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Russia Goes Rogue

An interesting parallel -

If Halliburton (Cheney & associates) and other "Defence Contractors" that follow in the wake of misguided US Military adventures can't be called "Vermin" then who else could be?

Though in the case of both Russian and US military adventures - "Vultures" is maybe an equally accurate description as "Vermin".

True enough.
If I lived in a target country, though, I'd rather deal with vermin that suck dollars than vermin who suck blood.
Though on a deeper level, I'd rather invoke the ultimate line of the Second Amendment right, get together with my compatriots, and throw the bastards out.
 
I noticed that Gorbachev's article appeared under the title "Provoking the Bear Won't Solve Anything" in today's Oregonian. To me, the most important words weren't those quoted by Russian Bottom Slut, but these:
"How can one erase from memory the horrifying scenes of the nighttime rocket attack on a peaceful town, the razing of entire city blocks, the death of people taking cover in basements, the barbaric destruction of ancient monuments and ancestral graves?"

He's not talking about the actions of Russian soldiers, but of the Georgian forces sent by Saakashvili to 'reclaim' a wayward province.

While Russia has shown itself not to be trusted by advancing beyond the area they were to keep the peace in, we'd best not forget just what it was they were responding to.
 
because Russia is the only country threatening the sovereignty of others

- The USA helped Pinochet to became a dictator.
- The USA killed people and animals in Cuba, using deadly bacteries. And was trying to kill Castro.
- The USA bombed Belgrad and the Embassy of China
- The USA supported Osama Ben Laden and talibs
- The USA supported the aggression of Israel against Lebanon
- The USA began the bloody war in Iraq

Saakashvili killed our soldiers. When the president of Somali Mohamed Farrah Aidid had killed some American marines in 1993 - the USA agents killed him. We haven't done the same.

So, the USA are more avengeful and militaristic country than Russia.

See more on Wikipedia - the USA intervention in Chile:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile#Support_for_Pinochet
 
They have been de facto independent; Georgian "supervision" has been meaningless. De jure, they've been part of Georgia all along, but so what? If they've shown they can rule themselves -- which they have -- and if Georgia hasn't made any effort in all this time to reclaim them -- which it hasn't -- then as far as I'm concerned, Saakashvili and the international community are acting the part of the tyrant.

A few points to make here:

1) De jure: [Latin, In law.] Legitimate; lawful, as a Matter of Law. Having complied with all the requirements imposed by law.

A de jure government is the legal, legitimate government of a state and is so recognized by other states. In contrast, a de facto government is in actual possession of authority and control of the state. For example, a government that has been overthrown and has moved to another state will attain de jure status if other nations refuse to accept the legitimacy of the revolutionary government.


You seem here to be advocating a complete abrogation of the law in favour of some recognition of a de facto status that has no legal standing. You would presumably have supported the South's position and its claims to have the right to secede during the American Civil War, then? That is interesting.

2) As for the region "ruling themselves", this is a bit misleading. What you have are two people claiming to be "President" due to two competing polls (one of which ethnic Georgians living in the area were not even permitted to participate in).

You have a de facto secessionist "President" who is backed and financed by the Russians and local criminal elements such as the Tedeyev clan, and you have an opposition "President" who was elected in a far wider "alternative" referendum which allowed Georgians and Ossetians to participate as equal voters, and who is supported by various organisations and groups from within South Ossetia and Georgia that oppose secession and advocate for peace in the region and talks with Tbilisi. While Georgia officially does not recognise either "President" or their administrations, there are "back-door" communications between Tbilisi and the latter.

This hardly provides for the stable governing and administrating of any region, and implies to me that there is still a great amount of confusion and disarray there. Particularly when a major source of revenue for South Ossetia comes from the republic's customs service and for freight traffic along the Trans-Caucasian highway, which are controlled by the Tedeyev clan and their criminal gangs.

On 18 August, the "President" himself was forced to dissolve his own government, citing the cabinet's "procrastinating with the distribution of humanitarian aid and the ineffective carrying out of orders."

Such ineffectiveness and instability can hardly be considered efficient governance and would seem to belie the idyllic conditions that you purport.

3) Georgia has been most consistent in both its actions and declarations from the very beginning of South Ossetia's pretensions towards independence. Although talks have been held periodically between the two sides, little progress was made under the government of Eduard Shevardnadze (1993–2003). But under Saakashvili, since 2004, the reassertion of Georgian governmental authority in the region has, whether right or wrong, become a political priority. Having successfully put an end to the de facto independence of the south western province of Ajaria in May 2004, he pledged to seek a similar solution in South Ossetia.

Via the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, the OSCE Permanent Council at Vienna, and the OSCE Ministerial Council in Ljubljana, as well as various other venues, the Georgian government has put forward various plans for a peaceful resolution of the matter, but the South Ossetians, under Russian guidance of course, have rejected every single one out of hand, despite the fact that the US and Europe have been firmly supportive of the efforts.

4) Because you do not like international law as it stands, and because perhaps the fact that not one of the 192 member states of the UN (this includes Russia, significantly) recognises the independence of South Ossetia does not strike you as an agreeable position is irrelevant to the situation. They are not required to consult with you. The facts are what they are, and wishing them differently does not change them.

You can afford not to care what the international community thinks. South Ossetia cannot.
 
Chalchero

MIKHAIL GORBACHEV: Russia Never Wanted a War

Firstly, the day I believe anything written by a former leader of the Soviet Union, no matter how liberal-minded he purports himself to be, will be the day that I hope that every school I have ever attended revokes my degrees.

Secondly, Gorbachev is being disingenuous when he says:

Russia did not want this crisis. The Russian leadership is in a strong enough position domestically; it did not need a little victorious war. Russia was dragged into the fray by the recklessness of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili. He would not have dared to attack without outside support. Once he did, Russia could not afford inaction.

Russia has been at the heart of this issue from the very beginning, and Putin has stated his interest for some time in removing Saakashvili from power. Fomenting troubles in the region was a marvellous way for him to make Saakashvili's life difficult and to goad him into making such a gross and idiotic miscalculation as sending troops into South Ossetia to begin with.

If this were not the case, then the Russians would have left Georgia proper already, rather than continuing to block one of its major ports and digging into positions throughout the country. Please let us not be so naïve.

H.D.S. Greenway from The International Herald Tribune has the same opinion:

From the same piece:

As for Russia, it wanted to reassert itself in the region, and Saakashvili gave it the opportunity.

The Russians were furious when Europe and the United States backed Kosovar independence, and last week's military assault into Georgia was partly a payback.

You forgot to quote these lines as well.

How Russia views the Caucasus is of less importance than how those nations view themselves. It is interesting how many people here decry the perceived disregard for South Ossetians' "self determination", but have little sympathy or even understanding for the self determination of sovereign nations, of which South Ossetia may not count itself one.

Russia may wish to dominate the region like its own backyard. It does not mean that the nations it wishes to dominate are altogether in agreement, and I think should really be the ones to determine for themselves with whom they wish to align.

Russian pique is not a legitimate excuse for nor does it justify its brutish actions.
 
I noticed that Gorbachev's article appeared under the title "Provoking the Bear Won't Solve Anything" in today's Oregonian. To me, the most important words weren't those quoted by Russian Bottom Slut, but these:


He's not talking about the actions of Russian soldiers, but of the Georgian forces sent by Saakashvili to 'reclaim' a wayward province.

While Russia has shown itself not to be trusted by advancing beyond the area they were to keep the peace in, we'd best not forget just what it was they were responding to.

And yet those very same scenes were repeated on a much larger scale by the Russians in their advance through Georgia. Somehow one justifies and thereby cancels out the other?
 
It is interesting how many people here decry the perceived disregard for South Ossetians' "self determination", but have little sympathy or even understanding for the self determination of sovereign nations, of which South Ossetia may not count itself one.

The same holds true for Kosovo but that didn't count for much in the west when it came time to recognize them.

I can't blame the russians for behaving as we do. Whatever the differing merits of each case a 'do as I say and not as I do' attitude is not conducive to successful foreign relations.
 
Chalchero

MIKHAIL GORBACHEV: Russia Never Wanted a War

Another interesting quote from Comrade Gorbachev:

Our two countries could develop a serious agenda for genuine, rather than token, cooperation. Many Americans, as well as Russians, understand the need for this. But is the same true of the political leaders?

If, however, the commission is ready to also consider the interests of the other side and of common security, it may actually help rebuild trust between Russia and the United States and allow them to start doing useful work together.

This is very amusing coming from him. Russia, especially most recently, has proven itself to be most untrustworthy in every regard when it comes to agreements with other parties. Russia is like the dumb bully on the block, It sees those who wish to talk and negotiate as weak and only respects force. Every agreement that it makes is broken by them before the ink is dry, as evidenced by the ceasefire agreement with Georgia which they never implemented except in the most salutary way.

Russia's policy of "renegotiating" partnership agreements with foreign investors, leaving them with a small minority stake (if anything at all) in projects which were primarily funded by them; Russia's policy of choking off natural gas supplies from its client states whenever said state does not toe the Russian line; Russia's "negotiation" at gunpoint with Ukraine resulting in more than doubling their prices for natural gas shipments, and threatening "complications and delays" if Ukraine did not accede to their demands; Russia's engagement in cyber-warfare against neighbouring states...

I really could go on, but honestly, why? It is obvious that what we are dealing with here is an impetuous over-grown child of a state without the maturity and sophistication to know how to deal with others except through force and intimidation. Why would anyone seek a partnership with such a country? Why wouldn't anyone who could feasibly be harmed by this uncontrollable beast seek protection and support from elsewhere? Who can ever feel secure doing business with Russia?

Gorbachev uses an analogy of sitting at a table. Well I have one too.

How is any civilised person to view someone who comes to the table unkempt, eats with his hands, and chews with his mouth open, whilst swigging vodka from the bottle? If the Russians wish to act like barbarians, then that is how the rest of the world will view them. They cannot have it both ways.
 
The same holds true for Kosovo but that didn't count for much in the west when it came time to recognize them.

I can't blame the russians for behaving as we do. Whatever the differing merits of each case a 'do as I say and not as I do' attitude is not conducive to successful foreign relations.

This is silly, as the comparison does not apply. For whatever the propaganda on the Russian and Ossetian side, Georgia never engaged in a full scale and overwhelmingly popular campaign of oppression and ethnic cleansing against the Ossetians as Milošević's Serbia did against the Albanians in Kosovo.

It should also not be forgotten that Kosovo's first attempt at independence in 1990 was only recognised by Albania. The rest of the international community did not recognise it. It was only later events which forced the issue.

Whatever the situation is in South Ossetia, they do still enjoy a high level of autonomy, which Serbia was recalcitrant in refusing to grant to Kosovo. Both Russia and Serbia sought to drag out the discussions of Kosovo's final status interminably, while maintaining the status quo. This was untenable, as Kosovo in the interim had no effective government, and was being administered by the UN.

As Serbia (and Russia) would not agree to autonomy, and the UN had no interest in remaining in Kosovo indefinitely, a decision had to be made. Russian and Serbian intransigence is responsible for Kosovo's independence. It is sad that they and so many others still can not understand this.

Also, your contention that "we" (whomever that may be) somehow acted inappropriately thereby giving Russia the green light to do the same is ridiculous. That is not how mature and sophisticated democracies work. We learn from our and other people's mistakes, we do not repeat them. That is the immature attitude that started this entire mess to begin with, and will prevent any real agreement from being reached at any time in the near future.
 
True enough.
If I lived in a target country, though, I'd rather deal with vermin that suck dollars than vermin who suck blood.
Though on a deeper level, I'd rather invoke the ultimate line of the Second Amendment right, get together with my compatriots, and throw the bastards out.

Sadly - there seems to be no practical difference between the vermin/vulures that suck blood and those that just suck money
 
- The USA helped Pinochet to became a dictator.
- The USA killed people and animals in Cuba, using deadly bacteries. And was trying to kill Castro.
- The USA bombed Belgrad and the Embassy of China
- The USA supported Osama Ben Laden and talibs
- The USA supported the aggression of Israel against Lebanon
- The USA began the bloody war in Iraq

Saakashvili killed our soldiers. When the president of Somali Mohamed Farrah Aidid had killed some American marines in 1993 - the USA agents killed him. We haven't done the same.

I think some of the "sins" you ascribe to the USA are overstated- They didn't use bacterial warfare against Cuba and they bombed the Chinese Embassy by mistake.

It is true that the Taliban and Osama Ben Laden were largely financed by US taxpayers and most of the other "aggresive US interventions" you quote also occured.

In this case I don't think Russia wanted a war in Georgia - nor had they planned for this. The situation in the two "separatist" parts of Georgia is one that it is hard for Westerners to understand.

These aren't "breakaway" parts of a historically unified nation - but regions that have been self governing ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union Most people there want to be - and think of themselves as part of Russia (and also have Russian citizenship).

So the present crisis was very much initiated by the actions of the Georgian government and not one that Russia wanted.

The "Golden rule" in any soverignty distpute is the will of the people - this is why I feel the actions of Russia are wholly justified.

I would also contrast this with the situation in Tibet - where my own country has conquered and is controlling people against their will. We (China) have clearly no legitimate right to be there and this occupation of people against their will is something that should rightly bring us shame.

On the other hand - I think the Russians have acted in this case in the legitimate interest of the people.

The long term solution should be a democratic one - the people of South Ossetai and Abkhazia should be able to vote to determine their own affiliation - and the rest of the international community should respect this.
 
Russians wish to act like barbarians

1. The USA soldiers act like barbarians in Afghanistan and Iraq. They don't respect other cultures. Once, they cut Koran into peaces in Afghanistan. They used homophobic language to humiliate Afghanistans (they wrote "Afghanistans are faggots" on the bombs).

2. Saakashvili bombed Tskhinvali, killing children and pregnant women. He isn't better than Slobodan Miloshevich.

3. We broke Georgian military objects. NATO's forces broke Serbian industrian objects. We didn't stop Ossetian looters - the USA didn't stop Albanians from destroying Serbian churches and killing priests.

4. Israel entered Lebanon without the permission of the United Nations. Lebanon is an independent country. Exploding Israeli mines had been killing people in Lebanon for a long time after war.

So, I don't see any difference.

READ Giulietto Chiesa on Russia-Georgia war: ‘Europe is responsible too’
http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/26009/interview-giulietto-chiesa-georgia-war-europe.html

AsianDream
I agree with you. By the way, Dalai Lama XIV is a great man. He is very wise.
 
AsianDream
I agree with you. By the way, Dalai Lama XIV is a great man. He is very wise.

I think the Dalai Lama is a total waste of space - who did nothing meaningful to protest the occupation of his country by China - except run away to somewhere else.

China is a great nation - but our occupation of Tibet is something we should be ashamed of.

But I agree with you that the Russian action in Georgia is justified - and that the situation there can only be resolved by a democratic vote of the people there.
 
1. The USA soldiers act like barbarians in Afghanistan and Iraq. They don't respect other cultures. Once, they cut Koran into peaces in Afghanistan. They used homophobic language to humiliate Afghanistans (they wrote "Afghanistans are faggots" on the bombs).

2. Saakashvili bombed Tskhinvali, killing children and pregnant women. He isn't better than Slobodan Miloshevich.

3. We broke Georgian military objects. NATO's forces broke Serbian industrian objects. We didn't stop Ossetian looters - the USA didn't stop Albanians from destroying Serbian churches and killing priests.

4. Israel entered Lebanon without the permission of the United Nations. Lebanon is an independent country. Exploding Israeli mines had been killing people in Lebanon for a long time after war.

So, I don't see any difference.

READ Giulietto Chiesa on Russia-Georgia war: ‘Europe is responsible too’
http://www.cafebabel.com/eng/article/26009/interview-giulietto-chiesa-georgia-war-europe.html

AsianDream
I agree with you. By the way, Dalai Lama XIV is a great man. He is very wise.

1. I agree with you that the US can be less than sensitive to other cultures. But that does not make them barbarians. Have you read of your own country's history in Afghanistan? Absolutely NOTHING of which is to be very proud, I can assure you.

What about Russians in Chechnya? What about Russians anywhere for Heaven's sake? What about Russian treatment of its own people? There are no civil rights, there is a LONG history of oppression and barbarism against your own citizens who are imprisoned or murdered outright for simply being suspected of opposing whatever government happens to be in power at the time. Putin has been no different (Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Anna Politkovskaya, Alexander Litvinenko, the poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko, etc...).

Please do not come to me with this silliness because honestly there is no comparison.

2. You are being hysterical now. Milošević was an animal and a perpetrator of genocide. Slobodan Milošević initiated four wars during the 1990s, including a devastating campaign of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo which killed thousands and drove almost a million people from their homes. Mikheil Saakashvili is a man who has made a misjudgement. And what has occurred in Tskhinvali is impossible to determine for certain until independent organisations are able to establish the actual facts on the ground, and this cannot be done until Russia has actually completed its compliance with the terms of the ceasefire agreement which it is now flouting with abandon.

3. I am not having a discussion with you on this thread about the NATO campaigns against Serbia because such a discussion would be off topic here. If it is something that matters so very much to you, then start a thread and I promise I will be there. But the matter here regards Russia's actions and not those of the US.

4. I am no friend of Israel, believe me. Upon that you may rely. If it makes you happy, I believe that they are worse than barbarians. But neither does the subject of the July War have anything to do with the subject at hand. I reiterate my offer in number three.

Giulietto Chiesa is one of the most principled leaders in Europe that I have ever encountered. I met him in Strasbourg soon after he became an MEP in 2004. The man to whom he owes his present position, Achille Occhetto was a great friend of my late partner.

However, I disagree with him on this matter. I believe that his opinion is biased by virtue of his being a Communist and having spent 20 years in Moscow as a correspondent. He is naturally going to be more sympathetic to Russia's interests than those of the West.

I have read articles written by him in La Stampa, and believe me when I tell you that he is no friend of America and it is not surprising that he would be no friend of Georgia since Georgia is so close to America and Saakashvilki is such a good friend of George Bush.

I will also insist on the fact that Georgia and Saakashvili do indeed consider Ossetians (from the South at least) to be its citizens and that those who fled to the North did so of their own volition. And Russia provided them with passports simply as a justification to involve itself more in the region, so I am not moved by that argument either.
 
I think the Dalai Lama is a total waste of space - who did nothing meaningful to protest the occupation of his country by China - except run away to somewhere else.

For the first time I find myself agreeing with you on something. I believe that he is a coward for signing the Seventeen Point Agreement and then for fleeing to India afterwards. I am in total disagreement with his Middle Way approach and believe that if he is to be a leader, then he should be a full leader and advocate for the full independence of his homeland and nothing less.

China has already various times proven itself to be a poor steward of Tibet and should be deprived of it forthwith.
 
I also find it interesting that when Chechnya attempted to declare its own independence in 1991 that Boris Yeltsin opposed it, arguing that if Chechnya seceded then other former Soviet Republics would want to secede as well. And yet now they are supporting the secession of South Ossetia and why? Because it aggrandises Russia.

They are not only barbarians, but they are hypocrites as well.
 
The "Golden rule" in any soverignty distpute is the will of the people - this is why I feel the actions of Russia are wholly justified.

I would also contrast this with the situation in Tibet - where my own country has conquered and is controlling people against their will. We (China) have clearly no legitimate right to be there and this occupation of people against their will is something that should rightly bring us shame.

The long term solution should be a democratic one - the people of South Ossetai and Abkhazia should be able to vote to determine their own affiliation - and the rest of the international community should respect this.

Your first point is actually inaccurate. In most (but not all) cases international law tends to favour territorial integrity over self determination. I have no idea why this is, but that is the way it is. This is no one maintains embassies in Taiwan, for example, but rather "interest sections" and such other nonsense.

I agree with your second point and believe that China has no right to be in Tibet.

I also agree with your third point. The problem is that when such a referendum was attempted, the Georgians who live in the region were not permitted a vote, and the process was flawed and thereby unrecognised by the international community.

If they wish to have another such referendum it must be free and fair with the participation of the Georgians and it must be done acording to international standards.
 
when I tell you that he is no friend of America and it is not surprising that he would be

friends of America - are right
rivals of America - are wrong.

OK. I've understood your position.

American history is full of barbarism. The genocide of Indians, the humiliation of afro-americans, the anti-Darwian trials, the epoch of McCarthy.

Your FBI and CIA are not much better than our KGB. Edgar Hoover wanted to imprison 12 000 Americans.

A newly declassified document shows that J. Edgar Hoover, the longtime director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, had a plan to suspend habeas corpus and imprison some 12,000 Americans he suspected of disloyalty.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/washington/23habeas.html
 
This is silly, as the comparison does not apply. For whatever the propaganda on the Russian and Ossetian side, Georgia never engaged in a full scale and overwhelmingly popular campaign of oppression and ethnic cleansing against the Ossetians as Milošević's Serbia did against the Albanians in Kosovo.

It should also not be forgotten that Kosovo's first attempt at independence in 1990 was only recognised by Albania. The rest of the international community did not recognise it. It was only later events which forced the issue.

Whatever the situation is in South Ossetia, they do still enjoy a high level of autonomy, which Serbia was recalcitrant in refusing to grant to Kosovo. Both Russia and Serbia sought to drag out the discussions of Kosovo's final status interminably, while maintaining the status quo. This was untenable, as Kosovo in the interim had no effective government, and was being administered by the UN.

As Serbia (and Russia) would not agree to autonomy, and the UN had no interest in remaining in Kosovo indefinitely, a decision had to be made. Russian and Serbian intransigence is responsible for Kosovo's independence. It is sad that they and so many others still can not understand this.

Also, your contention that "we" (whomever that may be) somehow acted inappropriately thereby giving Russia the green light to do the same is ridiculous. That is not how mature and sophisticated democracies work. We learn from our and other people's mistakes, we do not repeat them. That is the immature attitude that started this entire mess to begin with, and will prevent any real agreement from being reached at any time in the near future.

Chal The KLA did much to provoke the serbians and in any case I don't believe in such situations, when two sides are fighting over power, one side is innocent and the other evil.

It just doesn't happen that way IMO. The KLA were terrorists to the serbs and while the west didn't view them that way I have little doubt they would have had they been within any western countries borders. You can tell the story any way you wish but when the battle is engaged there is no moral high ground left for either side to claim.

Whatever the west may have been willing to agree to had it involved kosovo remaining apart of serbia the KLA would never have gone along with it.

In both georgia and kosovo I see small countries or wanna be countries manipulating the greater powers involved expressly to achieve their own ends.

To say the georgians didn't engage in ethnic cleansing when, had they, the russians would have responded overnight is to attempt to give them credit for not doing something they could not possibly do. You don't actually know what they might have done had a viable opportunity been available.

I never thought Iraq could ever have been a threat to the U.S. and I don't think a Georgia which is a part of NATO could be a threat to Russia but in both cases the powers involved thought differently and acted as they wished world opinion be dammed.

Thats how the big dogs behave.
 
Chal The KLA did much to provoke the serbians and in any case I don't believe in such situations, when two sides are fighting over power, one side is innocent and the other evil.

It just doesn't happen that way IMO. The KLA were terrorists to the serbs and while the west didn't view them that way I have little doubt they would have had they been within any western countries borders. You can tell the story any way you wish but when the battle is engaged there is no moral high ground left for either side to claim.

Whatever the west may have been willing to agree to had it involved kosovo remaining apart of serbia the KLA would never have gone along with it.

In both georgia and kosovo I see small countries or wanna be countries manipulating the greater powers involved expressly to achieve their own ends.

To say the georgians didn't engage in ethnic cleansing when, had they, the russians would have responded overnight is to attempt to give them credit for not doing something they could not possibly do. You don't actually know what they might have done had a viable opportunity been available.

I never thought Iraq could ever have been a threat to the U.S. and I don't think a Georgia which is a part of NATO could be a threat to Russia but in both cases the powers involved thought differently and acted as they wished world opinion be dammed.

Thats how the big dogs behave.

I must beg your forgiveness in advance, as this will be a very long post. Please bear with me, though.

I actually agree with you in that it normally does take two to tango, and the history of the Albanians and Serbs of Kosovo has been a long one of each side oppressing the other.

From the 12th Century when the Serbs first took the region from the Byzantine Empire, the Serbs systematically cleansed the area of Albanians forcing most of them to flee to the surrounding mountains. The Serbs then enacted various laws making it impossible for the Albanians to return to their homes and began a process of giving Albanian lands to Serbs and the Orthodox Church. Visoki Decani Monastery, the largest medieval church in the Balkans, was built in 1330 on Albanian lands gifted to it by its founder King Stefan Uroš III.

The monastery at Decani stands on a terrace commanding passes into High Albania. When Stefan Uros III founded it in 1330, he gave it many villages in the plain and catuns of Vlachs and Albanians between the Lim and the Beli Drim. Vlachs and Albanians had to carry salt for the monastery and provide it with serf labour. A large number of churches were sited strategically at Prizren and in 1348 Dusan is recorded as giving Albanian catuns to a monastery there. Metohija in fact was a great monastic estate.

As this comes from a JSTOR.com article, I cannot provide for you a link, as they are a subscription service.

Due to their conversion to Islam the Albanians of Kosovo were treated very well while under the Ottoman Empire from 1455 to 1912. In fact many Albanian chiefs converted to Islam and gained prominent positions in the Turkish regimen and if anything, grew important in Ottoman internal affairs.

The Serbs and other Christians on the other hand suffered a four and a half century decline in fortunes under the Ottomans had a very hard time of it with the Ottomans abolishing their Patriarchate and forcing many Serbs to flee to Austria during the Great Serb Migrations of 1690 and 1737.

This naturally would have caused some hard feelings between the two groups, I would imagine.

When the Kingdom of Serbia took Kosovo from the Ottomans in 1912, the Serbians immediately began a colonisation of Kosovo, moving numerous Serb families into the area, equalizing the demographic balance between Albanians and Serbs.

During World War I and the Great Serbian Retreat, when the Austrians and the Bulgarians managed to push the Serbian troops out of Kosovo, the Albanians pursued and attacked the retreating Serbs, who, additionally through starvation and extreme weather conditions eventually were to lose an estimated 100,000 soldiers along the way.

The return of the Serbian Army in 1918 brought reprisals and atrocities against the Albanians in Kosovo, which was made to form a part of the new Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, later Yugoslavia (1929).

By 1921 Albanian Kosovars asked the League of Nations to unite Kosovo with Albania. They alleged 12,000 Albanians had been killed and 22,000 imprisoned since 1918. A Kachak movement of armed Albanians seeking union with Albania developed. As a result Albanians in Kosovo were increasingly seen by Serbs as being an irridentist movement, subversive to the Yugoslav constitution.

In 1937 Vaso Cubrilovic wrote his Memorandum The expulsion of the Albanians, which is considered to be one of the main promotions of ethnic cleansing in the twentieth century.

At a time when Germany can expel tens of thousands of Jews and Russia can shift millions of people from one part of the continent to another, the evacuation of a few hundred thousand Albanians will not set off a world war. Be this as it may, decision-makers should know ahead of time what they want and unfalteringly pursue those goals, regardless of possible international repercussions.

As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways.

It is well known that the Moslem masses are generally readily influenced by religion and are prone to superstition and fanaticism. Therefore, we must first of all win over the clergy and men of influence through money and threats in order for them to give their support to the evacuation of the Albanians. Agitators, especially from Turkey, must be found as quickly as possible to promote the evacuation, if Turkey will provide them for us. They must laud the beauties of the new territories in Turkey and the easy and pleasant life to be had there, and must kindle religious fanaticism among the masses and awaken pride in the Turkish state. Our press can be of colossal assistance by describing how gently the evacuation of the Turks from Dobruja took place and how easily they settled in their new regions. Such information would create the requisite predisposition for the masses of Albanians to be willing to leave.

Another means would be coercion by the state apparatus. The law must be enforced to the letter so as to make staying intolerable for the Albanians: fines, imprisonment, the ruthless application of all police regulations, such as the prohibition of smuggling, cutting forests, damaging agriculture, leaving dogs unchained, compulsory labour and any other measure that an experienced police force can contrive.

From the economic aspect, this should include the refusal to recognize old land deeds. The work of the land registry should be accompanied from the start by the ruthless collection of taxes and the payment of all private and public debts, the requisitioning of all public and municipal pasture land, the cancellation of concessions, the withdrawal of permits to exercise an occupation, dismissal from government, private and municipal offices etc., all of which will speed up the process of evacuation.

Health measures should include the harsh application of all regulations, even within homes, the pulling down of encircling walls and high hedges around private houses, and the rigorous implementation of veterinary measures which will result in a ban on selling livestock on the market, etc. All these measures can be applied in a practical and effective way. The Albanians are very touchy when it comes to religion. They must therefore be harassed on this score, too. This can be achieved through the ill-treatment of their clergy, the demolition of their cemeteries, the prohibition of polygamy, and especially the inflexible application of the regulation compelling girls to attend elementary school, wherever they are.

Private initiative, too, can assist greatly in this direction. We should distribute weapons to our colonists, as need be. The old form of Chetnik action should be organized and secretly assisted. In particular, a mass migration of Montenegrins should be launched from the mountain pastures in order to create a large-scale conflict with the Albanians in Metohija. This conflict should be prepared and encouraged by people we can trust. This can be easily achieved since the Albanians have, indeed, revolted. The whole affair can be presented as a conflict between clans and, if need be, can be ascribed to economic reasons. Finally, local riots can be incited. These will be bloodily suppressed by the most effective means, though by colonists from the Montenegrin clans and the Chetniks, rather than by means of the army.

When Yugoslavia was conquered by the Axis powers in 1941, the greatest part of Kosovo became a part of Italian-controlled Greater Albania, and a smaller, Eastern part by the Nazi-Fascist Tsardom of Bulgaria and Nazi-German-occupied Kingdom of Serbia. Since the Albanian Fascist political leadership had decided in the Conference of Bujan that Kosovo would remain a part of Albania, they started expelling the Serbian and Montenegrin populations.

After World War II, Tito created the Autonomous Kosovo-Metohian Area to protect its regional Albanian majority. In the 1960's Kosovo gained inner autonomy and in the 1974 constitution, the Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo's government received higher powers, including the highest governmental titles — President and Premier and a seat in the Federal Presidency which made it a de facto Socialist Republic within the Federation, but remaining as a Socialist Autonomous Province within the Socialist Republic of Serbia. Tito had pursued a policy of weakening Serbia, as he believed that a "Weak Serbia equals a strong Yugoslavia". To this end Vojvodina and Kosovo became autonomous regions and were given the above entitled privileges as defacto republics.

In the 1970's, there sprang up various nationalist movements within the province, some seeking to name Kosovo a republic within Yugoslavia and other more extreme groups advocating for full independence. These were promptly and efficiently crushed by Tito, however.

During the 1980s, ethnic tensions continued with frequent violent outbreaks against Serbs and Yugoslav state authorities resulting in increased emigration of Kosovo Serbs and other ethnic groups. The Yugoslav leadership tried to suppress protests of Kosovo Serbs seeking protection from ethnic discrimination and violence.

It was during this time that Slobodan Milošević began his rise to power, and he began effectively utilising the ethnic tensions in order to assist his advancement. The Communist Party had sent him to Kosovo to address a crowd of Serbs in Kosovo Polje on April 24, 1987. While Milošević was talking to the leadership inside the local cultural hall demonstrators outside clashed with the local Kosovo-Albanian police force.

After hearing about the police brutality outside of the halls, Milošević came out and in an emotional moment promised the local Serbs that "Nobody would beat you again." This news byte was seen on evening news and catapulted then-unknown Milošević to the forefront of the current debate about the problems on Kosovo.

Since the 1974 Constitution, the Albanian-controlled communist officials in Kosovo had instituted a campaign of discrimination against non-Albanians. Serbs and other non-Albanians like the Roma, Turks and Macedonians, were fired from jobs and positions within the regional government apparatus. These repressions and grievances had been swept conveniently under the rug with the pretence of "Brotherhood and Unity" policy instituted by then already late Josip Broz Tito. Any reasoning to the contradictory, was quickly silenced. To the party leaderships chagrin, Mr. Milošević insisted on finding a solution for the Kosovo situation, he was quickly labelled as a reactionary.

In order to save his skin, Milošević fought back and established a political coup d'état. He gained effective leadership and control of the Serbian Communist party and pressed forward with the one issue that had catapulted him to the forefront of the political limelight, which was Kosovo. By the end of the 1980s, calls for increased federal control in the crisis-torn autonomous province were getting louder. Slobodan Milošević pushed for constitutional change amounting to suspension of autonomy for both Kosovo and Vojvodina.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_history_of_Kosovo

One of the events that contributed to Milošević's rise to power was the Gazimestan Speech, delivered on June 28, 1989 to 100,000 Serbs attending the celebration in Gazimestan to mark the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo. Many think that this speech helped Milošević consolidate his authority in Serbia.

This speech was considered by many to be a call to arms for Serbians to embrace their nationalism and to create a Greater Serbia by way of oppression and ethnic cleansing of the Albanians in Kosovo and other ethnic minorities in the other regions.

Former U.S. President Bill Clinton articulated the view of many Milošević critics when he told a veterans group that Milošević "sought to expand his power, by inciting religious and ethnic hatred in the cause of Greater Serbia; by demonizing and dehumanizing people, especially the Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims ... He unleashed wars in Bosnia and Croatia, creating 2 million refugees and leaving a quarter of a million people dead ... he stripped Kosovo of its constitutional self-government, and began harassing and oppressing its people."

The foundation of the war crimes charges against Milošević is based on the allegation that he sought the establishment of a "Greater Serbia". Prosecutors at the Hague argued that "the [Croatia, Bosnia, and Kosovo] indictments were all part of a common scheme, strategy or plan on the part of the accused [Milošević] to create a 'Greater Serbia', a centralized Serbian state encompassing the Serb-populated areas of Croatia and Bosnia and all of Kosovo, and that this plan was to be achieved by forcibly removing non-Serbs from large geographical areas through the commission of the crimes charged in the indictments. Although the events in Kosovo were separated from those in Croatia and Bosnia by more than three years, they were no more than a continuation of that plan, and they could only be understood completely by reference to what had happened in Croatia and Bosnia."[60]

Milošević was motivated to start the wars, his critics say, because of his murderous ambition to create an ethnically pure Greater Serbian state. Milošević's critics claim that forces under his command committed "atrocities against civilians as part of a systematic campaign to secure territory for an ethnically 'pure' Serb state."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobod...evi.C4.87.E2.80.99s_role_in_the_Yugoslav_wars

In 1989, Milošević, employing a mix of intimidation and political manoeuvring, drastically reduced Kosovo's special autonomous status within Serbia and started cultural oppression of the ethnic Albanian population.

Rogel, Carole. Kosovo: Where It All Began. International Journal of Politics, Culture, and Society, Vol. 17, No. 1 (September 2003): 167-182.

According to Howard Clark's Civil Resistance in Kosovo, Kosovo Albanians responded with a non-violent separatist movement, employing widespread civil disobedience and creation of parallel structures in education, medical care, and taxation, with the ultimate goal of achieving the independence of Kosovo.

Only after the Dayton Agreement ending the Bosnian War failed to address the question of Kosovo did the KLA appear and begin its armed resistance to Serbian and Yugoslav security forces, resulting in the early stages of the Kosovo War.

By this time, however, Serbian violence against and displacement of the Albanians ha finally garnered Western interest and the Serbs were forced to sign a ceasefire agreement monitored by OSCE observers.

Serbia broke this agreement and fighting continued, culminating in the Račak massacre in 1999, wherein 45 Kosovo Albanian civilians were systematically murdered by Yugoslav and Serbian security forces. You can read all about that incident here.

In its indictment of Slobodan Milošević and four other senior Yugoslav and Serbian officials, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia's Chief Prosecutor stated that:

On or about 15 January 1999, in the early morning hours, the village of Račak was attacked by forces of the FRY [Yugoslavia] and Serbia. After shelling by VJ [Yugoslav Army] units, the Serbian police entered the village later in the morning and began conducting house-to-house searches. Villagers, who attempted to flee from the Serb police, were shot throughout the village. A group of approximately 25 men attempted to hide in a building, but were discovered by the Serb police. They were beaten and then were removed to a nearby hill, where the policemen shot and killed them.

http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/mil-ii990524e.htm

I will not go into a full account of the entire conflict, as this post is already long enough. I simply wanted to elucidate for you the reasons why in this case the Albanians had a legitimate issue with the Serbs and that the KLA, while playing a part in the hostilities, were merely acting in defence of their own people who were suffering from the harsh treatment of the Serbs.

Call them terrorists if you wish, but the Albanians had no other protection, and no one from the West at the time was lifting a finger to do protect them. It is inconceivable that the Albanians would not seek to defend themselves somehow. If the KLA used guerilla tactics, it was because they were vastly outnumbered and overpowered by the Serb and Yugoslav armies.

The KLA was not a signatory to the final peace agreement between NATO and the Serbs and was immediately disbanded and co-opted into a new organisation called the Kosovo Protection Corps, which was charged with disaster response, search and rescue, assistance with de-mining, providing humanitarian assistance, and helping to rebuild infrastructure and communities. It is highly unlikely that they would therefore have had any effect on the subsequent final status negotiations backed by the UN.

International negotiations began in 2006 to determine the final status of Kosovo, as envisaged under UN Security Council Resolution 1244. The UN-backed talks, lead by UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari, began in February 2006. Whilst progress was made on technical matters, both parties remained diametrically opposed on the question of status itself.

In February 2007, Ahtisaari delivered a draft status settlement proposal to leaders in Belgrade and Pristina, the basis for a draft UN Security Council Resolution which proposes 'supervised independence' for the province. A draft resolution, backed by the United States, the United Kingdom and other European members of the Security Council, was presented and rewritten four times to try to accommodate Russian concerns that such a resolution would undermine the principle of state sovereignty. Russia, which holds a veto in the Security Council as one of five permanent members, had stated that it would not support any resolution which was not acceptable to both Belgrade and Kosovo Albanians. Whilst most observers had, at the beginning of the talks, anticipated independence as the most likely outcome, others have suggested that a rapid resolution might not be preferable.

After many weeks of discussions at the UN, the United States, United Kingdom and other European members of the Security Council formally 'discarded' a draft resolution backing Ahtisaari's proposal on 20 July 2007, having failed to secure Russian backing. Beginning in August, a "Troika" consisting of negotiators from the European Union (Wolfgang Ischinger), the United States (Frank Wisner) and Russia (Alexander Botsan-Kharchenko) launched a new effort to reach a status outcome acceptable to both Belgrade and Pristina. Despite Russian disapproval, the U.S., the United Kingdom, and France appeared likely to recognise Kosovar independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo

As to your comments regarding Georgia, I am frankly at a loss. What you are saying here is that Georgia, because it did not engage in ethnic cleansing, simply didn't do it because they couldn't but surely they wanted to.

Do you have any evidence of this? Can you verify this in any way? You cannot possibly justifiably accuse Georgia of wanting to commit ethnic cleansing if there has been no indication of this whatsoever. It makes no sense. It is akin to Stalin's purges wherein he had people murdered and imprisoned because he was afraid of what they MIGHT be thinking, but never had any evidence to back up his fears.

I agree with you that Georgia as a member of NATO could not possibly be a threat to Russia. But as the Russians are a paranoid bunch, it is highly unlikely that they will ever see such a scenario in any other light.
 
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