to a women's figure.

As for the Danish comic thing. It is actually written in their religion no picture of God or Mohammed (i forget which one) should be produced or drawn. No wear in Muslim society is one or the other drawn. The danish comic artist essentially drew Jesus taking it up the ass by another man and distributing it to a mass audience. It was culturally insensitive.

The burqa issue is very simple. You cannot have people going around with their features and body completely covered up for basic security reasons. If you dressed in huge cloak with a hood while wearing a ski mask and walked around town you would be stopped by the police, whether it was part of your religion, culture, or personal convictions.
The basic problem is anyone could be under there carrying anything they wished under the heavy robes. There have already been a few cases that illustrated this: a few terrorism suspects wanted by the police in the UK borrowed their female relatives' burqas and passports and easily flew out from Heathrow airport!

As for the cartoons -- FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION! Remember that? It's only one of the pillars of Western democracy. People don't have legally to express themselves in a way that other people find pleasant. Once you start curbing this freedom in a few cases, then a few more, you are on a slippery slope, because someone always finds something offensive.
The only curb on freedom of expression is when you call for violence against people, because that is inciting people to do something illegal. Note that some Muslim imans throughout Europe have indulged in this.
And, some Muslims themselves in Europe express extremely insensitive opinions in relation to Western culture, women, and gay people. They want other people to be forbidden from criticizing them and their culture/religion, while having complete freedom to trash other cultures and minorities. It comes down to this: a belief that Islam is superior to everything and is entitled to special rights different from those of other things and people in a Western democracy.

I have a lot more problems with people calling for and planning to murder cartoonists and writers that have offended them than I do with cartoonists and writers offending people, and this works for a cartoonist who would do his best to outrage gay people too.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Are you a troll? You've made a few posts today and I cannot understand ONE of them. They make no sense and it's not just about bad grammar either.

me go forgive ya but if not notice world lot folk is immigrants ans can use computer but if ya feel need make direct perosnals try other folk

and it a common lot country no understand much they never do anything just peel whateva out latest mag or tv dip

cheers

 

[neruda]

Not quite off topic - but there are racist Indians in India too.
Usually they claim caucasian ancestry.
Now I've opened a can of worms haven't I .......

 

[Pushyourluck]

I will never forget when I was in Turkey this bar staff/waiter person just went up to this black male customer and said "hello Ni**er" right up to his face. I had to be stopped from getting up and knocking him out.

 

[Beachguyj]

By banning the burqa, Belgium essentially told muslims that their culture and history is stupid. Whether you agree with the wearing of the burqa or not, should not be up to governments. It is a cultural part of a people.

.

A burqa is more or a religious symbol. Like someone else said, it is dangerous that if allowed any terrorist can hide in one to commit terrible crimes. If they don't like it they should move back to their country.

I've only seen a woman in a full burqa in the US a handful of times. The only time I had to interact with one (only the eyes showing) was an African American woman.

I can't even go into a bank nowadays wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses. I was told that I have to remove one or the other. I have no problem with that.

I can't imagine how women in burqas are allowed in a bank.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

europeans live many countrys past centurys wear funny hats and thing call clothes with funny walks

many countrys now live europe but not funny cause everyone europe see all before and jokes they make long gone dead

now internet and coor planet all wire up ans everyone know everything so what is populations gonna do keep selfs entertain?

it a zippy explain end of racism how kool

cue anime

so you is guy?
Yeah how guess
luck maybe

 

[Ekim23]

There's racism everywher anyway.

I wouldnt say it's better or worst in Euroep.
From my opinion, I dont see much racism this day.

And just to answer some comments, "Muslim world" doesnt mean anything, "muslim immigrants" doesnt mean anything & racism against muslims doesnt mean anything

 

[NewStart]

I think some part of Europe are more racist that others. Overall, I'd say US is a lot less racist than Europe. The holier-than-thou attitude of Europeans is quite unnerving actually, especially of the French. I know numerous black guys (muslims and non-muslims), who tore up their French passports once they got US citizenship because they couldn't bear to associate themselves with a country to deeply hypocritical. Even if you have the right credentials, but the wrong skill color (or name), changes are that you won't even be called for an interview. So much for their color blind justice.

I think Europeans are especially xenophobic where muslims are concerned. I do believe that muslims must integrated into European norms if they choose to live there, but what is lost in the European islamophobic fervor is that a lot of muslims actually do integrate quite well. A tiny minority chooses to retain their puritanical and deeply flawed interpretation, but passing out new laws directed at this minority is counter-productive.