relationship with hiv+ ?

[bluedragon4]

hi guys...

we talked last nite....and i put out...i still scared and the best way just to let it go.....and he sort of " i know why you dont want me".......i felt so sorry for him.....

Never sleep with some cause you are sorry for them. He could be playing on your emotions since you are a good guy. I have so been there! Do what's right for you and not him.

 

[RicanDAB]

I am sorry sir, but I think I have got a very good reason to discriminate. It's about my personal health and well being. I am not saying those who are HIV+ should not be a full members of society. I am just saying that they should not be part of my sexual life, and I feel I have the full right to say so. And no it is not ignorant

I personally think there is a more compassionate way to express yourself with regards to your preference for not sleeping with HIV+ men. From reading your posts you appear to write in a way that seems to paint HIV+ men as lesser class citizens and I can see why gerrit feels the way he does.

we talked last nite....and i put out...i still scared and the best way just to let it go.....and he sort of " i know why you dont want me".......i felt so sorry for him.....

I agree, you should not have done it because you felt sorry for him. This was your decision and you have to live with it. I hope it is an experience for you to grow on.

 

[rollex_2000]

Rican: I mentioned several times, that I don't think they are a 'lower class' in anyway.
It's nowhere to compare but isolating a person who is in a contagious stage of tuberculosis doesn't make him/her 'lower class' citizen. The same way me promoting NO SEX between HIV+ and those who don't have HIV shouldn't be viewed as a propaganda for HIV+'s to be treated as 'lower class'.
If studies would have proved that I could catch up a HIV by just socializing with them I'd propagate for their isolation as well.

 

[luminum]

luminum I saw you wrote you weren't positive or dating or knew anyone positive. I know you are just saying what the "facts" are but it's such a different story when you're in it. I could also read a bunch of stuff that doesn't involve me and have an opinion but I much rather hear from people who have been there. I'm not saying your opinion doesn't count but it's all facts and no experience.

I suppose, but that doesn't mean that people who "lived it" and who state their opinions AS facts should go unquestioned. Can you have a safe sexual relationship with someone who has HIV? Yes, and I wrote about how and it's easy. Should HIV+ people be allowed to seek relationships with uninfected people? Some of you listed reasons why they shouldn't ("Because it's unsafe and will pass along the virus.") and I wrote about why it isn't unsafe if you take the right precaution.

No one is refuting individual issues with being in a relationship with an HIV+ partner. If rollex only wants to have bareback sex, then it's fine for him not to want to seek an HIV+ partner. If you were hurt and betrayed by someone with HIV and scared by the kind of danger he put you in by not telling you and never want to date another person with HIV, then that's fine. If holycrap just cannot get passed the looming fear of HIV contraction, then me telling him that safe sex is easy won't do much good for him anyway. All of those personal reasons, rational or irrational, are fine.

But to me, none of those reasons are valid justification for believing that HIV+ people shouldn't be allowed to seek relationships with uninfected people, because some people use condoms out of habit, some people are reassured by the effectiveness of safe sex, some HIV+ people are upfront and safe with their status and their sexual practices instead of deceptive and selfish.

In the realm of emotion, common sense means little, I know, but for the record, that's part of the truth of the situation. The human condition and abstraction is a part of the truth of life, that no matter what anyone can say or tell you about safe sex, you still won't feel safe having sex with someone who is HIV+. That's a valid part of a person's thought process. But it should be acknowledged that with the proper precautions, the objective risk in that situation is near 0. And if we're going to talk about discriminating (perhaps not maliciously) against HIV+ people, then we need to be mindful of the justifications we're using and which ones aren't going to work.

I may not like it, but there are some straight people who, even if you tell them that gay men are like everyone else, even if they see that gay men are diverse and are not 'diseased', still won't feel comfortable or accepting toward them. I can't do anything more to dissuade that fear, and I accept it as a valid and unchangeable part of someone's beliefs, but I will always point out that what they fear is different from the truth, that gay men are like everyone else and are human beings. That says something. It's the same with fear of HIV+ individuals and the reality of safe sex.

 

[RicanDAB]

Rican: I mentioned several times, that I don't think they are a 'lower class' in anyway.
It's nowhere to compare but isolating a person who is in a contagious stage of tuberculosis doesn't make him/her 'lower class' citizen. The same way me promoting NO SEX between HIV+ and those who don't have HIV shouldn't be viewed as a propaganda for HIV+'s to be treated as 'lower class'.
If studies would have proved that I could catch up a HIV by just socializing with them I'd propagate for their isolation as well.

Sorry if I was not clear in my own post, and I KNOW you said you don't think they are lower class. I simply meant to say that the way you're expressing your views gives the appearance of that. Some HIV+ individuals have not completely come to grips with their status and because of that they may be more sensitive to comments such as yours. IMHO, your comment (below) posted earlier just seems to campaign for a classification of sorts, and it only serves to disturb:

For ALL KIDS OUT THERE.. PLEASE DON'T DO ANYTHING SEXUAL WITH HIV+ person... please....
and for all HIV+s here... PLEASE NEVER ASK/EXPECT a negative person to do anything sexual with you...

I know it's your intent in your own way to increase some sort of awareness on here, but my suggestion is to also be mindful of individuals here for whom HIV is a sensitive subject.

As a general rule, if you feel you're adult enough to have sex, along with that attaches the responsibilities of knowing the risks involved in your activities and the assumptions thereof. In other words, it's not my place or anyone else's to dictate to others who should not date/have sex with who (provided they are "over 18") - you should know what you're dealing with and act accordingly.

 

[mascbiguy]

i have dated a + person for a good time, we were always open and talked about it, cause it is a part of the relationship, and we were very very careful when we had sex. and i am still neg. i know +/- couples who have been together for 10 plus years and are still +/-.

now should some one being + dictate that you will not enter a relationship is up to you. but if you really like some one i dont see why it should be a factor.

"At the end of 2003, an estimated 1,039,000 to 1,185,000 persons in the United States were living with HIV/AIDS, with 24-27% undiagnosed and unaware of their HIV infection"

that stat was taken from the CDC, which means that 1 out of 4 people you sleep with is poz and does not know it. and some lie about it cause they fear the rejection that comes along with it, as many of you have shown in your replys

the bottom line is you should treat every one as they are poz until you both go get tested

 

[gerrit]

Sorry if I was not clear in my own post, and I KNOW you said you don't think they are lower class. I simply meant to say that the way you're expressing your views gives the appearance of that.

Thanks RicanDAB.
As I mentioned before I AM HIV+ and rollex_2000 is speaking in a very hurtful manner.
I am very fortunate that I have been able to deal with my status and I know where he is coming from but one must always remember that there are others who are HIV+ that come to this board. Those who are in the early stages of their infection have a very hard time dealing with it. (I've been there) The way rollex_2000 speaks will scare people away not to mention hurt some.

To rollex_2000: I hope you stay healthy and disease free for the rest of your life and I really am sincere when I say this.
The sad part is that if and when someone like you does get inflicted with something as horrible and detrimental as HIV the end is usually swift.
Arrogance can be as deadly as ignorance.

 

[rollex_2000]

Why nobody wants to get my point?
gerrit: Imagine you are having a relationship with a hiv- person. one year... he is clear.. the second year... he is still clear.... three months past the second year-- boom the results come positive.

Now explain me what kind of feelings would you have.
If you'd rather not do that publicly feel free to drop me a PM.
I am not arrogant in my nature nor I am an ignorant.

 

[drhladnjak]

i
"At the end of 2003, an estimated 1,039,000 to 1,185,000 persons in the United States were living with HIV/AIDS, with 24-27% undiagnosed and unaware of their HIV infection"

that stat was taken from the CDC, which means that 1 out of 4 people you sleep with is poz and does not know it. and some lie about it cause they fear the rejection that comes along with it, as many of you have shown in your replys

Actually, it doesn't mean that at all. It means that 1 in 4 people who is HIV+ in the US doesn't know it. On the whole, you're looking at 1 in 300 people (roughly) in the US being HIV+. Everything else being ignored (which as I'll explain later you can't do), you're looking at a 1 in 1200 chance of sleeping with somebody who is HIV+ and doesn't know it.

Of course, you can't ignore everything else. Namely, incidence is much, much higher among men who have sex with men. Hard figures aren't easy to come by, but it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 10 in most large American cities. That means about 1 in 40 gay men are HIV+ and don't know it. Incidence is even higher in groups like black men who have sex with men (as high as 50% in certain cities!).

Interestingly, that's about the number of guys I've had sex with during my life time, which means it's fairly likely I've had sex with somebody who didn't know he was HIV+. That's why you've gotta be safe every time guys!

 

[luminum]

Why nobody wants to get my point?
gerrit: Imagine you are having a relationship with a hiv- person. one year... he is clear.. the second year... he is still clear.... three months past the second year-- boom the results come positive.

Now explain me what kind of feelings would you have.
If you'd rather not do that publicly feel free to drop me a PM.
I am not arrogant in my nature nor I am an ignorant.

You are not getting it. The majority of people who have sex are responsible enough to use condoms. Using condoms when a partner is infected with something is assumed. It seems like the idea of people using condoms to engage in sex is completely out of your perception. Fortunately, condom use is pretty common place. Heterosexuals use them to avoid pregnancy and other STD's and so do a good deal of gay men.

Do you really think that the majority of people advocating sex between HIV+ people and HIV- people were talking about unprotected sex? I doubt gerrit is demanding that he be allowed to have unprotected sex with other people. I doubt anyone would demand the "right" to have unprotected and unsafe sex with other people if they knew they had an STD.

I'm really confused as to why you don't recognize the fact that people have sex using condoms. You may not like to use condoms, as is your right, but condoms are pretty commonplace, and their use when a partner has an STD is basically a given. So when people talk about people with STD's being allowed to have sex with non-infected people, they mean having safe sex, not bareback sex. I'd be ludicrous if we were demanding that uninfected people not care about having unprotected sex with someone who was infected with an STD.

 

[rollex_2000]

Did you see me mentioning that I don't use condoms? I do use condoms. But I'd hate to use condoms while in relatinoship especially knowing that my partner is infected or even worse; not knowing if my partner carries any STD or no. If i am in relationship, again I will have my partner tested (as well as I will do the same in front of him) to be able to play widout a condom, yet .....safe.

 

[luminum]

Yes, actually, you did state that you don't use condoms because they're "way too stressful".

And I actually have no problem with you not using condoms while in a relationship. However, the points you're making that are seemingly unrelated to you and related to others demonstrate that you're still thinking that others aren't going to use condoms.

What you asked Gerrit was how he would feel if he was in a sexual relationship and three years later, his partner contracts HIV. Well, unless he suddenly decided to not use a condom with his partner, the chance of that happening through sex is basically 0. So what are you asking him? What kind of danger are you trying to convey to him? Because so long as he uses a condom and for further protection, he and his partner also use a female condom, they will be fine.

Likewise, if holycrap decided to get into a relationship with that guy, he would be fine if they practiced safe sex. And if we're talking about being in a relationship where the sex is secondary to the person you're having sex with, using a condom won't be "so awful". I can't think of a couple, gay or straight, who ever broke up because they had to use condoms.

When I was partnered, my partner and I knew we were clean but opted to use condoms anyway and the sex was great. When we broke up, it certainly wasn't because we didn't bareback.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal about barebacking is, anyway. It feels great, but is that what you're going to base a relationship off of? Hopefully not. Hopefully a person is basing their relationship off of the love they feel, not how good their genitals can feel when having sex with that person.

And using condoms doesn't mean you don't know what you're partner has. It's just insurance that if anything unfortunate did happen (such as a one night stand/mistake) that you or your won't be put at permanent risk because of a one-time mistake. If either partner eventually tells the truth and caught something, at least on top of it BOTH of them won't be infected with an STD.

And on top of that the truth of the matter is that condoms will block basically every STD. If you knew your partner was infected, you should feel reassured that the condom will stop it. The only thing it couldn't protect you from with 99.9% certainty are STDs that shed from skin-skin contact like genital herpes. But HIV is covered and cannot pass through a latex condom.

The only thing that would stop people is an unshakable fear that beyond all possibility, the virus will infect them in some miraculous way that it cannot in any scientific way or that the condom will break. The latter is a solvable fear by using a female condom as well and by the fact that condoms don't break very often. I'm not pissing on anyone because they may feel the former. Fear is fear, plain and simple, and it's nothing to feel bad about. And if you can't shake the former, then it's best not to engage in the relationship.

But others don't feel the former and they are fine with engaging in sexual activity with HIV+ individuals by having safe sex. That alone is reason enough that HIV+ people shouldn't be barred from seeking safe sexual relationships with others. Some people may still choose not to sleep with them, which is their right, but regardless, it won't be because they actual pose a significant risk of infecting them like you stated in yoru original and consecutive post, it'll be out of discomfort with the virus itself.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

To be perfectly honest, I think knowing for a fact that someone IS HIV positive does make a difference. You really need to be OK with the attendant risks and implications to relax enough to enjoy the experience.

Ideally, with proper education and gear we should be able to have safe and sexy magnetic encounters and not segregate or marginalize positive men.

A hot guy recently disclosed to me that he was positive while I was giving him a massage (I'm a sensualist). I was surprised, of course, and told him I was negative and needed time (days) to process this revelation before deciding what might happen next. He thanked me for my consideration and our paths never crossed again, so I was "off the hook" so to speak with that one, but the issue is bound to come up again and I'll have to deal with it. It's still an open question. I had a condom "malfunction" once before and I have concerns about the risk of breakage, even as a top.

Rollex_2000, I think you're being inconsistent. It you are so worried about the risk of HIV exposure, even with condoms, what the devil are you doing barebacking?

Child, a virus don't give a hoot about "trust."

Were you there at your man's dentist's office when they were sterilizing the instruments before the invasive procedures? Was the sterilization done properly?

Also, HIV tests have been known to yield false negatives.

Son, you better wrap yourself before you trap yourself.

I've loved a number of men over the years and have never fully trusted ANY of them. I trust them enough to hold my wallet while I take a condom out and put that sucker on!