Repeal of Obamacare: We'll be great after thirty-eight!

[Centexfarmer]

It isn't speaking to your narrative, while refusing to accept the narrative of others.

So of course not.

 

[justdra]

I've been at the same job for almost 20 years and believe me my premiums have yet to go down. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world, each year there is an excuse for raising premiums, mainly we are told medicine and medical cost are increasing so we have to increase our premiums for the good of the company. Also, even where I work, people still go to the ER and claim indigent care when the bill comes....and they get it! One guy I work with has a wife (who works off the books) and has 2 kids, owns a double-wide, the land it is on, 2 paid for vehicles, a motorcycle and a 4 wheeler and they get on average $7000-$8000 a year back in refunds but doesn't want to pay his hospital bill, so its not always those who don't have insurance who don't pay, even those with insurance don't want to pay.

 

[Centexfarmer]

^ Sound like you work at Walmart.

Seriously.

 

[cm98059]

Thirty-two of the thirty-three developed nations have universal health care, with the United States being the lone exception [1]. The following list, compiled from WHO sources where possible, shows the start date and type of system used to implement universal health care in each developed country [2]. Note that universal health care does not imply government-only health care, as many countries implementing a universal health care plan continue to have both public and private insurance and medical providers.

Country Start Date of Universal Health Care System Type
Click links for more source material on each country’s health care system.
Norway 1912 Single Payer
New Zealand 1938 Two Tier
Japan 1938 Single Payer
Germany 1941 Insurance Mandate
Belgium 1945 Insurance Mandate
United Kingdom 1948 Single Payer
Kuwait 1950 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Bahrain 1957 Single Payer
Brunei 1958 Single Payer
Canada 1966 Single Payer
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Austria 1967 Insurance Mandate
United Arab Emirates 1971 Single Payer
Finland 1972 Single Payer
Slovenia 1972 Single Payer
Denmark 1973 Two-Tier
Luxembourg 1973 Insurance Mandate
France 1974 Two-Tier
Australia 1975 Two Tier
Ireland 1977 Two-Tier
Italy 1978 Single Payer
Portugal 1979 Single Payer
Cyprus 1980 Single Payer
Greece 1983 Insurance Mandate
Spain 1986 Single Payer
South Korea 1988 Insurance Mandate
Iceland 1990 Single Payer
Hong Kong 1993 Two-Tier
Singapore 1993 Two-Tier
Switzerland 1994 Insurance Mandate
Israel 1995 Two-Tier
United States 2014? Insurance Mandate

Will the United States join this list in 2014?

[1] Roughly 15% of Americans lack car insurance coverage, so the US clearly has not yet achieved universal health care. There is no universal definition of developed or industrialized nations. For this list, those countries with UN Human Development Index scores above 0.9 on a 0 to 1 scale are considered developed.

[2] The dates given are estimates, since universal health care arrived gradually in many countries. In Germany for instance, government insurance programs began in 1883, but did not reach universality until 1941. Typically the date provided is the date of passage or enactment for a national health care Act mandating insurance or establishing universal health insurance.

http://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/

Mexico has Universal Healthcare too, Why is it a problem for some people, that there are people who think that every American should have healthcare, like the residents of other nations have enjoyed for years. Maybe some people want Americas to be sick, weak, and vulnerable, so they cannot fight back against oppression. So they cannot fight back when their money, property, jobs, and education are taken away from them. I will go as far as to state flat out, that the United States is well on it's way to becoming a third world nation.

http://joyinthisjourney.com/2012/08/who-is-more-worthy-of-american-aid/
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/08/10-signs-us-is-becoming-third-world.html
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/salas.356/usa_vs._world
http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2013/04/07/america-has-become-a-third-world-nation/
http://seekingalpha.com/article/309501-how-the-u-s-is-quickly-becoming-a-third-world-country-part-1/
http://www.project-syndicate.org/blog/america--slouching-towards-third-world-status
http://mapscroll.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-us-becoming-third-world-country.html

 

[T-Rexx]

I've been at the same job for almost 20 years and believe me my premiums have yet to go down. It doesn't matter what is going on in the world, each year there is an excuse for raising premiums, mainly we are told medicine and medical cost are increasing so we have to increase our premiums for the good of the company. Also, even where I work, people still go to the ER and claim indigent care when the bill comes....and they get it! One guy I work with has a wife (who works off the books) and has 2 kids, owns a double-wide, the land it is on, 2 paid for vehicles, a motorcycle and a 4 wheeler and they get on average $7000-$8000 a year back in refunds but doesn't want to pay his hospital bill, so its not always those who don't have insurance who don't pay, even those with insurance don't want to pay.

The USA has by far the most bloated and inefficient health care delivery system in the world.

That's not hyperbole. We spend more than twice as much per capita as the next most expensive nation. And yet, 26% of Americans aged 18 to 64 have no coverage whatsoever. None. More than a quarter of our working population will likely be facing bankruptcy if some accident or serious illness should befall them. It is not a coincidence that 70% of all bankruptcies in America happen because someone got sick.

Among those who do have insurance, the coverage is often spotty. If you suffer from some kind of mental illness, for example, your insurance probably does not cover it (insurance companies in America do not regard psychiatric problems as "disease"). You may not be covered for an emergency room visit, for example, if your insurance company decides after the fact that your problem was not emergent. (No matter that there was no way of knowing the seriousness of the situation before the evaluation was completed).

Insurance companies don't like to pay claims. So, they employ armies of people to comb through claims to find some excuse not to pay, and they try to stack the deck in their favor. (For example, a claim may have a space for the social security number three times on the same page. If the SS is only filled out in two of the three spaces, the insurance company will not pay on the grounds that they were not sure of the SS#.) And hospitals and doctors employ armies of people skilled at billing in ways designed to encourage payment. It is medical insurance warfare, and the conflict escalates every year.

There was a time when it was possible to operate a medical practice with just a doctor and a nurse/receptionist. Today, there is a doctor, a nurse, and half a dozen billing people. It is an extremely inefficient way to deliver health care.

Moreover, there is almost no such thing as market forces in American health care. This is not capitalism. Your local hospital likely enjoys a monopoly. When you are having chest pain, you don't go to the hospital 30 miles away that is having a special on myocardial infarctions. The payer, your insurance company, is not the same party that is utilizing the service, you. There is no incentive for the insurance company to cut costs - they just raise your rates. There is no incentive for you, the patient, not to demand the most expensive service, however questionably appropriate medically. After all, you're not paying the bill.

This stupid system is wrecking the American economy. It robs us of productivity (all those ancillary people could be doing better things than checking boxes on forms). It drains resources unnecessarily. It causes millions of bankruptcies every year. It gives us the world's most expensive healthcare, without giving us the world's best healthcare.

Republicans designed Obamacare, then felt obligated to abandon support for it when the president agreed to implement it. It is a rather terrible plan for healthcare in America. The only thing worse would be to do nothing at all, which is what Republicans now propose. Their only approach to everything is to not do whatever the president wants - even when they have proposed it.

 

[CowboyBob]

^Excellent post T-Rexx.

 

[White Eagle]

How do you know what a 1040 is?

Wouldn't that be 1040EZ?

 

[vulgar_newcomer]

Also, even where I work, people still go to the ER and claim indigent care when the bill comes....and they get it! One guy I work with has a wife (who works off the books) and has 2 kids, owns a double-wide, the land it is on, 2 paid for vehicles, a motorcycle and a 4 wheeler and they get on average $7000-$8000 a year back in refunds but doesn't want to pay his hospital bill, so its not always those who don't have insurance who don't pay, even those with insurance don't want to pay.

This isn't exactly how it works. True enough the hospital/ER will have to render treatment for the immediate problem, which doesn't include out patient pharmacy or follow up such as physical therapy for a broken ankle . ID will be required or found out regardless if the patient has insurance or money. The original creditor has more rights for a period of time, maybe 3 to 7 yrs to pursue and collect.
They will turn over the debt to a collection agency if they cannot collect directly, or the poor person doesn't qualify for some form of assistance. Often they will sue if assets are found, just as often they will write off the debt and sell it to a 3rd party junk collector. Known as a zombie or boiler room junk debt collector who will mark the credit report year after year forever!!!! The 3rd party collector will sell that debt if they have no luck and it could get sold many times for decades.
Its illegal but the debt will be on the credit report and it will haunt them long after 7 yrs. Hospitals don't just say "Oh well they can't pay because they are poor we will cover them". Of course they know this will happen but they will try and collect and write off the debt for tax reasons.
The person with the medical debt will have slashes on their credit report. This will make it hard to get insurance, a loan, a home , or a job and forget about a decent interest rate.


Someone can tell you what ever they want but don't buy it there credit report is in the shitter and if a 3rd party debt collector can't contact they may sue and get a judgment even yrs after the Statue of limitations is past should the debtor ignore there harassment and not go to court if they are sued.

A medical debt just doesn't disappear even if you can't pay, how some believe it to be so with 'free" care I don't understand. I do not disagree that a great many are never paid and lower income people who can't pay bare the brunt of this with poor credit and incredible interest rates "buy here pay here /rent to own" sucking them further down.

 

[rareboy]

The US has traditionally had the highest case costs in the world with the poorest outcomes compared to countries with universal health care. Instead of wasting the hundreds of billions on the business of healthcare, these dollars could be put into clinical care.

The better the overall health of the people, the higher the productivity and the lower the overall cost of providing adequate care.

 

[Jack Springer]

If the US has such poor medical care -- why do people from all over the world want to come here for medical treatment?

 

[Rolyo85]

If the US has such poor medical care -- why do people from all over the world want to come here for medical treatment?

They don't actually. Where did you pull that lunacy from? People go to Western Europe for treatment.

 

[Jack Springer]

Well they sure as hell don't go where you came from -- eastern Europe. LMAO

 

[Rolyo85]

This is so petty it fails to even be insulting It's hilarious that when caught in another bullshit, all you can do is lash out like a helpless angry teenager.

 

[rareboy]

If the US has such poor medical care -- why do people from all over the world want to come here for medical treatment?

You don't understand what I'm talking about do you?

Overall, for the cost per case, the US has the poorest outcomes.

It has nothing to do with the quality of care for those who have access to it. Of course people come from all over the world to places like Sloan Kettering or the Mayo or some of the other teaching hospital centres because of the clinicians. It is no different then people coming to Princess Margaret or Sick Kids in Canada or to the teaching institutes in Europe. People with money can afford to be health care tourists and chase leading doctors or new procedures. But this is the exception, not the rule.

What the case cost/outcome gives us though is the bigger picture of how people obtain care.

Case costs are bloated in the US....and not because patients have been getting more care or better care...they are bloated by excessive corporate administration and insurance administration costs. A huge chunk of the dollars ends up going to non-clinical services. They are also higher because many under-insured and uninsured people end up needing much more expensive interventions for catastrophic emergency care to deal with conditions that might have been treated earlier at much lower cost in a primary care focussed universal health care system. Because people may generally wait longer to receive treatment, the actual overall outcomes will not be as good either.

And you know who ultimately pays the cost for this? Everyone.

 

[Spiff]

Even in the unlikely chance they are eventually successful after many years of trying to repeal it, just think of all the sacrificed good legislation that was avoided because they have been focused only on this. They will claim victory, but the nation as a whole has been losing. The president has been driving the car, but congress has been destroying all the roads.

 

[Adrock-JD]

This really is simple. If the two parties don't vehemently oppose each other on every issue, they cease to exist. At least with big funders, anyway.

The truth is no longer important to any news channel. They are strictly driven by ratings, too.

The truth on any issue is somewhere in between what we all hear about it.

In the meantime, let's all just hope the U.S. doesn't collapse under the bullshit.

 

[Kulindahr]

They don't actually. Where did you pull that lunacy from? People go to Western Europe for treatment.

People from the US go to South and Central America, at an ever-growing rate.

I have a friend whose mother needed an operation for years, but even with insurance they would have had to get a second mortgage to cover the cost. Even that option lapsed once they hit retirement age.

Then he father died, leaving a chunk of money to pay for the operation and "associated expenses". Her doctors checked and couldn't get her in anywhere quickly. Instead, she took the money to take herself and the whole family to Brazil, where she not only got the procedure done at least as well and more quickly than was possible here, but the total cost -- including for taking the whole family along -- was less than here.


Health care in the US is fantastic for those who can afford to buy the best insurance, pay the co-pays and such without batting an eye, and hire people to handle all the paperwork for them. The rest... suffer.

 

[Kulindahr]

If the Republicans had ever done anything aiming at free market reforms to help out, I might be willing to listen. Unfortunately for all of us, the GOP favors all the aspects of medical care which drive up prices. Of those, their preference to continue limiting the supply of doctors is my favorite: any group interested in free market reforms to medical costs would start by busting up the AMA and ending its control over who can run a medical school, how big that school can be, and thus how many doctors the US can produce each year.

The Republicans are a joke: they whine about what people are trying to do, while insisting that centralizing more and more power is the answer.