Russia cracking down on gays

[mightbe]

Det är det enda ni gör på dagarna ni sitter där I Ventrilo och spelar DotA.

.

Google translate tells me that that's Swedish. While *mutually intelligible to the Danes, I like Denmark more than Sweden.



*It's actually a really weird system of level of intelligibility. I don't really get it, but it's apparently enough to call them 3 separate languages rather than dialects.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Det är det enda ni gör på dagarna ni sitter där I Ventrilo och spelar DotA.

Also I hate Basshunter.

 

[Kulindahr]

If you read history guys, gays never fare well in socialist regimes. Gays are always one of the first groups on the trains headed for the "camps". We are also one of the first groups used to put the very people in power that eventually turn and sacrifice us to the "greater good".

Not so. Gays generally fare quite well in socialist regimes. It's communist regimes that have been the problem. There's a significant difference.

 

[Kulindahr]

Socialists always use "fringe" or "minority" groups to gain power. Once power is gained they then destroy those groups as a trophy for yet another group to codify power. Read your history guys. Modern Europe is following the same model as it has done in times past.

Ask Ernst Rohm about how well his gayness was tolerated after the Nazi's gained power. He wasn't executed because of it outright. It was the popular excuse given. One which everyone pretty much was on board with.

I get very suspicious when socialists embrace any "group". They are a slippery bunch that has proven to be wholly untrustworthy.

Your history is false. Socialist groups on the whole have almost always been positive towards gays.

Your 'example' of the Nazis actually points toward the truth. There was never anything socialist about the Nazis, despite the official name; they were fascist, which is better described as a form of corporatism; in fact "national corporatism" would be a better description. It's nationalist movements that have really been against gays, especially nationalist authoritarian ones. That's where communists in Russia and the Nazis in Germany meet: both were very nationalist and very authoritarian to a degree that made the official political description nearly irrelevant.

 

[Kulindahr]

Beware of conservatism. It goes against humanity.

Hardly. Remember, the American Revolution was at root conservative. Conservatism boils down to the concept of preserving what is good and changing the rest with prudence and a touch of caution.

 

[Callum]

^^ I was under the impression (and to my knowledge) that Hitler was pro-gay and didn't turn on homosexuality until he could use it to disgrace a political opponent.

European history doesn't stick in my head though, sadly.

 

[Kulindahr]

I will interject, if these countries are the paragon of human existence, then why is everyone trying to get into the U.S. I may have one possible answer. The mean income in the U.S. is 50% higher than all of the countries in your Nordic model.

There are a lot of interesting things about these wonderful countries. Let's take Sweden as an example. If you spend 12 years of your life in higher education to become a doctor, you can expect to make just a few dollars more than a guy that spent 4 years in higher education to become an IT guy, around 80K a year. Isn't that great! If you want to be a HVAC guy you can make a whopping 36k a year.

There is no good socialism and bad socialism there is only socialism. It has proven time and again to be an ineffective economic system.

I don't know where you're getting your figures, but according to the OECD and the UN, median income in the US is just barely above that in the Scandinavian countries. Once adjusted for things like health care, which those countries provide while the US does not (remember that according to the IRS, such benefits are often counted as income), the US falls in the bottom of this group.

More telling is the base income, that of the poorest: the Scandinavian countries are a bit higher (though interestingly the per capita GPD is far lower [weird situation, although if income disparity is considered, maybe not]).

 

[Kulindahr]

Socialist ideologues will not accept any factual data. None.

As a libertarian, I'm saying your figures are 'way off.

But this is wandering far off topic.

 

[Durango95]

As a libertarian, I'm saying your figures are 'way off.

But this is wandering far off topic.

I tried to get back on point.

My figures are probably no further off that anyone else. It really does depend on who is compiling and furnishing the information. You cited the UN and OECD. The UN is notorious for creative arithmetic. The OECD has a clear agenda so anything they would put forth would have to be viewed in that light.

When quoting figures I usually average several different studies, stats or polls together. I never rely on a single source. That just isn't wise nowadays with the complete lack of objectivity which seems to pervade all facets of society.

 

[mightbe]

Different studies sounds nice on paper, but you really must gauge the reliability, age, accuracy, methodology, peer-evaluation credibility, etc.

The UN is a compiler, not a creator: it gets most of its information from outside experts that are beyond qualified to give objective data and analysis. Citing the UN is citing an umbrella: they'e all checked against each other, data is disputed, eventually a consensus is agreed upon and then it is published. Only after many layers scrutiny and and debate does anything get set in stone and released.

The OECD has a similar process. And since their primary agenda happens to include being correct, that is a non-issue.

Polls are not very precise, so the only time to frown over polls is when it's a black and white issue.

Perhaps it is more unwise to try and find many different sources if the trade-off is quality. When it comes down to it, the UN and OECD are first-rate. Healthy skepticism is fine, but don't let it get worked into your system that things MUST be this and MUST be that.

On the matters of the success of the Nordic model, the numbers are very clearly in their favor. They've proven over time that their system is sustainable. The German model and Nordic model both started at about the same time, but when the German model started to falter after reunification it became clear to the world that the Nordic model didn't so much as flinch when shit hit the fan in the Swedish banking crisis. It worked exactly as it should've and now, 18+ years later, runs strong. I would've liked to see us solve our 2008 crisis as the Swedes did. It's a proven procedure. We really could learn so much from them.

If you're so unsure of it, perhaps ask one of our resident Scandinavians.

 

[Kulindahr]

Meanwhile, gays in both the EC and the US seem to be more prosperous than the norm. Perhaps if Russia had more gays, their economic situation might improve.

 

[xbuzzerx]

I tried to get back on point.

My figures are probably no further off that anyone else. It really does depend on who is compiling and furnishing the information. You cited the UN and OECD. The UN is notorious for creative arithmetic. The OECD has a clear agenda so anything they would put forth would have to be viewed in that light.

When quoting figures I usually average several different studies, stats or polls together. I never rely on a single source. That just isn't wise nowadays with the complete lack of objectivity which seems to pervade all facets of society.

I think you're playing games now to justify a predetermined conclusion.

There is no big huge mess of conflicting and controversial studies showing that the quality of life in socialized, advanced Northwest Europe is all helter skelter all over the map. The findings are pretty consistent. If you're finding a huge body of conflicting studies that claim the high standard of living in Northwestern and Scandinavian Europe is false or overexaggerated then I question what your sources are and I question why you think there's some kind of conspiracy in international organizations to cherrypick inaccurate ones.

 

[Laufey]

Ég góð lífs gæði íslenski víking hissa á því hvert þetta rússnesk umræðuefni hefur orðið.