Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Kulindahr]

Russia will just let Moscow and the rest of Russia be blown to bits

Where is that bizarre idea coming from? No one would blow Moscow to bits, that would be a waste of missiles. They'll blow fuel sources for the military to bits, and they'll take out rail bridges (and trains) used to get supplies to the front, and any military facility that is involved in strikes against Ukraine, but they aren't going to be like Russia and blow random things up,

 

[Kulindahr]

high-powered missiles

The "high power" of missiles that can be fired from ATACMS isn't in their payload, it's in their range and precision. And warheads can be altered to fit the target; if Ukraine wanted to hit a specific site in, say, Volgograd, and that site was a single office in an office building they'd likely tailor the warhead to just penetrate the outer wall and just wipe out that office.
Precision like that is far more terrifying in the long run anyway; it says that if you piss off Ukraine, they won't blow up random stuff, they'll blow up your stuff -- and maybe not even you with it; it would leave you unable to do your job because your office is gone, and besides you're shaking and practically shitting yourself just thinking of going to work because what if they do it again while you're there?!? And all your colleagues in their neighboring offices will quietly try to do anything to piss off Ukraine so their office won't be next.

Heck, at this point Ukraine could probably hit some Russian general when he's on the toilet and not even bother the rest of the house; not that there would be much point to that -- it might have a better effect if they wiped out the rest of the house and left the general sitting there needing the toilet for a new reason.

 

[rareboy]

There is a big difference between drones and high-powered missiles. I wonder why those on the far left who are worried about gas powered weed eaters and such are so willing to risk something so much worse. I am worried because I do not wish to see cities such as NYC, LA, Houston or London hit with nukes. Austin's chances of being targeted are pretty slim, so maybe you might feel different if you were closer to a target such as NASA or some other high value target.

So all of this is because you somehow think that Houston is a target? And you are only afraid for your own hide? Maybe you should move to Austin.

 

[ravenstone]

So all of this is because you somehow think that Houston is a target? And you are only afraid for your own hide? Maybe you should move to Austin.

South of Houston, as NASA, would be a target. Austin is too far away from the Gulf of Mexico and gets too cold.

 

[TX-Beau]

South of Houston, as NASA, would be a target. Austin is too far away from the Gulf of Mexico and gets too cold.

LOL, No one is going to bother to target NASA. You'd have better luck convincing people that Putin is targeting all those fragrant oil refineries that make life in the swamp so pleasant. Austin is not appreciably colder than Houston. When it's cold here - a huge value judgement anyway since actual people living in actual cold places would just laugh at that - it'd generally cold there. Wet cold is no more pleasant than wet heat.

 

[rareboy]

NASA has zero strategic value. But it says a lot about someone that their whole worldview is worrying that they are close to a possible target but won't move because it 'might be cold'.

 

[ravenstone]

NASA has zero strategic value. But it says a lot about someone that their whole worldview is worrying that they are close to a possible target but won't move because it 'might be cold'.

Well, you will soon get your wish for a more serious war, looks like Biden is once again giving in to Zelenskyy and is going to allow strikes deep in Russia. I think it says a lot that you don't think WW3 is nothing to worry about. Zelenskyy after Russia responds to these strikes deep in Russia with devastating retaliation will soon be back demanding more powerful weapons. Zelenskyy will not be happy until he starts a world war.

 

[TX-Beau]

Well, you will soon get your wish for a more serious war, looks like Biden is once again giving in to Zelenskyy and is going to allow strikes deep in Russia. I think it says a lot that you don't think WW3 is nothing to worry about. Zelenskyy after Russia responds to these strikes deep in Russia with devastating retaliation will soon be back demanding more powerful weapons. Zelenskyy will not be happy until he starts a world war.

If Putin wants to end his bloody invasion, he can. It's no one's fault but his, and it looks silly trying to blame everyone but the criminal for his crimes. I suppose in your head, Putin commits genocide, and everyone else must surrender to him - or NASA is going to get nuked.

 

[rareboy]

Well, you will soon get your wish for a more serious war, looks like Biden is once again giving in to Zelenskyy and is going to allow strikes deep in Russia. I think it says a lot that you don't think WW3 is nothing to worry about. Zelenskyy after Russia responds to these strikes deep in Russia with devastating retaliation will soon be back demanding more powerful weapons. Zelenskyy will not be happy until he starts a world war.

Once again, you accuse Zelensky of wanting WW3. You never accuse Putin of it...even though he is the aggressor. I find this incredibly telling.
rrrZZZia is firing long range missiles with devastating results deep into Ukraine every day, but you don't think that Ukraine should be able to do the same.

The calculus has changed now that Iran has started supplying long range missiles to Russia. They didn't have to. They didn't have to supply Rxxxia with thousands of Shahed drones that have been blanketing Ukraine for over two years now.

Similarly, North Korea didn't have to supply weapons to rrrzzxia. Nor did China have to provide equipment and support to rrrxxia for the last two years.

I will repeat once more for those in the back seats...this is WWIII. This is what it looks like:

The western democratic nations trying to prevent Putin from reassembling the Soviet Empire against the Asian powers that want the end to liberal democracies.

And Putin started it.

 

[ravenstone]

Once again, you accuse Zelensky of wanting WW3. You never accuse Putin of it...even though he is the aggressor. I find this incredibly telling.
rrrZZZia is firing long range missiles with devastating results deep into Ukraine every day, but you don't think that Ukraine should be able to do the same.

The calculus has changed now that Iran has started supplying long range missiles to Russia. They didn't have to. They didn't have to supply Rxxxia with thousands of Shahed drones that have been blanketing Ukraine for over two years now.

Similarly, North Korea didn't have to supply weapons to rrrzzxia. Nor did China have to provide equipment and support to rrrxxia for the last two years.

I will repeat once more for those in the back seats...this is WWIII. This is what it looks like:

The western democratic nations trying to prevent Putin from reassembling the Soviet Empire against the Asian powers that want the end to liberal democracies.

And Putin started it.

WW3 is London and other western cities, along with Russian cities with mushroom clouds over them. There would be no war if Ukraine hadn't attacked its own people in far Eastern Ukraine. The US, China, Russia and Ukraine should sit down and hold peace talks. Zelenskyy wants everything his way, all his way peace talks have gone nowhere.

 

[rareboy]

[Text: Removed]

Once again...It is rrrXXXzia that invaded and illegally seized portions of Ukraine.

Putin and the Kremlin have been working since the 1990's to retake Ukraine because of its mineral wealth and for control of the Azov and Black Seas.

It is rrrZZia that at every turn has violated the previous agreements that were made.

You apparently belive that rrrZZia is entitled to invade and take territory from a sovereign state. And that a sovereign state should simply yield this without question. Incomprehensible.

I do not. Ruzzia is the aggressor, they have committed hundred of war crimes and atrocities against the people of Ukraine including mass murders in Bucha, Mariupol and other places.

The soviet empire is not simply entitled to seizing countries any more, the way that they did after WWII. The rrrXXian oligarchs that strip all the wealth from their own country are not entitled to simply steal the resources and wealth of other states.

If the Kremlin and Putin are simply allowed to have their way again and seize Ukraine the way that they did in Georgia and Transnistria and the eastern Donbass and Crimea, they will not stop and your appeasement strategy only emboldens them to exert greater and greater control.

The west has woken up and finally realizes that the Kremlin has invaded their governments in the most insidious ways and is spreading and supporting anti-democratic autocracy that can be manipulated by them for the profit of a few hundred billionaires.

Fortunately, even recently, the US DoJ has put a stop to yet another Kremlin financed propaganda machine aimed at undermining North American democracy.

I get that you would see any country give in and give up because [Text: Removed]. There are likely millions like you, just like there were before America had to enter WWI and until it had to enter WWII because of America's own interests.

We are never going to agree on this subject, in part because you bring nothing to the discussion except [Text: Removed] and very shallow opinions that do not seem to be backed up by any study or sources other than pro-Kremlin propaganda.

 

[ravenstone]

[Text: Removed]

Once again...It is rrrXXXzia that invaded and illegally seized portions of Ukraine.

Putin and the Kremlin have been working since the 1990's to retake Ukraine because of its mineral wealth and for control of the Azov and Black Seas.

It is rrrZZia that at every turn has violated the previous agreements that were made.

You apparently belive that rrrZZia is entitled to invade and take territory from a sovereign state. And that a sovereign state should simply yield this without question. Incomprehensible.

I do not. Ruzzia is the aggressor, they have committed hundred of war crimes and atrocities against the people of Ukraine including mass murders in Bucha, Mariupol and other places.

The soviet empire is not simply entitled to seizing countries any more, the way that they did after WWII. The rrrXXian oligarchs that strip all the wealth from their own country are not entitled to simply steal the resources and wealth of other states.

If the Kremlin and Putin are simply allowed to have their way again and seize Ukraine the way that they did in Georgia and Transnistria and the eastern Donbass and Crimea, they will not stop and your appeasement strategy only emboldens them to exert greater and greater control.

The west has woken up and finally realizes that the Kremlin has invaded their governments in the most insidious ways and is spreading and supporting anti-democratic autocracy that can be manipulated by them for the profit of a few hundred billionaires.

Fortunately, even recently, the US DoJ has put a stop to yet another Kremlin financed propaganda machine aimed at undermining North American democracy.

I get that you would see any country give in and give up [Text: Removed]. There are likely millions like you, just like there were before America had to enter WWI and until it had to enter WWII because of America's own interests.

We are never going to agree on this subject, in part because you bring nothing to the discussion except [Text: Removed] and very shallow opinions that do not seem to be backed up by any study or sources other than pro-Kremlin propaganda.

I would not feel the same if it was any other country. Russia and Ukraine share a history and culture, I would also feel different if Ukraine hadn't treated their own people in Eastern Ukraine so badly.

 

[Norri]

I would not feel the same if it was any other country. Russia and Ukraine share a history and culture, I would also feel different if Ukraine hadn't treated their own people in Eastern Ukraine so badly.

Evidently the Ukraines don’t care for the Russian concept of sharing a freedom you seem willing to deny them. Putin has only threatened to use tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield but you already have western cities being destroyed, [Text: Removed] with thoughts of mushroom clouds.

Before those clouds come the tactical weapons and then we’ll see what the western response is, that would be a better time to make your point [Text: Removed].

 

[opinterph]

Moderator Reminder

When debating, express your opinion about a person's ideas, not about them personally.

 

[opinterph]

Zelenskyy wants everything his way

What elements of Zelenskyy's plan(s) do you regard as unreasonable, or that should be amended?

What is Zelenskyy’s 10-point peace plan? (Aljazeera; December 2022)

"This month, our meeting with President Biden is scheduled. I will present him with the victory plan – a system of interconnected decisions that will give Ukraine enough strength to set this war on the path to peace," Zelenskyy stated.

Zelenskyy announces meeting with Biden and reveals details (RBC-Ukraine; September 13, 2024)

 

[rareboy]

My opinion is that there is nothing unreasonable about it. Period.

But it does date from December 2022, and since that time, after committing genocide and forced dislocations, rrrzzzia has not shown the least intention of meeting any of the plan points.

So the ones that are now moot should be replaced by even stronger demands on Putin and the RRschianz.

Nor have they actually provided any credible or constructive response. Instead, they continue their scorched earth campaign of bombing civilian infrastructure, residential apartments, power stations ets. They are actively depopulating the region they are fighting in because they don't actually want anyone there. They only want what is underground in the whole region. Since 2022 they have committed ecocide on such a scale that the damage runs to the hundreds of millionsand billions of dollars.

Since the early years of the Soviet Unionwhen the USSR effectively seized and occupied the state of Ukraine, rrrZZia has continually raped and pillaged the country, including the Holodomor, which was an act of genocide intended to kill off Ukranians. It is no wonder that during WWII, the sympathies of so many were with the Germans against Stalin.

The only reason that since the war there is so much 'shared' culture is because Moscow pursues a policy of moving in ethnic rrrZZZians to the countries they occupied. We have seen this over and over and over...the colonial empire strategy of displacement. It is one of the reasons that Canada and the US had so many displaced Ukranians immigrating. Since 1920's we have all stood by as rrzzia stole everything from the Ukranian Tatars and effectively wiped them out while giving ethnic rrrzzians all that the stole.

It is time that the peace plan be updated to calculate the reparations owed to Ukraine for all the damage done.

And maybe that a demilitarized zone is required to be imposed in rrrzian territory.

 

[ravenstone]

What elements of Zelenskyy's plan(s) do you regard as unreasonable, or that should be amended?

What is Zelenskyy’s 10-point peace plan? (Aljazeera; December 2022)

I think you need all sides at peace talks.

 

[rareboy]

A non-answer.

 

[opinterph]

I think you need all sides at peace talks.

Your earlier post suggested that there was a basis of argument to support the notion that the demands or expectations of Zelenskyy were an obstacle to peace. You specifically indicated that it was inappropriate for him to want everything that he wants.

Thus, it is sensible to anticipate that you have reviewed those matters in some detail and are prepared to share your opinion to indicate what portion(s) of Zelenskyy's proposed terms are unreasonable, or at least how you think they should be subject to revision.

 

[Norri]

He never answered my question either concerning how the countries that are currently supplying Russia with weapons would respond to Putin’s use of nuclear weapons. Give him credit he’s unlikely to get caught up in pesky details.