Risk of oral sex versus car accidents

[Soilwork]

Apparently there's a few people who insist they got HIV from GETTING a blowjob.

Few experts believe them, although they admit that yes, it's possible technically.

one thing to remember is that just about every time they do a study on people who ONLY have oral sex, nobody has gets infected. The only people who claim to have been infected through oral sex are the ones who say so after the fact.

Does this mean they're lying? Of course not, but it sure makes life tough for the people studying it.

 

[3stripes]

What are you guys on about? I want to drive my car and you go on about blow jobs?

What is it with old people? School tried to scare us off sex too. Me and my buds have been trading bjs for a couple of years now and none of us have had any problems. We just stay away from you old guys so that we dont catch anything.

 

[Soilwork]

Me and my buds have been trading bjs for a couple of years now and none of us have had any problems. We just stay away from you old guys so that we dont catch anything.

Oh man... I'd introduce you to all of my friends who thought that by just having sex with guys under 21, they could avoid HIV.

but they're all dead.

 

[tbonez]

While I see my doctor regularly, next time I should ask her to check my head...I'm thinking I should get it examined for even stepping in here...

So, somewhere between five and a dozen people in all of the UK have contracted HIV/Aids from oral sex? How many people have been struck my lightening in the same period in the UK? How many wives have contracted HIV/Aids from their husbands?

All sexual activity carries some risk, even when you take all of the recommended precautions.Condoms break, speaking from personal experience. Husbands and boyfriends have been known lie and cheat.

It's all about relative risk. The risk from oral sex is so relatively small as to be almost negligible or statistically almost insignificant...except of course for the 9 people who contracted it that way, I suppose.

It's obviously always best to be armed with all the facts but they need to be put in perspective.

Life is always and irrefutably ultimately fatal. No one gets out alive. While we would all like to die in our sleep at some ripe old age, the chances of that happening are very unlikely.

Facts are benign things, it's how they are interpreted and used where it gets messy. Many will claim this is proof that all gay sex is inherently dangerous, wrong and should be avoided period. To be perfectly honest that worries me more that the relatively remote risk of contracting HIV/Aids from oral sex, perhaps that's just me.

As has been said repeatedly, play safe, know your partner(s) and try and keep them to a minimum. If you contract HIV/Aids you are going to have more impact than just doing irreversible harm to yourself. It will have a great impact on many around you and it is others who will, in most cases, end up footing the bill for your care. Almost no one has the means to pay for the $10,000 to $20,000 a year your medication (antiretroviral) alone will cost.

My two cents.

 

[tbonez]

This seems the best place...

Is it just me or is the whole topic of HIV/Aids remarkably absent from the daily discourse in JUB? It strikes me that bringing it up generally is about as popular as a punch bowl with a turd floating in it .

Surely this is a pivotal 'gay' issue especially with all of the misinformation, myth and stigma surrounding it. Do gay men just generally want to avoid talking about it until it strikes home?

While I find this thread very interesting I find the obvious lack of (m)any other meaningful threads on the topic even more interesting. Is HIV/Aids so stigmatized even within the gay "community" that it is just something we would like to ignore like the 500 pound gorilla in the room that no one talks about?

I am constantly hearing opinions about HIV/Aids that make me think that the whole 'education' thing isn't working. I've heard people claim they can tell if someone is infected by looking at them. How is it possible to be so deluded in this day and age? A number of people post that if they choose to bare-back it is no one's business. It seems to me as ludicrous as claims that driving drunk is a "personal choice". Just who do they think is going to get stuck caring for them or paying the untold thousands of dollars their "personal choice" is going to cost? So it's no one's business but your own until you get sick then it's everyone's responsibility to care for you?

I know everyone is here to have a good time, meet some friends and try an get laid, but if we won't talk about HIV/Aids, who will? Are we supposed to rely on an ad in a bus shelter to get out the message? If we are too afraid, ashamed or indifferent to bridge the subject then who? When? Where?

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer. I'm not trying to lecture, (as if!) I'm asking questions.

 

[runner]

But..oral sex is so much fun!

 

[metta]

This seems the best place...

Is it just me or is the whole topic of HIV/Aids remarkably absent from the daily discourse in JUB? It strikes me that bringing it up generally is about as popular as a punch bowl with a turd floating in it .

Surely this is a pivotal 'gay' issue especially with all of the misinformation, myth and stigma surrounding it. Do gay men just generally want to avoid talking about it until it strikes home?

While I find this thread very interesting I find the obvious lack of (m)any other meaningful threads on the topic even more interesting. Is HIV/Aids so stigmatized even within the gay "community" that it is just something we would like to ignore like the 500 pound gorilla in the room that no one talks about?

I am constantly hearing opinions about HIV/Aids that make me think that the whole 'education' thing isn't working. I've heard people claim they can tell if someone is infected by looking at them. How is it possible to be so deluded in this day and age? A number of people post that if they choose to bare-back it is no one's business. It seems to me as ludicrous as claims that driving drunk is a "personal choice". Just who do they think is going to get stuck caring for them or paying the untold thousands of dollars their "personal choice" is going to cost? So it's no one's business but your own until you get sick then it's everyone's responsibility to care for you?

I know everyone is here to have a good time, meet some friends and try an get laid, but if we won't talk about HIV/Aids, who will? Are we supposed to rely on an ad in a bus shelter to get out the message? If we are too afraid, ashamed or indifferent to bridge the subject then who? When? Where?

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer. I'm not trying to lecture, (as if!) I'm asking questions.

Excellent observation. It should be something that is discussed. It would be a wonderful thing if there were no sexually transmitted diseases....but that is fantasy.

I don't want HIV or Aids. I don't want to have to take cocktails. I don't want to do anything that may result in dying in a long drawn out painful ugly way. It gives good reason to be in a monogamous relationship, if that can work for you. Or limiting it to kissing, hugging, carressing, massaging, ,, , & jacking off. And I guess that there is also those J/O clubs . I have never been to one so I don't know if other stuff happens as well but that is safer than the other stuff.

But I'm assuming that most people here feel that the risk with b/j's is so low that it is worth the risk. Is that correct?

 

[Yves]

This seems the best place...

Is it just me or is the whole topic of HIV/Aids remarkably absent from the daily discourse in JUB? It strikes me that bringing it up generally is about as popular as a punch bowl with a turd floating in it .

Surely this is a pivotal 'gay' issue especially with all of the misinformation, myth and stigma surrounding it. Do gay men just generally want to avoid talking about it until it strikes home?

While I find this thread very interesting I find the obvious lack of (m)any other meaningful threads on the topic even more interesting. Is HIV/Aids so stigmatized even within the gay "community" that it is just something we would like to ignore like the 500 pound gorilla in the room that no one talks about?

I am constantly hearing opinions about HIV/Aids that make me think that the whole 'education' thing isn't working. I've heard people claim they can tell if someone is infected by looking at them. How is it possible to be so deluded in this day and age? A number of people post that if they choose to bare-back it is no one's business. It seems to me as ludicrous as claims that driving drunk is a "personal choice". Just who do they think is going to get stuck caring for them or paying the untold thousands of dollars their "personal choice" is going to cost? So it's no one's business but your own until you get sick then it's everyone's responsibility to care for you?

I know everyone is here to have a good time, meet some friends and try an get laid, but if we won't talk about HIV/Aids, who will? Are we supposed to rely on an ad in a bus shelter to get out the message? If we are too afraid, ashamed or indifferent to bridge the subject then who? When? Where?

Sorry for being such a Debbie Downer. I'm not trying to lecture, (as if!) I'm asking questions.

Good point. The discussion is somewhat limited. We take sides and not necessarily consider current evidence in our opinions. Having oral sex with or without a condom is not the same (even if you have a mango flavored condom at hand), but a condom might be the alternative of choice if someone has tested positive for a serious STI. Not all men (gay or straight) have adequate information about STI or discuss the issue with a physician.

We know more about HIV/AIDS and STIs in general than 20 years ago but the information is not necessarily being disseminated effectively to all groups (and some are rather resistant to the information). The perception of risk is at the end subjective. The "it´s no one business" attitude is part of the reaction. We have the right to disagree but in the case of STIs our behavior has consequences. There are a few guys (gay and straight) who willingly deceive sex partners by not sharing information about STI status.

Concerns about oral sex are not new and not necessarily part of an anti-gay campaign. Some STIs are increasing and resistance to treatment has been described (Syphilis is on the rise). We should be able to know the facts and then make an informed decision with our sex partner. I´ve met too many guys that didn´t know they had an STI (and were not planning to discuss sex with a physician either) until a contact resulted positive.

Some people decide to use a condom for oral sex, others reject the idea. People should have the right to decide the level of protection they are confortable with and be responsible.

 

[Andreus]

lets not forget HPV

it is spread through skin to skin contact, penetration and ejaculation have nothing to do with it, and can lead to cancer

condoms dont help and there is no cure

it is permanent and life threatening

 

[tbonez]

And that was precisely my point. The relative risk of getting HIV from a blow job is higher than the risk of getting killed in a car accident. Do you call deaths from motor vehicle accidents statistically insignificant?"

One of us has some serious mathematical misconceptions...or some really bad data.

Just a few random fact from the WHO, feel free to confirm them...I took the time to before making my post:

3,221 people were killed in road accidents in the UK, that's killed as in DEAD in 2004

2,252 people who died in the UK from HIV/AIDS in 2004, approximately 1800 contracted it thought sexual contact of any kind (gay, straight, bi)

6,242 The number of HIV diagnoses in 2004 from all kinds of sexually activity in 2004,

Considering that 3221 people represents about 52% of all the HIV infections in 2004 that would mean that for your assertion "The relative risk of getting HIV from a blow job is higher than the risk of getting killed in a car accident." HALF of all infections would be the result of oral sex.

One of us has gone way off the rails. Care to explain how that person would be me?

Now let me take a few minutes to look at the WHO data on oral transmission rates and I'll get back to you with the rest.

 

[tbonez]

Now you have me REALLY teed off:

How many infections do there need to be until you stop calling it "negligible"?

How about you read the ENTIRE link YOU provided on oral transmission:


"Despite recognising that transmission does occur, some feel that the underlying risk of HIV transmission via oral sex is so low as to be negligible.

Well that would seem to suggest that my assertion of "negligible" is 100% accurate.

Does that answer your question?

And that was precisely my point. The relative risk of getting HIV from a blow job is higher than the risk of getting killed in a car accident. Do you call deaths from motor vehicle accidents statistically insignificant?

I wouldn't call you "hysterical" just totally off base and dead wrong.

On an entirely different matter:

I'm more that a bit annoyed that you have used a PM to lambaste me and make totally false accusations. It's one thing for some random poster to do it, but quite frankly I'm more than a little put-out that someone who is a moderator would be so careless as to make totally false claims.

I responded to your accusations by PM quite some time before you went off-line and you seem to have ignored me.

 

[tbonez]

For anyone interested in some facts

HIV and STD Division, PHLS Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre, 61 Colindale Avenue, London NW9 5EQ, UK.

"There have been 13 cases of HIV infection through orogenital transmission reported in the UK, five of which have been published*. In two cases, both unpublished, the reporting physician was not convinced that oro-genital contact was the only risk. Of the remaining 11 cases, nine were of male-to-male transmission, one of male-to-female transmission, and one of female-to-male transmission. Case reports are of value in identifying factors that may facilitate transmission. From the literature, the following factors were likely to be associated with increased risk of HIV transmission through oral sex: oral trauma, sores, inflammation, allergy, concomitant sexually transmitted infections, ejaculation in the mouth, and systemic immune suppression. In four of the UK cases, the following possible risk factors were noted: allergic pharyngitis (two cases) [13], bleeding disorder (one case), and tooth abscess (one case)."

*Chen W, Samarasinghe PL: Allergy, oral sex, and HIV [letter]. Lancet

The truth is out there, I was thinking it wouldn't kill anyone to have it "in here".

 

[tbonez]

I spent a bit of time doing some reading and this is the best, latest data I could find from a reputable peer reviewed journal on the chances of contracting HIV thought oral sex.

The per-sex-act probability of HIV transmission in a cohort of men who have sex with men (MSM) and determined that for unprotected receptive oral intercourse with ejaculation 0.04%.

Vittinghoff E, Douglas J, Judson F et al.
Per-contact risk of human immuno-deficiency virus transmission between male sexual partners. Am J Epidemiol 1999;150(3):306-11.

That means that you would have to suck off 2500 guys to get HIV based on the statistical risk.

Doest that put it in perspective?

 

[Soilwork]

2500?

Cool.. so I can do it another 300 times?

YIPEEE!@!!!

 

[Lefty]

hey assholes of the world
its never easy to lose someone
but
its' easier to lose some one by their (stupid choice) of a sexual experience than it is to lose a friend /partner to a drunk/druggie/incapacitated or whatever..i've been there...some pains have no end. they even sneak up and debilitate you months later when youare walking in a park or on a beach or just trying to have a good day. don't try to subscribe your answer to everything 'till you've worn my shoes.

sorry guys this one pushed a button and i over re-acted.. dying should be done by very old people that are ready to go, not young people (anyone lwss than 120) or maybe 130. i've lost 2 in the last 2 months and am feeling so ripped up that if i wasn't a guy i'd probably waste a day or so and just cry. damn, i love my friends, i love my friends...life bites sometimes,but why doesit have to take such big bites? ok, tomorrow i'll be back sarcastic and down and that canadian reject, but, today i've gotta donate to a beautiful person who DIED to ealy for anyone to evensay they had a good life.

fuck, i'm going to miss/hurt over marty for a long time...sorry if this brings anyone down...wasn't my intention..i've just gotta blow somewhere and i think i have a FEW friends here that might understand. for anyone that doesn't know me i apologise for soundin g like a freaking drama queen...the rest of you know its' a ad day. love lcm

 

[tbonez]

2500?

Cool.. so I can do it another 300 times?

YIPEEE!@!!!

Well if you have bleeding mouth ulcers, gaping abbesses and like to gurgle cum it might only me 200.

You might want to see a dentist if you do. BTW, seems to be a relatively sure-fire way to prevent HIV infection from swallowing bucket-loads of spooge. Not to mention I would bet it would do wonders for one's breath!

Yes, I'm pissed off. Not because someone made what I would assume was a perfectly innocent misrepresentation of the risks associated with oral sex...I'm pissed because I was broadsided with a PM that was totally inaccurate, CHOSE to misinterpret my comment and contained an unsubstantiated and false claim. Particularly as it came from a Moderator and he neglected to respond to it despite being on-line quite some time after I brought my concern to his attention.

 

[Andreus]

getting out of controll, men

the wands that bestow points will come along shortly if you are not carefull

just a bit of friendly advice to take as you want

 

[Soilwork]

I'm pissed because I was broadsided with a PM that was totally inaccurate, CHOSE to misinterpret my comment and contained an unsubstantiated and false claim. Particularly as it came from a Moderator and he neglected to respond to it despite being on-line quite some time after I brought my concern to his attention.

Don't let that bug you.

he does that to me all the time.

Called me an "Asshole" last week.

And a Fuckwit earlier this year. Or maybe that was another Moderator.

oh well.

Hey wait.. aren't you and me supposed to hate each other's guts or something?

 

[Soilwork]

Oh, and by the way "Asshole" is accurate.

I AM an asshole.

Just so we're clear on that.

 

[tbonez]

Don't let that bug you.

It didn't the first time...Second one is the charm!

Hey wait.. aren't you and me supposed to hate each other's guts or something?

Two things Soil,

First: I can honesty say with likely exception of career paedophiles, mass murders and possibly the entire Phelps clan I don't actually 'hate' anyone. If my list is incomplete it's because I don't keep one.

Secondly: I don't have a 'gut', so you can't possibly hate mine.