Rebuild My Church

[Kulindahr]

Rituals and Liturgies has everything to do with Christianity.

No, they don't. Those are part of what Jesus freed us from. Love requires no rituals, and love is all that's required.

Can ritual be edifying? Certainly -- but the moment it becomes required, it becomes evil.

 

[Kulindahr]

I would encourage you to read up on the Lives of the Saints, and especially St. Francis of Assissi, by his original Biographer: St. Boniventure...I think that was the Biographer's name.

With an a -- Bonaventure. Actually, Bonaventura, before turned English.

 

[Kulindahr]

You will have to try that number with not just the Roman Catholic ,Orthodox, Anglican, and many Evangelical Lutheran Churches, and see how they will answer that one. They are the Liturgical Churches.

I know or have known a number of clergy from each who agree with the proposition. Liturgy and ritual are aids, not necessities.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Rituals and Liturgies has everything to do with Christianity.

Ritual and liturgy must not be practiced just for the sake of ritual and liturgy, though, right?

They may bring us to the sacred, but they are not of themselves sacred...

 

[Kulindahr]

Ritual and liturgy must not be practiced just for the sake of ritual and liturgy, though, right?

They may bring us to the sacred, but they are not of themselves sacred...

Yes.

I've been as close to God naked in the middle of a river with a beer in my hand and voice raised in song as during liturgy.

 

[Kulindahr]

Rituals and Liturgies are part of the entire Picture. Christian Worship was all Catholic/Byzantine/Orthodox for the first 1500 years through out all of Christiandom til the reformation, and has continued to this day while everyone else began to break off 500 years ago.

However much they're part of the picture, they're still merely human inventions put together by humans to aid humans in focusing on God. But we know from the Old Testament that ritual and liturgy can also drive people from God, so they're just a tool, to be used carefully.

 

[Kulindahr]

Most certainly not my way of thinking.

Wait -- you're disagreeing with the Old Testament???

 

[palbert]

Ritual and liturgy must not be practiced just for the sake of ritual and liturgy, though, right?

They may bring us to the sacred, but they are not of themselves sacred...

No, but they uplift, enlighten the mundane, and reveal our larger selves. They have little to do with Christianity, else other religions would eschew them.

 

[Kulindahr]

No, I am not disagreeing with the Old Testament. You will have to show me where in the Old Testament that deals with what you are saying. The way I see it, No Rituals/Liturgies means no Sacraments, ie; food for the Soul.

Ah -- that's why I specifically only referenced liturgy in my comment. The Blessed Sacrament requires nothing at all but the hands of Christ and His faithful people; the same is actually true of the rest. And they are rituals only because they follow forms given to us.

Liturgies were ordained in outline for the old covenant; none are in the New Testament. To borrow a theme from Hebrews, our liturgy is in the heavens, performed eternally by the Christ; to borrow from St. Paul, our liturgy is on the street, serving all.

 

[Kulindahr]

No, but they uplift, enlighten the mundane, and reveal our larger selves. They have little to do with Christianity, else other religions would eschew them.

A liturgy can be confining, if written poorly; guiding, if written fairly; uplifting, if written well; and magic* if written superbly.



*in a sense our fellow JUBber Criostoir would understand

 

[palbert]

Francis meant to DO Christianity, so that people would see the Gospel in one's actions, knowing from them that there is love and mercy and forgiveness......

Reached a large crowd didn't he. Those doves get around.

 

[palbert]

I think Kallipolis would understand what I have been saying concerning the Liturgies than the rest of you.

The king is risen.

 

[Kulindahr]

Reached a large crowd didn't he. Those doves get around.

He reached enough that there was concern some kingdoms wouldn't have enough warriors to fight if attacked. I think that's when the pope invented the idea of "warriors for Christ".

 

[palbert]

Warriors for Christ originated for Philip II and Richard to do the 2nd crusade;

 

[Kulindahr]

Warriors for Christ originated for Philip II and Richard to do the 2nd crusade;

They were Francis' contemporaries.

 

[Kulindahr]

nowhere in the preaching for the 2nd crusade is Francis mentioned. it would have been antithetical to everything he taught.

Precisely. Francis preached peace. The pope wanted warriors, so he invented the absurd notion that shedding blood in Jesus' name makes you a swell fellow.

 

[palbert]

Mikey you seem to want the church rebuilt but without change, whereas I think we need another Henry VIII. Or, another John Paul I.

 

[Kulindahr]

Mikey you seem to want the church rebuilt but without change, whereas I think we need another Henry VIII. Or, another John Paul I.

Several Henrys -- the US and Canada should have their own patriarch, Mexico should have its own, Central America their own, and South America another.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Institutional Church itself needs no changes. The Changes are needed in those Govern the Church from the bottom on up. The Pope is bringing back the sacredness of the Mass by fully allowing the use of Latin as it aught to be. Sure, many internal changes will not please everyone. The Church isn't about "Counting the Cost". It is not just those who Govern the Institution, but most importantly, those changes that are needed also begins with the Laity. The Church changes in an organic manner, not at the petty whims of the People who have not fully understood the Fullness of the Church through the Centuries.

So yet another pope ignores God's Apostles and does his own thing.

Where Latin is not a common language so that a majority of the people speak it fluently, to use it for worship is a sin. That's so because St. Paul says that all things are to be done for edification, and elsewhere says that if the people don't understand the language, there's no edification.

In effect, allowing the Latin mass in places where people don't speak Latin is saying that the Holy Spirit and the Apostles were and are wrong. That's not "bringing back the sacredness", it's throwing away sacredness.

You say the pope is doing this. Well, then, the pope is in rebellion against the Holy Spirit and the Apostles. His actions declare that God commits error. He says that the command of the Apostle is wrong. He is thus a false teacher.

Under this pope, the Church isn't being rebuilt, it's being infected.

 

[palbert]

Mikey - With all due respect for your belief in your Faith, I read your comments and immediately think of:

The Wheels on the Bus
(Anon. Unknown)

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
round and round,
round and round.

[major portions deleted for brevity]

The mummies on the bus say "Shush, shush, shush;
Shush, shush, shush;
Shush, shush, shush."
The mummies on the bus say "Shush, shush, shush"
all day long.

The Wheels on the Bus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To me, the mummies are the ecclesiastics. Our silence would "rebuild" nothing. And, your arguments are as circular as the wheels.