scared of going to hell?

[lickya42000]

Don't over analyze it. You're probably just having a nervous reaction to the situation...after all, you kinda do have a "secret" that he doesn't know about. So when he mentioned the word "secret," it triggered this nervousness and anxiety on you. So, just let it be and forget about it. His mentioning of "secret" could have a lot of meanings. He could have meant about other sins like lying, adultery, stealing, or whatever. However, if there's a trend with his remarks, meaning that he constantly makes these kind of subtle remarks about this, then maybe you should consider the option of coming out. Again, don't over analyze it.

Hope this brought you peace of mind!

 

[CGHJ]

I hate to say this but it's been my experience that people that you hope don't know, generally know. It's hard to keep something like that from your family.

However, you should in no way be scare of going to hell. The place doesn't exist. Jesus wouldn't have believed in it, as he was a jewish rabbi and hell & satan aren't part of jewish theology. And even if it did exist, you wouldn't go there for being gay, despite what some people think it's not actually in the bible that you shouldn't do that.

Now as for coming out...I dunno. I generally counsel yes because to live a lie wears on you, and they likely know anyway. If your bro is so misguided as to say something like "I'd sacrifice my soul so a gay family member could get to heaven"...on the one hand that's kinda sweet that he's ready to sacrifice himself for you...on the other hand, WTF? There's no need for anyone to sacrifice anything. Perhaps it's time they come to terms with a new reality. But it sounds like they're not quite living in reality now...so in this case, only you know them well enough.

Good luck! And don't worry about your afterlife, there is absolutely no hell and being gay is no sin anyway. You will eventually have to teach your family this. There's lots of resources online and prolly in the JUB forum that tackle the theological discussions of why being gay is not a sin and not really in the bible...I'd arm yourself with that info first.

 

[luminum]

My theory is, that if God made me this way, if he wanted me to be at peace with myself and find joy and love in my life, put me through all this crap from his followers, and then because of it sent me to Hell, all the while never stepping in to clear up the confusion, then bring it.

If that's the god that's ruling the universe, then I'm anti-establisment.

Here's the only relevant thing Chirst ever said about gay men:

Matthew 19:11-12

Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

How is this about gay men (and celebit nuns and priests)? Have you ever heard of a eunuch (castrated male, not interested in women) who was 'born that way'?

From the site:

"Typically a eunuch is defined as a castrated male. This is incorrect. Castration means to remove the testicles (that were already there) or emasculate. If all eunuchs were castrated males then why would Jesus say that "some were born that way?" A eunuch is a man who has no desire or ability to have sexual relations with a woman. These men were commonly used to protect the harems. Since the Word of God is for everyone we can apply the spiritual concept found in Galatians 3:28 where the Apostle Paul says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Therefore, a eunuch can be male or female in this passage.

Jesus addressed three types of eunuchs.

1. Those born that way. (That's people like me who are born gay.)

2. Those made that way by men. (Those castrated or those sexually abused people who choose to be gay as a result of this abuse rather than because it is their natural sexual affinity.)

3. Those who elect not to have a sexual relationship for the sake of the kingdom. (For example a priest or nun. This group makes the decision on their own.)

So here, our Lord Jesus states that not everyone will marry according to the custom as in male and female. He also said that not everyone can accept this. He says that those that can accept it should accept it. Can you accept what Jesus said? I can."

 

[WillMc88]

Very interesting point Luminum! I've read that scripture many times, but never even considered the first type of eunuch mentioned. I'll definately look into this further. Thanks !

 

[Runewell]

Yay! Spreading the Word, ain't it great? Excellent post, Luminum.

 

[luminum]

I can't take the credit. I found this description years ago when i joined a gay christian teen msn group. But I found it again on christiangay.com

 

[littlelarry]

From christiangay.com to Queer As Folk. Ted to Emmett... "I think God appreciates it even more, because He created you in His image. At least that's what I was taught. And since God is love and God doesn't make mistakes, then you must be exactly the way He wants you to be. The way He intended you to be. And that goes for every person, every planet, every mountain, every grain of sand, every song, every tear,... ... ... and every faggot. We're all His, Emmett, and He loves us all."

 

[Nonimus]

My theory is, that if God made me this way, if he wanted me to be at peace with myself and find joy and love in my life, put me through all this crap from his followers, and then because of it sent me to Hell, all the while never stepping in to clear up the confusion, then bring it.


If that's the god that's ruling the universe, then I'm anti-establisment.

Here's the only relevant thing Chirst ever said about gay men:

Matthew 19:11-12

Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

How is this about gay men (and celebit nuns and priests)? Have you ever heard of a eunuch (castrated male, not interested in women) who was 'born that way'?

From the site:

"Typically a eunuch is defined as a castrated male. This is incorrect. Castration means to remove the testicles (that were already there) or emasculate. If all eunuchs were castrated males then why would Jesus say that "some were born that way?" A eunuch is a man who has no desire or ability to have sexual relations with a woman. These men were commonly used to protect the harems. Since the Word of God is for everyone we can apply the spiritual concept found in Galatians 3:28 where the Apostle Paul says: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Therefore, a eunuch can be male or female in this passage.

Jesus addressed three types of eunuchs.

1. Those born that way. (That's people like me who are born gay.)

2. Those made that way by men. (Those castrated or those sexually abused people who choose to be gay as a result of this abuse rather than because it is their natural sexual affinity.)

3. Those who elect not to have a sexual relationship for the sake of the kingdom. (For example a priest or nun. This group makes the decision on their own.)

So here, our Lord Jesus states that not everyone will marry according to the custom as in male and female. He also said that not everyone can accept this. He says that those that can accept it should accept it. Can you accept what Jesus said? I can."

Luminum, that has to be one of the best arguments i've ever read - well thought and factual - I'd never even considered the writings about eunuchs - well done mate

 

[3nipples]

Sorry guys, but this eunuch argument is based on the false supposition that eunuchs are not interested in sex, which is crap. The whole point of having them in the harem was to keep the women contented without the risk of them becoming pregnant.

To get back to the concerns of the thread, you brother may have his suspicions but he probably doesn't KNOW. People will often make off the cuff remarks about gays because it doesn't occur to them (even when they have suspicions) that the one they are talking to could actually be hurt by what they are saying.

In my own experience, once they KNEW that I was gay, the stupid remarks dried up completely, to be replaced by supportive comments and acceptance.

Nobody who believes in heaven and hell will sacrifice their own soul to save another. There is no sense in it, not unless they believe in ultimately being redeemed because of the sacrifice, in which case it isn't really a sacrifice...

There is not much point in trying to counter the kinds of arguments that your brother is making with reason. I would suggest finding a simple, hitting remark and repeating it like a litany every time the opportunity comes up and then walking away from the argument.

In your case it could be something like "I'm sorry you missed the part about brotherly love".

A better suggestion would be to come out to him and then finding out if he was really your brother or just an asshole who shares some of your genes.

 

[CoolBlue71]

Me and my brother were talking about religion and i had stated that i don't believe jessus was any part devine. I said he just a very great man who may or may have not done miracles. We got into this whole argument but at the very end my brother said to me "I think you have a secret and that is why you are afraid to believe in jesus christ. You are scared of going to hell." Mind you i have not come out to my brother. Everyone in my family knows except for my father and him. He is so homophbic sometimes. Do you think he knows about me.??? I think he knows he just doesnt want to talk about it. He has also stated that if someone in the family is gay he would sacrafice his soul to save the gay peron so they could go to heaven. What the hell kind of talk is taht shit. Do you guys thik i should come out to him?????

Just because you're brothers doesn't mean you can or should talk about everything. (Hint, hint!)

 

[Eagle653]

Mind you i have not come out to my brother. Everyone in my family knows except for my father and him.

My experience has been that when "everyone in my family knows, except..." that the "exceptions" know too. Some information is just too juicy not to pass on in one way or another. I suspect he already knows, or has guessed, or something. So, coming out to him would not be news to him, but may get this whole thing out in the open so you can clear the air.

Good luck.

 

[guy123]

Sorry luminum, but you took that quote completely out of context, it has to do with marriage and divorce, very easy to tell if you read the prior versus. Here is a link to what it actually means...

http://www.bible.org/qa.asp?topic_id=5&qa_id=13

 

[luminum]

Be that as it may (and I point out that this is taken from christiangay.com, and not my own research) my real rationalization is with my earlier statement about the duality of such a thing between my own creation and God.

The Biblical citation is merely what I've heard and only used as a second means of rationalization.

 

[eruvawen]

You not going to Hell your already there .
Just look around you and the World .
Hell is on earth and there is no heaven its just told us from religious book?that´s have be written from somekind of men for a long long time you really believe in that?

 

[Snade]

L'enfer, c'est les autres. (Hell is other people.) --Jean-Paul Sartre, Huis Clos (No Exit)

 

[KingofFaeries]

It seems there are a lot of christians on this site *shrug* anyway.

Let me start by saying that I'm not christian anymore, I claim no responsibility for what other people have told, and I like to argue. You'll understand why I put that last bit in in a minute.

CGHJ you said that condemnation of homosexuals was not in the bible. According to my pastor, this stupid little video I was shown in church when I was like 10 (I took it really hard then, I was die hard christian then) and several of the christians I have debated this about. In the passages concerning sodom and gommorah, it says something, when listing the sins of the people of SaG, along the lines of, men lying with men as they would lie with women. I can't quote it, because I'm lazy and don't want to go find one of the online bibles, and because I have long since discarded my own. Then somewhere in the new testament, Jesus is speaking of marriage as being ordained between a man and a woman. That one comes from my pastor not the others, because my pastor was believe it or not understanding when I came out. The video and the others i debated with were much more happy with the old testament stoning type punishments that would have been dealt for homosexuality. But again, I may have remembered wrong, but I KNOW!!!! that the sodom and gommorah thing is true, cuz I reread that passage everyday for like 3 months! But my memory fails me so I can't quote it. Plus that's where we get the term sodomy from. Of course sodomy is defined as any sexual act that isn't a man sticking his penis into a woman's vagina. (See now why I added the 'I like to argue'thing)

Now back to the reason for this thread. It is my belief that neither heaven nor hell exist so my advice will probably have no bearing for you what so ever. Don't be scared of going to hell. lol.

Your brother "knows" that you are gay, so I don't see the problem with coming out. Things will happen the way they happen nothing you can do about it. So roll the dice and take a chance. Oh the reason I say your bother "knows" is because like the other guy said he COULD be talking about other sins, but short of murdering someone, or one of the other bigger sins (the ones that you can't be forgiven for) there's not much else that he could be talking about. Homosexuality in and of itself isn't a condemnable sin, it is when you act on it that you are condemned. So you would have to repeatedly engage in gay sex to be sent to hell.

No offense but your brother to me sounds like a moron. Course I feel that way about anyone that says something like I'd sacrifice my own soul to save a gay member of my family's soul. I mean based on the bibles description of god, doesn't the switch seem more like something the devil would accept than god? Just because you might want to take the place of someone else in hell, does NOT! mean that god would let that happen. We are each responsible for ourselves. Otherwise every good mother would be in hell, when her kids messed up and killed someone or some nonsense like that.

So there you are.

 

[CGHJ]

Here's what Flavius Josephus, a Jewish historian from the time of Christ has to say about S & G:

"Now, about this time the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from Him, hated foreigners and avoided any contact with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance, and not only to uproot their city, but to blast their land so completely that it should yield neither plant nor fruit whatsoever from that time forward." Jewish Antiquities 1:194-195

I did just look it up in the bible too, it's Genesis 18 for the curious, and all it says is "because their sin was very grave." It says nothing about them getting it on. When Lot's there trying to save people and they surround the house, the crowd says "send the dudes out so that we may know them". People get hung up on the biblical "to know", as in Adam knew Eve. But you'd have to be an idiot to get "Send them out so we can rape them" out of the english mistranslation of "to know". Maybe they did want to rape them, as in the very next sentence Lot offers to send out his virgin daughters. What the fuck does that say? That's not an inequity to be punished in the eyes of God, sending out your daughters, your two VIRGIN daughters, to be raped? I woulda burned Lot right there and left the city, but that's just me, judging an ancient Canaanite moon/mountain god by modern standards.

 

[CGHJ]

However I just looked it up in Leviticus, and indeed it is a sin punishable by death. Before you get all upset, death is also the punishment for breaking the sabbath. Also, in that same passage, you are warned against giving your children to Molech. Molech who? Exactly, this shit was written 3000 years ago by goatherders living in a desert.

Hey, this same book says that slavery is OK! In fact, the first laws that G-D gives his people are all about how to treat your slaves. So what the fuck did we give up slavery for, it's in the bible!!

 

[Negasta]

Seeing as I am an Atheist, I'm about as afraid of going to hell, as of a boogey man in my closet.

However I just looked it up in Leviticus, and indeed it is a sin punishable by death.

Indeed, if you take into account all the other so-called offences that were capital in the Bible, you can't give much credibility to that passage.

 

[CGHJ]

Seeing as I am an Atheist, I'm about as afraid of going to hell, as of a boogey man in my closet.

Indeed, if you take into account all the other so-called offences that were capital in the Bible, you can't give much credibility to that passage.

Right? It's like that thing with Onanism...masturbation. God killed Onan for spilling his seed on the ground. Except that he didn't--he killed Onan for not impregnating his brother's widow. So if you don't fuck your bother's widow, god will kill you. And I'm supposed to rely on this book for good advice?

It's also a sin to worship false idols. You've read the bit about the golden calf of course. But what you usually don't hear is that they weren't worshiping the golden calf as a god or instead of god, they were worshiping at as an icon of god. Yes, that's right, they were still worshipping Jehova/Yawah/El or whatever, the calf was merely a representation of Yaweh, not a replacement for him, the same way that worshiping a crucifix is worshiping a representation of god. We all know the punishment for that is death, after all, God commanded the Levites to go through and kill everyone that had done so, even kin. So, if your fambly has a crucifix, you are allowed to kill them, nay you are commanded to kill them. Frankly being gay is somewhere down the list of sins as far as that goes.

No one, not even the most ardent christian, ever takes the bible seriously. People pick out the parts they like and that suit them.

And let's not even get to the New Testes...where Jesus says simply that all you need to do is love god and have faith in him, and treat your neighbors as you would want them to treat you. And yet none of the Fred Phelps types ever goes around quoting that part for some reason.

NOT TO MENTION, the penalty for homosexuality, idol worshipping, and lighting a match on Saturday (not Sunday, the Sabbath is on a saturday and has been for 3000 years hello) is DEATH. There was no hell for you to go to back then. God doesn't say, "Do these things and you'll burn in a lake of fire", he says, "You should kill anyone who does these things." You'd think that back in the day when he had the direct line (whatever happened to that BTW? Jehova Jehova, you never call anymore, we never talk...) he would have mentioned eternal damnation to say, MOSES?!!! No, it never comes up, Jesus doesn't even mention it and you'd think if anyone would know about it he would. But no. Possibly the single most important piece of info he could possibly impart, but does he mention it? No he does not. Make one little fucking mistake in your 30+ mortal years (lifespans being shorter between the 'Methusala lived 900 years' part and recent advances in medicine) and it's an eternity of unimaginable pain and suffering....and this doesn't even get a fucking mention? Right after handing out the 10 commandments would have been a good time for it, you'd think.

Frankly, if God can't be bothered to mention hell in any of his talks with Moses, I don't think it exists.