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Religion, why do you believe?

Religion, Why do you believe?

  • Family background

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Fear

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Ignorance

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Hope

    Votes: 15 62.5%
  • My DNA

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • I live in the USA and it's the done thing

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24
I don't believe in any particular God, and I certainly don't believe any of the religions or mythologies that refer to such an entity are accurate (having studied mythology and religion extensively, it is quite clear to me that they are products and reflections of humanity, not the other way around). However, I accept the possibility of a creator or creators; it's just one of many. I'm simply not arrogant enough to proclaim that I am intimately aware of what it is, and certainly not what it thinks, demands, etc.

This stance represents my beliefs very well. I am of the opinion that one simply cannot KNOW of the existence of any being that cannot be physically presented. While I would certainly not claim that the lack of evidence of a higher being like God shows that it does not exist, I firmly believe that said lack of evidence does prove that its existence is unknowable. Hence, the concept of agnosticism.
 
Why do I believe? Look around yourself. How can you not believe.
 
Why do I believe? Look around yourself. How can you not believe.
Kuddos! that remark is a good one.:gogirl:


wow... you guys are puzzling... seriously ... :confused:
I look around myself at this very moment ... everything I see is manmade... including religions as read here on this forum...
Sorry I don't get the point of the "look around yourself" thing ???
 
Take a walk, Nishin. Seriously! Take a walk!! Get outside! Then look around! (!w!)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
Go out in the Wilderness, away from all our manmade world, Camp out there for 9 consecutive days, and ask God, "Where are you, show me; I don't believe that you exist? Oh, and bring along the Good Book, and read the accounts of creation during those days. After reading, allow God to speak to you, and don't be such a talker the rest of the time,

Nothing in creation is so like God as Silence.
Since Silence is the language of God, you will
hear him in that Silence.

I'm not just saying this, I have experienced it myself.

So, the fact that you hear silence when no one is around proves God exists? :confused:
 
the poll should have another category called

non of the above.
 
Eventually, after thinking I wasn't eligible to take part to the poll, I decided to vote for "familial habits"... I believe this is the main vector of transmission for religious ideas, including theisms and atheism alike, whether being by assimilation or reaction/rejection... Were I born within a muslim family, I would probably believe in Allah, were I born in a Hinduist family I would probably belive in Karma etc etc

It somehow fits my personal history and approach to religions too... although I would not label my religiosity/spirituality a belief but a plain thought out choice.



Go out in the Wilderness, away from all our manmade world, Camp out there for 9 consecutive days, and ask God, "Where are you, show me; I don't believe that you exist? Oh, and bring along the Good Book, and read the accounts of creation during those days. After reading, allow God to speak to you, and don't be such a talker the rest of the time,
Nothing in creation is so like God as Silence.
Since Silence is the language of God, you will hear him in that Silence.
I'm not just saying this, I have experienced it myself.


Keep in mind that God doesn't always speak in a human voice, but the heart (Soul) hears him in the physical Silence. Its like the Prophet Elijah, he heard God in the passing gentle breeze instead of in a thunder Storm, or in any other act of nature. God cannot be heard in a noisy environment. Our lives are too polluted with noise, such as TV, Radio, iPods, Loud music, etc. Man doesn't know how to be silent since the advent of the mass Media. God exist in all his creation, even to the smallest of his creation, the Atom.

Thank you very much for your effort in trying to explain...
To be honest I think I sorta guess what you're trying to say, but I am not convinced at all (of course that was not the point) since there could be a number of reasons or explanations for that feeling you have in said context that you're attributing to God's voice... just like one takes an empty shell to his ear and thinks he hears the sound of the tide, when it really is an echo of the blood flow within his own ear...
I have read Genesis and find it to be conflictual with so many scientifical facts it hurts... I tend to think that when a whole system's very starting point is not consistent with reality (however illusional "reality" actually is) it is hard to believe anything else subsequent to it...

Anyhow, thanks for sharing your experience, I usually have to regret having to back what another jubber said somewhere (in this thread maybe?) about believers usually avoiding dialogue on a Q&A form but it's a good thing that not everybody acts the same within a given group of people and that ideas can still be exchanged and circulate.
 
MikeyLove, the problem is I don't think anyone actually knows how scriptures are supposed to be read and understood, otherwise there wouldn't be so many different readings and interpretations around, don't you think?

My reason tells me actual words of an almighty God should (have) be(en) clear, missinterpretation-free, universal (in the sense that they should have been delivered to all humans all around the planet)...

I do not know of one official dogmatic religion that meets these three simple requisitions, so I find myself intelectually unable to give credence to any given known religion over other known religions... and don't really understand who anyone else can... I'm repeating myself but I can't get past the fact that people' religion seems mostly a matter of (geographical and environemental/cultural) birth ...

Of course some religious people "only" take inspiration from their holy books and develop their own belief systems... that is what I do myself, aknowledging my belief system is purely artificial...
 
I'm not a believer in any sense of the word. I'm also a student of religious studies, which people find strange. I don't think it is, I mean there are plenty of instructors with PhDs that teach Greek mythology and dedicate their whole lives to it. I don't think they have to believe in Zeus to have a passion.
 
Nishin, The Creation Story in the book of Genesis was never meant to be read in a literal sense, and that is what the freaking christian fundamentalists do, they take the entire Bible very literally.Yes, even the Catholic church has its share of fundamentalists, and I'm not one of them.

And yet I don't take a word of it literally at all, and I don't think the Catholics would let me in.
 
Nishin, The Creation Story in the book of Genesis was never meant to be read in a literal sense
And this is according to whom? Based on literary analysis that shows the author's intentions? I doubt it. Most liberal believers only say this in order to soften dogmas that sound awkward to hold in a 21st century world (like those who reject evolution and adhere to a creation myth). The problem is that supernatural content of the Bible even by liberal theists is taken literally at least some of the time. For example, believing that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he and God are one (if you are a Trinitarian Christian), is ritually murdered as a scapegoat for the collective sins of his species, and then resurrected from death after an interval of three days, promptly ascending, bodily, to heaven where he awaits for two millennia eavesdropping upon (and, on occasion, even answering) the simultaneous prayers of billions of beleaguered human beings, returning one day to judge the living the dead. These are literal beliefs that even the most liberal Catholic will subscribe to. Saying that some supernatural stories are not to be taken literally while others are begs the question of just what protocol of approaching this text is used to determine which supernatural claims are true and which aren't. If it comes down to faith, then the fundamentalist and the moderate are on the same level -- the only difference being that the latter is more pleasant. As far as theologically sound, they are both cherry pickers.
 
I understand. My only point was that absent some literary cues that tell the reader whether something is meant to not be taken literal, the claim that X in the Bible is not to be taken literally is merely belief -- and yours is as good as a fundamentalists. That said, there's really nothing objectively true in making the claim that Genesis is not to be taken literally, only a personal opinion/preference.
 
Religion has always been one of those things that I have had to learn to tolerate within Wollongong. I never had to deal with zealous religious types in Muswellbrook, they stuck to themselves and possibly understand not many people are willing to listen to the words of 'God.'

I know that I do not have faith in a religion, and that sits perfectly well with whatever soul I may have within me. If I were to believe in a religion it would be because I had nothing else to believe in, to be frank.
 
MikeyLove, the problem is I don't think anyone actually knows how scriptures are supposed to be read and understood, otherwise there wouldn't be so many different readings and interpretations around, don't you think?

The original audiences generally knew.
That's one reason this should be a very hard and fast rule: any church which does not educate its preachers in the original languages so that they can read most things in those languages isn't to be trusted.

My reason tells me actual words of an almighty God should (have) be(en) clear, missinterpretation-free, universal (in the sense that they should have been delivered to all humans all around the planet)...

A quick exercise in reason should tell you that such a thing is impossible.

Deliver them to all humans around the planet in the very same language, and you get confusion because not all of them speak it.
Fix that, and deliver it in the same exact text, and you get confusion because they don't all have the same culture.
Wipe out cultural distinctions, too, and deliver it in one language and one text, and you still get confusion because you have local differences in experience.
Wipe out local differences in experience... and forget about it; at that point we're talking about puppets, not human beings.

Deliver it in different text to adjust to the local language, culture, and/or experiences, and you get confusion because it's no longer the same thing.

I do not know of one official dogmatic religion that meets these three simple requisitions, so I find myself intelectually unable to give credence to any given known religion over other known religions... and don't really understand who anyone else can... I'm repeating myself but I can't get past the fact that people' religion seems mostly a matter of (geographical and environemental/cultural) birth ...

Examination of the three requisites reveals that the only way God could make a revelation that would have a decent chance of being understood as He meant it would be to a group of people with a shared experience and substantially homogeneous as to language and culture. That's one of the reasons I believe the Bible: it fits the way things would need to be to get a message across to humans as we find ourselves.

Of course some religious people "only" take inspiration from their holy books and develop their own belief systems... that is what I do myself, aknowledging my belief system is purely artificial...

And some people take inspiration from only their system, and try to assert that everything else is false....
That's pretty lame, because if there is a Creator, it stands to reason that His character is going to show up in all sorts of ways, so it would be really, really difficult to put together a religion that was totally at odds with the true one -- in fact, if I found two that were utterly, thoroughly at odds, in opposition at every point, I'd suspect the universe of being dualistic!
 
And this is according to whom? Based on literary analysis that shows the author's intentions? I doubt it. Most liberal believers only say this in order to soften dogmas that sound awkward to hold in a 21st century world (like those who reject evolution and adhere to a creation myth).

That's kind of accurate about liberal believers... but having gone to school with a number of them, I know more than a few who were dragged kicking and screaming away from literalism, by mountains and escarpments of research.

I know that the opening of Genesis was not meant to be taken literally, and I was dragged spitting and pounding to that conclusion. When I had no data to tell me anything to the contrary, that's how I believed it, and when I ran into such data I was suspicious as -- well, as hell.

But the literary types of Genesis 1 - 2 appear in various languages throughout the ancient near east... and neither of those types is anywhere near what we would think of as literal; they are, in fact, so far from it that if they understood our concept, the original hearers (those accounts were meant to be heard, not read) would regard us at daft at best for thinking the words were meant that way.

The problem is that supernatural content of the Bible even by liberal theists is taken literally at least some of the time. For example, believing that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he and God are one (if you are a Trinitarian Christian), is ritually murdered as a scapegoat for the collective sins of his species, and then resurrected from death after an interval of three days, promptly ascending, bodily, to heaven where he awaits for two millennia eavesdropping upon (and, on occasion, even answering) the simultaneous prayers of billions of beleaguered human beings, returning one day to judge the living the dead. These are literal beliefs that even the most liberal Catholic will subscribe to. Saying that some supernatural stories are not to be taken literally while others are begs the question of just what protocol of approaching this text is used to determine which supernatural claims are true and which aren't. If it comes down to faith, then the fundamentalist and the moderate are on the same level -- the only difference being that the latter is more pleasant. As far as theologically sound, they are both cherry pickers.

Ah -- the flaw here is "this text".

Even assuming you think that Moses actually put pen to surface (stylus to clay? feather to leather?) and wrote the "Books of Moses", the number of writers of the Bible is no less than two-score. Yet even if you believe that, it's plain that Moses was lifting substantial amounts, some intact, some intermingled, from previous sources; carry that observation throughout and the number of penmen is more on the order of four-score.
Writers aside, there's the matter of literary genre/type; in Genesis alone, 'Moses' used five distinct ones (that I can recall off the top of my head) -- take in the whole set of five books included under his name, and it hits eight or more.
And that's just the launch pad -- it doesn't touch the Prophets or the 'Writings', which bring new genres all their own.

Each has its own principles of interpretation, its own level of 'factualness', and that level can vary between writers (a good example is the different numbers of warriors reported at certain battles in different 'history' books; different writers regard different numbers of significant figures as important). Beyond that are different conventions in dating and even in counting.

Sometimes the writers are helpful for us late-day readers; they tell us what's a dream, what's a parable, what's a comparison, what's a symbol -- but sometimes they aren't (and even then, when we speak of "symbol" in the Bible we don't mean what the word commonly means in English). It doesn't help that they employ things which to us look like metaphors, but which to them weren't at all; it helps less that their languages were in some ways more precise than ours and in other ways less so, to the point that such simple words as "then", "and", or "the" can be misleading if translated directly across.

A very, very good rule of thumb for finding out what can be taken firmly as solid, central theological truth is to read the early church fathers, because they were the closest to the eruption of Christianity into human society, closest to the officially authorized ambassadors (the apostles). Where they -- and the next couple of generations -- agree, it's set, and that's that... which is why assent to the Trinitarian nature of the Godhead is a defining matter for being a Christian (and thusly Seventh-Day-Adventism is Christian, while Mormonism is not).
It also makes churches which ignore the church fathers highly suspect.

Anyway... didn't mean to go into lecture mode. In short, as with a body of data in any field of study, the interpretation depends on the instrument, the scale of measurement, the observer, and all that, so when dealing with a collection as large as the Bible, getting down to what is to be taken how is not a quick and simple matter -- but it isn't a totally hopeless venture.
 
WOW!, Kul!!

I'm quite impressed!! ..|

Personally, I'm drinking Brand, Dry Vermouth, Ice and Water, with a dash of salt. What are You on?? :badgrin:

I don't mean that to sound, in any way, degrading, concerning what you've posted. It's just that I've found, given the intake of "Reality Altering" substances, that I tend to become more intense, liberated, unfiltered, in my attempts to get my thoughts across! #-o

And, that's not a "Bad Thing"! In fact, I find your perspective quite illuminating!! :=D:

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
WOW!, Kul!!

I'm quite impressed!! ..|

Personally, I'm drinking Brand, Dry Vermouth, Ice and Water, with a dash of salt. What are You on?? :badgrin:

I don't mean that to sound, in any way, degrading, concerning what you've posted. It's just that I've found, given the intake of "Reality Altering" substances, that I tend to become more intense, liberated, unfiltered, in my attempts to get my thoughts across! #-o

And, that's not a "Bad Thing"! In fact, I find your perspective quite illuminating!! :=D:

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)

Tanks.

I'm "on" vanilla ice cream with fresh raspberries. :D
 
WOW! That sounds absolutely Delicious!! :drool:

Just goes to show there Must be a GOD! (group)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz :luv:
 
Even assuming you think that Moses actually put pen to surface

I wouldn’t. There is no textual basis anywhere in the Hebrew Bible or elsewhere for claiming that Moses ever wrote any of the Torah (Pentateuch). Even Bible translations admit this in their preface of the chapter.

(stylus to clay? feather to leather?)

They were most likely written on parchment, perhaps papyrus, or a combination of both much like the Dead Sea Scrolls.

and wrote the "Books of Moses", the number of writers of the Bible is no less than two-score. Yet even if you believe that, it's plain that Moses was lifting substantial amounts, some intact, some intermingled, from previous sources; carry that observation throughout and the number of penmen is more on the order of four-score.

It’s certainly clear, at least by the Documentary Hypothesis, that several sources (e.g. Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly, and so forth) and a web of redaction generated the texts we have before us.

Writers aside, there's the matter of literary genre/type; in Genesis alone, 'Moses' used five distinct ones (that I can recall off the top of my head) -- take in the whole set of five books included under his name, and it hits eight or more.
And that's just the launch pad -- it doesn't touch the Prophets or the 'Writings', which bring new genres all their own.

Each has its own principles of interpretation, its own level of 'factualness', and that level can vary between writers (a good example is the different numbers of warriors reported at certain battles in different 'history' books; different writers regard different numbers of significant figures as important). Beyond that are different conventions in dating and even in counting.

I didn’t claim that the approach was to be uniform throughout nor did I claim that there wasn’t some distinguishable manner of interpretation when taking the text in question and its context into consideration. My only point was in those claiming, by fiat, that it is somehow objectively the case that Genesis at a minimum with respect to supernatural claims – as was asserted earlier – was meant to be taken metaphorically, at least regarding its supernatural claims. What begs the question to any outsider is just what methodological protocol one is using to evaluate which supernatural stories are to be taken as true (in the literal sense) and which aren’t. If there is evidence to show the nuances of interpretation such that one is able to reasonably discern author intent on the part of how miracle references are to be seen(i.e. literal, metaphorical or otherwise), then I’ve yet to come across it or hear someone make a case for it.

A very, very good rule of thumb for finding out what can be taken firmly as solid, central theological truth is to read the early church fathers, because they were the closest to the eruption of Christianity into human society, closest to the officially authorized ambassadors (the apostles).

And so when one even begins to make an assertion like, “The Creation Story in the book of Genesis was never meant to be read in a literal sense” one would hope this belief rests on at least some historical verisimilitude regarding the interpretation by leaders of the early church. Although, it should be noted, there is a vast difference between author intent and original meaning – akin to how other, more contemporary texts are approached (e.g. the Constitution and the jurisprudence used to interpret said document).
 
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