Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Kulindahr]

If nothing else shouldn’t they be training the kids because you don’t know what might happen next.

That's a good point. Train everyone, the way Israel does, and the enemy will know that advancing will just bring more defenders into the fight.

 

[Kulindahr]

I fear that not drafting the kids as policy and the draft being unpopular among the population probably means that the current government is as corrupt as those that governed before them

Huh? How is not drafting people a sign of corruption? There's no connection between the two.

It's probably just a cultural difference; as one opinion I encountered said, there's an attitude/conviction that everyone should have kids before putting their lives on the line.

 

[Kulindahr]

bound by complex contracts

Contracts with criminals are null and void -- this is just an excuse.

 

[rareboy]

That's a good point. Train everyone, the way Israel does, and the enemy will know that advancing will just bring more defenders into the fight.

In order to do that, they need the same influx of military aid over a long period from the US and the west that Israel has enjoyed.

 

[rareboy]

Contracts with criminals are null and void -- this is just an excuse.

That is so, but it would be ingenuous of us to think that contracts with criminals are a problem between multinational firms, including oil and gas companies.

Much like in WWII, the internecine global ties between industries and banks means that one side keeps doing business with the other side...often through intermediary companies set up to make it possible. It is why the US remains a supplier of electronics and a host of other products used by rrrZZia in their weapons and machinery.

 

[TX-Beau]

Contracts with criminals are null and void -- this is just an excuse.

This is not legally accurate. Contracts are binding based on their compliance with the laws in a jurisdiction, not the legal disposition of the parties involved. If your landlord goes to prison for murder, you still owe him rent.

 

[rareboy]

I guess in an effort to seem relevant to the Kremlin...Lukashenka of Belarus has said that his country will be ready to help rrrZZZia in peace negotiations.

A man with zero credibility on the international stage...who allowed rrrZZia to attack Ukraine through Belarus in the first instance, posturing as though he should have any role in this war.

By now he should also be hanging upside down in the city square.

 

[Norri]

You could draft every person over the age of 18, but if you don't have the resources to train all of them and don't have the weapons or ammunition to send them to fight, it is a pretty useless gesture.

I don't see how this even remotely smacks of 'corruption'.

This has nothing to do with their resources, weapons or ammunition this is about why did they choose not to draft the demographic group of men that every other country in the world uses to do their fighting. I don’t know the answer to that question but I would like to. If they have the funds to train 35 yr olds they have the funds to train 25 yr olds they just choose not to.
And the corruption I’m referring to has nothing to do with this policy (I think) the Ukraine has had corrupt governments since they were set free from Soviet Russia and have had revolutions because of that corruption. We would like to think that such corruption has declined since they are at war but we don’t know but the citizens of the Ukraine do and when I see a country complaining about the draft and exempting the kids from battle I can’t help but think they don’t want to fight for a government they think corrupt.

There is no ‘long term consideration’ for a country at war because if you loose the long term is no longer yours to decide.

It may be that the reason most of the aid Ukraine has received is in the form of weapons and not money (which could be used to train) is because the west doesn’t trust them with easy to disappear money so gives them weapons which they are more likely to use as intended.

 

[Norri]

Huh? How is not drafting people a sign of corruption? There's no connection between the two.

It’s not the policy that is corrupt it’s the government in the opinion of its citizens that is so they are reluctant to fight. Is it possible that the reason not to draft the kids is the fear they simply won’t show up? That would surely curtail their future aid.

 

[TX-Beau]

It’s not the policy that is corrupt it’s the government in the opinion of its citizens that is so they are reluctant to fight. Is it possible that the reason not to draft the kids is the fear they simply won’t show up? That would surely curtail their future aid.

Where are you getting info that says Ukrainians are unwilling to fight and dislike their government?

 

[opinterph]

I can’t help but think they don’t want to fight for a government they think corrupt.

Can you think of any other reason(s) young Ukrainians might not desire to join their country's military forces in the war with Russia?

 

[rareboy]

Where are you getting info that says Ukrainians are unwilling to fight and dislike their government?

This.

And why would anyone think that 18 year olds make great soldiers.

Soldiers over 25 have more maturity and focus than kids.

It is very expensive to train and outfit soldiers. Why wouldn't you select those who fight the best. In many cases, they will have completed post-secondary schooling and actually have trades and skills to offer in the military.

 

[Norri]

Where are you getting info that says Ukrainians are unwilling to fight and dislike their government?

I’m judging by their actions. If you can look at a country having been invaded by a much larger country that sets its draft age at 27 and do not see a problem then I wouldn’t know how to convince you. The evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Norri]

This.

And why would anyone think that 18 year olds make great soldiers.

Soldiers over 25 have more maturity and focus than kids.

It is very expensive to train and outfit soldiers. Why wouldn't you select those who fight the best. In many cases, they will have completed post-secondary schooling and actually have trades and skills to offer in the military.

Young single men with high testosterone are your best fighters and training them properly will make them great soldiers . These men are mostly single, have no children and pulling them out of the general economy will be less disruptive than taking men who have been working in it for yrs.
They need more soldiers but in my opinion are afraid to lower the draft age to 18. They were always susceptible to a war of attrition and now they are getting it.
I’m sorry but something don’t smell right.

 

[rareboy]

^^No it doesn't.

You seem to have some very superficial grasp of the situation and the realities of modern warfare. As well as some strange perspective on Ukrainian governance.

All the soldiers in the world aren't preventing rrrZZia from shelling and bombing Ukraine. It takes technology and systems to do this.

Handing an 18 year old a gun and throwing them into a meat grinder won't win the war. It didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work here.

 

[rareboy]

^^No it doesn't.

You seem to have some very superficial grasp of the situation and the realities of modern warfare. As well as some strange perspective on Ukrainian governance.

All the soldiers in the world aren't preventing rrrZZia from shelling and bombing Ukraine. It takes technology and systems to do this.

Handing an 18 year old a gun and throwing them into a meat grinder won't win the war. It didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work here.

I repeat again. It is costly and difficult to train soldiers now. Testosterone doesn't mean good soldiering. As it is the western countries are only able to take so many of Ukraine's soldiers to train.

It takes years usually to bring them up to be the type of fighters that are needed in modern warfare. And there is no purpose to having a huge standing army of conscripts that don't have the weapons and equipment to fight with on the front line.

Rzzzia is currently losing between 5 to 10 times the numbers of fighters, precisely because they are not training them.

The only reason something doesn't smell right to you about this is because you apparently have pre-conceptions and biases based on right wing media narratives and a very outdated understanding of warfare.

 

[TX-Beau]

I’m judging by their actions. If you can look at a country having been invaded by a much larger country that sets its draft age at 27 and do not see a problem then I wouldn’t know how to convince you. The evidence speaks for itself.

You haven't presented any evidence—just supposition. Again, point me to the source that says Ukrainians won't fight and think their government is corrupt. It would seem that drafting people at 25 would imply that people 25 and up did not want to fight. I don't believe that's the case either.

 

[Norri]

^^No it doesn't.

You seem to have some very superficial grasp of the situation and the realities of modern warfare. As well as some strange perspective on Ukrainian governance.

All the soldiers in the world aren't preventing rrrZZia from shelling and bombing Ukraine. It takes technology and systems to do this.

Handing an 18 year old a gun and throwing them into a meat grinder won't win the war. It didn't work in Vietnam and it won't work here.

My superficial grasp of modern warfare tells me that the determinative technology in this war is from the last century not this one. From the start this has been a land war with the infantry doing the fighting. Shells matter but the bombing of cities or the drone attacks are secondary to the soldiers fighting on the ground and the territory they are gaining or losing. That is where the action is not in the skies overhead, bombing alone has never won a war.

The fact that it takes time to train soldiers is only an argument that they should have been doing this when they were invaded.


I have not seen anything on any right wing website concerning this perhaps you can direct me to one, I haven’t read anything beyond the story of lowering the draft age……and I didn’t need to.

The Ukrainians are going to loose territory when this is over and those running the war are going to have some explaining to do.

 

[rareboy]

Thank you for clarifying the basis of your false take on this.

So Ukraine, already sold out by the west in the Minsk accords should have spent the 3 months before rrrZZia invaded to draft everyone over the age of 18 and without any of the resources to do it, train all of them to fight. Without tanks, without the thousands of other vehicles and drones and shells and weapons that it would take to mount a full offence. And without the full aid of the US and Europe who grudgingly and sparingly provided enough after months of war, but not enough to reach deeply in behind the rrrZZian defensive lines that they were able to create while everyone outside of Ukraine played armchair generals.

You are dead wrong that the infantry is somehow fighting the war with hand weapons. This war includes rrrZZZia using shelling and bombs to create vast dead zones and firing into the locations of ground forces daily.

At this point, because they are not being provided with the necessary ammunition to execute the war, they are struggling to hold defensive lines.

Without ammuntion it doesn't matter how fucking many soldiers are on the ground.

 

[Norri]

You haven't presented any evidence—just supposition. Again, point me to the source that says Ukrainians won't fight and think their government is corrupt. It would seem that drafting people at 25 would imply that people 25 and up did not want to fight. I don't believe that's the case either.

Thank you for clarifying the basis of your false take on this.

So Ukraine, already sold out by the west in the Minsk accords should have spent the 3 months before rrrZZia invaded to draft everyone over the age of 18 and without any of the resources to do it, train all of them to fight. Without tanks, without the thousands of other vehicles and drones and shells and weapons that it would take to mount a full offence. And without the full aid of the US and Europe who grudgingly and sparingly provided enough after months of war, but not enough to reach deeply in behind the rrrZZian defensive lines that they were able to create while everyone outside of Ukraine played armchair generals.

You are dead wrong that the infantry is somehow fighting the war with hand weapons. This war includes rrrZZZia using shelling and bombs to create vast dead zones and firing into the locations of ground forces daily.

At this point, because they are not being provided with the necessary ammunition to execute the war, they are struggling to hold defensive lines.

Without ammuntion it doesn't matter how fucking many soldiers are on the ground.

I don’t know why you feel the need to exaggerate my position I never said they should draft everyone over the age of 18, I have only indicated that I believe everyone over the age of 18 should be available to be drafted since their country is at war. And I never said the infantry was fighting with hand weapons I mentioned the importance of shells which are not hand weapons. Try and respond to what I have said as that should be the reason you are responding.

Yes they were sold out by the west (particularly the U.S. and GB) and in 2014 they lost the Crimea with barely a fight perhaps that would have been a good time to start military planning for the future and beef up your forces instead of relying on those very countries that failed you in the past.

I support the Ukraine and want them to win but relying on the kindness of strangers is a poor military strategy.