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Religion, why do you believe?

Religion, Why do you believe?

  • Family background

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Fear

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Ignorance

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Hope

    Votes: 15 62.5%
  • My DNA

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • I live in the USA and it's the done thing

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24
Trees comes from God who created the Universe. He created all things out of nothing.

WRONG - Trees make themselves out of air, water and minerals from the soil.

Specifically tress (as do all plant life) use solar energy to convert Carbon Dioxide and Water to the hydrocarbons they're made of (giving off surplus Oxygen in the process).

Just as with human beings - no designer (intelligent, Godly or otherwise) had any hand in creating them - they are the result of evolution.

In so far as we think of air as "nothing" - photosynthesis is a neat process - allowing plants to make themselves out of mostly just water and air.
 
It finally dawned on me: you're treating "faith" as though it had to do with propositions.
The Bible's use of the word doesn't -- so you're not even talking about the same thing.

For the Bible, faith = trust, i.e. confidence, sure expectation, reliance.

To illustrate, using the Creeds: if it was about propositional truth, the Creeds would begin, "I/We believe THAT...", while in fact they begin, "I/We believe IN...", that is, put our trust in, rely on.

It's like Aladdin, in the animated film, asking, "Do you trust me?", and extending his hand.

This seems to me to be a very semantic argument.

What's the point in having trust, confidence, sure expectation and reliance on an idea you can't know is true? (eg: is unproven)

In marketing terms - the "Value" proposition of Religion as a product is obvious - eternal life, an all powerful and loving protector etc. What is missing is the slightest proof that the product delivers these benefits.

Also - this is a product that seems to engender the idea of "absolute rightness" in people - which has historically had very serious side effects (without going into long bloody details on the inquisition, anti-Jewish outcomes, religious suicide bombers etc ).

I do hope you can appreciate the logic of those of us that feel that most religions are a great force for evil - the fact that none of these have any evidence to support them being somewhat secondary to the harm they do.
 
The case Jesus makes for His own divinity in the Synoptics is strong -- it just isn't put in terms people today would recognize. For example, using the term "Son of Man" at that time in history was claiming divinity; it was considered a divine title, indicating a supernatural, heavenly being who commanded the angels and would judge the world -- thus, God.
The term is utilized insofar as Jesus expected the imminent appearance of a cosmic judge from heaven, but for him this divine figure was to be the Son of Man anticipated by the prophet Daniel (unlike Paul who attributes the title to Jesus himself). Mark 8:38 is a good example of a quote which passes the Criterion of Dissimilarity because Jesus differentiates between himself and the Son of Man.

Then there's the forgiveness of sins, which as is noted is something God alone is supposed to do, but Jesus does without a qualm, on more than one occasion almost daring others to make a fuss about it (on one of those occasions, He ties the term "Son of Man" in with that authority). In fact, it is for the claim to be divine that He is finally taken prisoner and killed.
In Matthew and Luke, especially, Jesus almost seems to be pleading with people to figure it out: He advances for Himself a whole multitude of kinds of authority which are held to belong to God alone, pushing the conclusion that He is God.
You're projecting your own beliefs onto the text at this point. Jesus is being used as the sacrificial lamb, there's not even one reference (unless you want to make a huge leap of, dare I say, faith on this) where the text connects Jesus and God as one; this is why the Comma Johanneum stands as the only explicit reference to the Trinity in the entire New Testament and curiously only comes centuries after that epistle in which it appears in is written.

But again, we're moving far and beyond the main point here. You have with you the problem of demonstrating these assertions as being true and the only thing you can come up with is that the only logical conclusion is that he is in fact correct. Prove it.

BTW -- what's this "Heaven's Gate crowd"?
They were a popular lot back in '97. Wikipedia has the 4-1-1 on the whole thing.

You keep jumping around...
The question was about distinguishing between two claims; I noted that one of those doesn't even advance an assertion of actually being true -- so since the other one does, it's the only choice.
No, no, no. One -- and I'll even concede for the sake of argument that you're entirely correct -- doesn't advance an assertion of actually being true. This in no way validates another that does. Absolutely not. That you are convinced by mere assertions, that's your priviledge. But when you are arguing against my definition that faith is the feeling of truth sans evidence (which is why they call it "faith" and not "knowledge") you have the onus of demonstrating what is false about the statement and then presenting here for all of us the so-called evidence that validates your beliefs. Thus far you have presented zero evidence beside things and events that you personally experienced and happened to convince you. These are anecdotes, not evidence. Try again or I'm going to have to terminate this discussion because we're getting nowhere.

For history, documents are evidence.
For many matters in court, for that matter, documents are evidence.
Exactly, and the only thing you'd be able to demonstrate based on the documentation that we have is that there probably was a man named Jesus, that he was a moral teacher of some sort, and that he asserted a bunch of stuff. The gigantic leap that you make is that he must be right because no other person does this (which is false, except when maybe comparing it to Greek mythology). The things we can conclude based on these documents have limitations. You're making unwarranted leaps based on what we have on record.

And personal experience not explainable by something else, when totally unexpected and unsought, conforming tightly to a description of what can be expected in a situation, is also evidence.
No. It isn't. I can already tell you didn't watch one second of the clip I referenced or else we wouldn't be having this discusssion. Not only do paranormal explanation fall under turf of being more improbable than not (as most "evidence" offered tends to be anecdotal; this may change but only when sufficient and rigorous evidence is produced), they're unverifiable. Now you might perhaps respond with 'Oh but I happen to have witnessed it myself so I verified it' but this is also problematic. Human perception is too prone to interpretation for us to rely on them, which is why scientists do things like double-blind studies to prevent biases and beliefs from being projected onto the thing being examined. I know you won't click this link, but I strongly recommend reading this article: Why We Need Science: “I saw it with my own eyes” Is Not Enough. The part about George Washington's death should give you at least some pause. The video on anecdotes can also be found here -- for what it's worth. If all you have is anecdotes about spooky experiences or whatnot, then we're done here.
 
Historically, then, what is evidence?

Oh come on Kuli you know the answer to this, you just don't want to admit it because there is none to support the idea of God.

For a great deal of ancient history, the evidence we have is documents -- and nothing else. That's all we have to tell us there ever was such a person as Socrates; how do we know he wasn't a figment of Aristotle's imagination, invented for some reason of his own? For that matter, what evidence do we have for Aristotle, save the words of others?
In historical terms, we have more certainty about the life of Jesus of Nazareth than we do about either of those Greek thinkers, yet we take them as fact, while many dispute even his existence! The documents attesting to his life are much closer in time (less than a generation away, for the first) than those for the two aforementioned Greeks, yet how many people claim they never existed?

And to many scientists, the universe is filled with evidence of a Creator -- so I have to wonder if what's at issue here is a subjective determination of what constitutes "evidence".

Historically speaking there’s a lot more than documents to support - say the existence of Julius Caesar. You're just picking and choosing historical people then implying that they are all more nebulous than Christ. There is plenty of evidence that a whole slew of historical figures in antiquity existed, and none that Christ did. There are no contemporary accounts of him, no statues, no works written by Christ, in fact the only place he's even mentioned is in the Bible, a biased source.

When dealing with historical documents there are only probabilities. Is it probable that “Gallic Wars” was written By Julius Caesar? Well, we know Rome existed, there’s plenty of material evidence that bolster the probability that Julius Caesar existed. There’s also material evidence that there were wars between Rome and Gaul. Does that mean “Gallic Wars” is absolutely accurate and true? No.

There exists the question of motive. Why did Caesar write “Gallic Wars?” Was he attempting to write impartial history? Was it propaganda? What would Caesar benefit from having “Gallic Wars” accepted as truth?

This argument over documents only occurs because there’s only the Bible and nothing else that makes the assertion that Christ even lived, let alone was god. Still the believers will insist.

And yet, most Christians will apply the other empirical standard when it comes to other religious documents. The Book of Mormon for example. There are plenty of Christians who will vociferously assert that Joseph Smith was not inspired by god. Can they prove that, no. Just like they can’t prove that their religious text is inspired by god. Yet one is absolutely true and the other isn’t, and both sets of believers will rely on the same argument in favor of their belief.

The authenticity or age of the texts is a moot, who wrote them and when is beside the point entirely. It’s the assertions they make that are the issue, and there is not nor will there ever be any evidence whatsoever of divinity. There can’t be, because the moment we can empirically describe god, God as we know him ceases to exist. There’s your faith for you, belief in something that is inherently beyond evidence.
 
If something is Evident, then Faith is not required. Faith is the acceptance of something that can not be measured, quantified, replicated, or proven. Faith is the giving over, of one's self, to something that can not be fully comprehended within our limited bounds of knowledge. And, yet, we know/feel that it is there.

Faith, and Hope, go hand in hand. Just because you can not touch them, does not make either invalid. Without them, what would be the point of getting up tomorrow? Intangible does not equal non-existent, nor without merit.

Can you definitively describe "Good"?

A friend of mine, who was in AA, described his "Higher Power" as the reflections seen in the chrome bumpers, and hub caps, of cars. You could touch the chrome, but not the images. Were they, therefore, not there?

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
People believed that War of the Worlds was a programme about a real invasion of Martians when it was broadcast on the radio. Their sincere efforts to make sense of the show resulted in the conclusion that, "based on the facts," the world was under attack from an alien civilization. It had, for them, all the dirty marks of real people telling a real story.

So without debating what the meaning of "is" is, we can certainly debate the meaning of what a "document" is.

In passing, having faith in the insights of imagination calls for an entirely different approach than having faith in the teachings of an individual real entity, divine or otherwise.
 
If something is Evident, then Faith is not required. Faith is the acceptance of something that can not be measured, quantified, replicated, or proven. Faith is the giving over, of one's self, to something that can not be fully comprehended within our limited bounds of knowledge. And, yet, we know/feel that it is there.

Faith, and Hope, go hand in hand. Just because you can not touch them, does not make either invalid. Without them, what would be the point of getting up tomorrow? Intangible does not equal non-existent, nor without merit.

Can you definitively describe "Good"?

A friend of mine, who was in AA, described his "Higher Power" as the reflections seen in the chrome bumpers, and hub caps, of cars. You could touch the chrome, but not the images. Were they, therefore, not there?

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
There are somethings I agree with what you said. Faith, like I have said before, is a trust that you impart in something which then gives you the feeling of truth (and perhaps elation) all while absent of evidence (convincing experiences notwithstanding). I would personally make the claim that faith does not provide a useful method of understanding given that it can be applied to anything, often times conflicting with someone else's beliefs.

That said, if one want to pursue it as a matter of virtue then that is one's priviledge. Some may find merit in faith because it gives them a feeling of warmth inside; it could work similar to a placebo where it is entirely barren of medicinal content and yet generates (or helps the brain to generate) blissful emotionality. Beliefs, of course, are a means that inform behavior and emotion and so it really does matter what people believe and as a matter of personal opinion I would perfer that people interact more rationally devoid of dogmas all the while open to transformative experiences without needing to falsely attribute them to ancient traditions that are unverified and unverifiable as they stand.

Faith and hope, while they may be bound together by many, are exclusive of one another. I as a secular person may hope for a better tomorrow. It is much different that I actually believe such a thing is going to happen. As far as defining things like "good" I don't know if that is an apt example that you'd want to bring up considering that it is an abstract concept you are referencing and God isn't something that's usually presented as such. Specular reflection is something that can be observed and measured. No one is arguing that intangibility means that it doesn't exist. Only that if such supernatural phenomenons exist, faith is not a conduit which provide us with the means by which to conclusively demonstrate its reality. This is why Kulindahr has to take huge leaps of non sequiturs in order to make his case.
 
Faith, and believing Fiction, are two, very separate, things.

Accepting Fiction, as Truth, is being "Hood Winked"! #-o :slap:

Having Faith is having the confidence to step into the Unknown. Faith is not about Gullibility. (Though Religion often is!) Faith is about Trust, in your own ability, to step beyond Yourself, and aspire to a Higher calling! Faith is Inspiration!

Whether they may by True, or not, the Holy Scriptures, of ALL Religions, attempt to teach Us that we can be "More" than what we expect! Faith is about inspiration and aspiration. Faith is about becoming "More" than what we currently are! Faith is about expanding our horizons. Faith is about self improvement. Faith is a perspective, not a presumption.

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
Faith, and believing Fiction, are two, very separate, things.

Accepting Fiction, as Truth, is being "Hood Winked"! #-o :slap:

Having Faith is having the confidence to step into the Unknown. Faith is not about Gullibility. (Though Religion often is!) Faith is about Trust, in your own ability, to step beyond Yourself, and aspire to a Higher calling! Faith is Inspiration!

Whether they may by True, or not, the Holy Scriptures, of ALL Religions, attempt to teach Us that we can be "More" than what we expect! Faith is about inspiration and aspiration. Faith is about becoming "More" than what we currently are! Faith is about expanding our horizons. Faith is about self improvement. Faith is a perspective, not a presumption.

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
That's all very motivational and I'm glad you're a very positive person, but you have morphed the original definition of not only dictionaries and encyclopedias but of religious institutions.

Sources: thefreedictionary.com, merriam-webster.com, and dictionary.com
Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. The word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. As with "trust", faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes, and is used conversely for a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."

...

Faith is often used in a religious context, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and/or said being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things.

Faith is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.
 
That's all very motivational and I'm glad you're a very positive person, but you have morphed the original definition of not only dictionaries and encyclopedias but of religious institutions.

Sources: thefreedictionary.com, merriam-webster.com, and dictionary.com

Uh ... perhaps I'm really dense, but I don't see what you've posted as being contradictory to what I've been trying to say ... :confused: (group)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
Uh ... perhaps I'm really dense, but I don't see what you've posted as being contradictory to what I've been trying to say ... :confused: (group)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
That faith in general is the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true. Given that it's not a methodology of ascertaining fact from fiction, it can certainly lead one to become gullible and believe fictions.
 
That faith in general is the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true. Given that it's not a methodology of ascertaining fact from fiction, it can certainly lead one to become gullible and believe fictions.

Aw ... now I "see", said the blind man, to the deaf lady, who wasn't even listening! :lol: (And I do mean that in jest!)

Faith, Truth, and Dogma are not the same things, at all.

Dogma (Religion) preaches (possible) fiction as Truth. If anyone accepts that, without question, then they are, indeed, quite gullible. #-o

Truth can be verified, replicated, and proven. Science, in it's purest form, has taught us that beyond question. ..|

Faith, however, is a more mercurial thing ... it can be "outside" of Dogma, and maybe not quite True, but it's still there and very influential. Faith is not about Truth, per se. Faith is more of a "sense". Faith is not something that can be nailed down and quantified. Faith is not an absolute. Faith is an abstraction, at best. (group)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)
 
Faith, however...Faith is not about Truth, per se. Faith is more of a "sense". Faith is not something that can be nailed down and quantified. Faith is not an absolute. Faith is an abstraction, at best. (group)

Keep smilin'!! :kiss:(*8*)
Chaz ;)

On the one hand I agree, on the other people routinely assert that their faith is not only tangible truth, but the only tangible truth. Which kind of muddies the waters.

There are plenty of people who assert that their faith is not only absolute truth in an empirical sense, but that it trumps any attempt to impeach it, just 'cause; and these people have taken their faith to war over and over and over.

And this is quite common. It's why there is this argument in the first place.

In fact, I'd assert that the majority of people of faith not only insist their faith is corporeal, but will accept any attempt to bend others to it.

Such is the history of religion.

Wouldn't it be nice if all people of faith shared your definition.
 
On the one hand I agree, on the other people routinely assert that their faith is not only tangible truth, but the only tangible truth. Which kind of muddies the waters.

There are plenty of people who assert that their faith is not only absolute truth in an empirical sense, but that it trumps any attempt to impeach it, just 'cause; and these people have taken their faith to war over and over and over.

And this is quite common. It's why there is this argument in the first place.

In fact, I'd assert that the majority of people of faith not only insist their faith is corporeal, but will accept any attempt to bend others to it.

Such is the history of religion.

Wouldn't it be nice if all people of faith shared your definition.

The same can be said of a political ideology. Is the culprit the political ideology, a religious culture, or the fanaticism of the person who espouses such beliefs?

From my experience on this forum it is my understanding, that the religious fanatic, and those atheist fanatics, who spend their life abusing theists, make good bed fellows.

Narrow minded fanaticism in all its manifestations is a sad indictment on human behaviour, that might well encourage us to be patient, with opinions that do not sit well with our own beliefs.
 
The same can be said of a political ideology. Is the culprit the political ideology, a religious culture, or the fanaticism of the person who espouses such beliefs?

From my experience on this forum it is my understanding, that the religious fanatic, and those atheist fanatics, who spend their life abusing theists, make good bed fellows.

Narrow minded fanaticism in all its manifestations is a sad indictment on human behavior, that might well encourage us to be patient, with opinions that do not sit well with our own beliefs.

Whatever the sins of others the sins of the faithful remain their own. One wrong is not mitigated by others who might commit the same crime.

If you wish to argue the sins of people who do not believe. that's another topic, and it does not mitigate the sins of the faithful in any respect.

If to err is human, and to emulate god is the road to salvation, then it's a sad indictment of religion that it cannot stop it's own believers from behaving in a human fashion.

Are not the followers of Christ called to a higher standard?

Yes, yes, "they're just human."

What value a religion that cannot convince it's own followers?

Does God exist or not?
 
Whatever the sins of others the sins of the faithful remain their own. One wrong is not mitigated by others who might commit the same crime.


We agree.


If you wish to argue the sins of people who do not believe. that's another topic, and it does not mitigate the sins of the faithful in any respect.

The same reasoning applies, whether we are discussing, theists or atheists.

One is not more perfect, than the other.

If to err is human, and to emulate god is the road to salvation, then it's a sad indictment of religion that it cannot stop it's own believers from behaving in a human fashion.

Then we should reason that the imperfect theist, is more imperfect, than the atheist who belittles those who do not accept his opinions? Such perfectly, perfect logic.

Are not the followers of Christ called to a higher standard?

Of course. But who is perfect? A life of faith is a process of changing ones self, and not an event. One does not become perfect over night. Rather the human being remains imperfect, so as to learn how to become perfect. It is in the journey of faith that we reveal our will to change.

Yes, yes, "they're just human."

Yes, just like you. Imperfect human life. Don't you err?

What value a religion that cannot convince it's own followers?

When did you last meet a perfect human being?

Does God exist or not?

You are asking the question. I presume from your easy willingness to dictate your criticisms of others, that you have the answer.
 
If to err is human, and to emulate god is the road to salvation, then it's a sad indictment of religion that it cannot stop it's own believers from behaving in a human fashion.

Are not the followers of Christ called to a higher standard?

Yes, yes, "they're just human."

I never got tired, when working with youth at church, of responding to the excuse, "I'm only human" with something along the lines of "Since when?"
Christians are supposed to be hooked into a circuit that gives them something a bit more than "only human to work with. Not that it's a cure-all; that warning is given -- so that the fact that its followers still behave in human fashion isn't much of an indictment; the indictment comes in only if they behave in such human fashion as to be indistinguishable from the rest.

Does God exist or not?

One of my philosophy professors used to answer that, "No -- God IS".
 
The term is utilized insofar as Jesus expected the imminent appearance of a cosmic judge from heaven, but for him this divine figure was to be the Son of Man anticipated by the prophet Daniel (unlike Paul who attributes the title to Jesus himself). Mark 8:38 is a good example of a quote which passes the Criterion of Dissimilarity because Jesus differentiates between himself and the Son of Man.

Perhaps, but that's also a rhetorical device for speaking of one's self.

You're projecting your own beliefs onto the text at this point. Jesus is being used as the sacrificial lamb, there's not even one reference (unless you want to make a huge leap of, dare I say, faith on this) where the text connects Jesus and God as one; this is why the Comma Johanneum stands as the only explicit reference to the Trinity in the entire New Testament and curiously only comes centuries after that epistle in which it appears in is written.

Jesus claimed to forgive sins.
He knew that everyone believed that only God could forgive sins.
Therefore He was claiming to be God.

That's very plain in Mark.

No, no, no. One -- and I'll even concede for the sake of argument that you're entirely correct -- doesn't advance an assertion of actually being true. This in no way validates another that does. Absolutely not. That you are convinced by mere assertions, that's your priviledge. But when you are arguing against my definition that faith is the feeling of truth sans evidence (which is why they call it "faith" and not "knowledge") you have the onus of demonstrating what is false about the statement and then presenting here for all of us the so-called evidence that validates your beliefs. Thus far you have presented zero evidence beside things and events that you personally experienced and happened to convince you. These are anecdotes, not evidence. Try again or I'm going to have to terminate this discussion because we're getting nowhere.

My question was, given a Creator, what do we have that looks like a communication from him? The Greek gods don't cut it; they're really little different from what can be found in Marvel comics. So with the evidence of the materials themselves, one ends up with the Bible.
That's my point, no matter how much you try to stretch it to something else.

Exactly, and the only thing you'd be able to demonstrate based on the documentation that we have is that there probably was a man named Jesus, that he was a moral teacher of some sort, and that he asserted a bunch of stuff. The gigantic leap that you make is that he must be right because no other person does this (which is false, except when maybe comparing it to Greek mythology). The things we can conclude based on these documents have limitations. You're making unwarranted leaps based on what we have on record.

From what we have -- and we have with a high degree of certainty the actual words of Jesus -- he couldn't be "a moral teacher of some sort". On that, the "Lord, lunatic, or liar" crowd (I believe that trichotomy comes from C. S. Lewis, BTW) is quite right: no one who claims the things Jesus did is sufficiently sane to be considered a moral teacher.
And in fact no one else does make the claims He did: to forgive sins, to raise the dead, to return from the dead himself.
And in truth, what we would expect in a communication from a Creator would be claims no one else dared make -- indeed, claims no one else really considered before.

No. It isn't.

Yes, it is. Witnesses go to court to "offer evidence", a term used virtually interchangeably with "give testimony".

Not only do paranormal explanation fall under turf of being more improbable than not (as most "evidence" offered tends to be anecdotal; this may change but only when sufficient and rigorous evidence is produced), they're unverifiable.

This is a matter of faith, right here, when you assert that paranormal explanations are more improbable. They may be unverifiable, but that doesn't make them more improbable -- after all, the probability of a hole in someone's roof being due to a rock falling from the sky didn't change suddenly when scientists finally realized that rocks do fall from the sky; it remained what it was before.

Now you might perhaps respond with 'Oh but I happen to have witnessed it myself so I verified it' but this is also problematic. Human perception is too prone to interpretation for us to rely on them, which is why scientists do things like double-blind studies to prevent biases and beliefs from being projected onto the thing being examined. I know you won't click this link, but I strongly recommend reading this article: Why We Need Science: “I saw it with my own eyes” Is Not Enough. The part about George Washington's death should give you at least some pause. The video on anecdotes can also be found here -- for what it's worth. If all you have is anecdotes about spooky experiences or whatnot, then we're done here.

Yes, people can be fooled. That's why Paul says to have every interpretation of a 'speaking in tongues' verified by confirmation, and if there's no confirmation, to reject it.
That doesn't mean that everything has to be reproducible. Prophecy isn't reproducible, but when there are dozens upon dozens of prophecies made before someone comes along, and every last one of them matches that person's life, the result is evidence. Miracles aren't reproducible, but when millions of people testify of them, and a great many of those match a pattern set down before, the result is evidence.
No, it isn't laboratory evidence, but it's sufficient evidence that jurists who have set out to prove that Jesus never lived, or at least couldn't have been what is said of Him, have turned 180 from that position.
 
Historically speaking there’s a lot more than documents to support - say the existence of Julius Caesar. You're just picking and choosing historical people then implying that they are all more nebulous than Christ. There is plenty of evidence that a whole slew of historical figures in antiquity existed, and none that Christ did. There are no contemporary accounts of him, no statues, no works written by Christ, in fact the only place he's even mentioned is in the Bible, a biased source.

I wasn't picking and choosing; I deliberately took two ancient thinkers most people have a clue existed -- but, we have no actual evidence they did, do we?

I wouldn't expect any contemporary accounts of Christ; except to people whose lives He impacted, He was a throw-away.

This argument over documents only occurs because there’s only the Bible and nothing else that makes the assertion that Christ even lived, let alone was god. Still the believers will insist.

And yet, most Christians will apply the other empirical standard when it comes to other religious documents. The Book of Mormon for example. There are plenty of Christians who will vociferously assert that Joseph Smith was not inspired by god. Can they prove that, no. Just like they can’t prove that their religious text is inspired by god. Yet one is absolutely true and the other isn’t, and both sets of believers will rely on the same argument in favor of their belief.

There's a massive gulf between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, archaeologically: one has massive amounts of archaeology verifying numerous details; the other has... none.
I almost became a Mormon at one point, but the Conan-the-Barbarian style Book of Mormon oozed with accounts of civilizations that should have left massive ruins to be excavated, and the fact that there were none was one of the items that stayed me.

The authenticity or age of the texts is a moot, who wrote them and when is beside the point entirely. It’s the assertions they make that are the issue, and there is not nor will there ever be any evidence whatsoever of divinity. There can’t be, because the moment we can empirically describe god, God as we know him ceases to exist. There’s your faith for you, belief in something that is inherently beyond evidence.

Utter nonsense: documents written while there are still eyewitnesses alive to say, "Whoa!" are far more reliable than documents written later. Without that degree of credibility, the assertions are meaningless. Take the main premise of the New Testament, the Resurrection of Christ: if it was set down no earlier than two centuries after Pontius Pilate was Procurator in Judea, then the weight of credence one ought to give is about zip, and it deserves little other than a scoffing "Ha!" -- but if it was set down while people who lived in Jerusalem at the time and could argue the point were still out and about, then one has to say, "Hm."

Why should God cease if we managed to empirically describe Him? That's an a priori assumption of major proportions!

The only reason that God is (would be) "beyond evidence" is that He chooses to be so; as the Bible says, "You are a God who hides Yourself".
 
Christians are supposed to be hooked into a circuit that gives them something a bit more than "only human to work with. Not that it's a cure-all; that warning is given -- so that the fact that its followers still behave in human fashion isn't much of an indictment; the indictment comes in only if they behave in such human fashion as to be indistinguishable from the rest.
It is exactly this attitude which puts me over the edge when a Christian theist levels a charge of arrogance against an atheist.
One of my philosophy professors used to answer that, "No -- God IS".
How is that any more insightful than if I were to say, "There is no god." He substituted a rhetorical flourish for an answer.

I wasn't picking and choosing; I deliberately took two ancient thinkers most people have a clue existed -- but, we have no actual evidence they did, do we?

I wouldn't expect any contemporary accounts of Christ; except to people whose lives He impacted, He was a throw-away.
If you wouldn't expect contemporary accounts then you cannot claim the absence of contemporary "debunkers" makes Christianity more probable. But then you do:
There's a massive gulf between the Bible and the Book of Mormon, archaeologically: one has massive amounts of archaeology verifying numerous details; the other has... none.
I almost became a Mormon at one point, but the Conan-the-Barbarian style Book of Mormon oozed with accounts of civilizations that should have left massive ruins to be excavated, and the fact that there were none was one of the items that stayed me.

Utter nonsense: documents written while there are still eyewitnesses alive to say, "Whoa!" are far more reliable than documents written later. Without that degree of credibility, the assertions are meaningless. Take the main premise of the New Testament, the Resurrection of Christ: if it was set down no earlier than two centuries after Pontius Pilate was Procurator in Judea, then the weight of credence one ought to give is about zip, and it deserves little other than a scoffing "Ha!" -- but if it was set down while people who lived in Jerusalem at the time and could argue the point were still out and about, then one has to say, "Hm."
I'm pretty sure the Mormons have not faithfully preserved all of the records of Joe Smith's early objectors. Well, I bet they have the objectors, but not the skeptics. And apart from the leadership of their nascent movement, no one else would have cared at that point. It is also so with Christianity. Who would have bothered to debunk it in the early days? Who goes around today researching every fringe claimant to the paranormal and systematically debunking them? There are bigger fish to fry.

Why should God cease if we managed to empirically describe Him? That's an a priori assumption of major proportions!
I agree with you here. In fact that sets the stage for the whole conversation. But I think you gave this answer in reply to a question on a different point.
The only reason that God is (would be) "beyond evidence" is that He chooses to be so; as the Bible says, "You are a God who hides Yourself".

There no difference in the amount or quality of archæological evidence "corroborating" Christianity or Buddhism or animism or paganism. But again we're back to the periodic table - it isn't evidence for the hydrogen atom. All we know from the archæological record is that real people have worshipped different and contradictory, often mutually untenable, faiths for a very long time. We have evidence of worshippers, not of the divine!

But then in a quick 180, you try to cover that contingency by saying that a god can opt out of leaving traces. . We're now at the point where the biblical God could be hiding away from our experience, in another dimension, taking occasional swipes at our realm from a position perpendicular to all of our dimensions, with any after-effects of that presence quickly being swept away into this "meta-perpendicular" space. The only way any god can be beyond any kind of evidence is if he is beyond any kind of existence.

(in which case she is not "apart" from the universe as you assert when talking about its "creation" from beyond.)

What is the difference between a god who can leave no traces, no record, no shadows of interaction with the real universe, lurking as a futile impotent shadow, and no god at all?
 
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