Shame on Israel!!!

[JB3]

Wow, you sound so heart broken! Let me put it this way to make it easier for you. "A" gave me 5 of his 500 cans of tuna. "B" gave me 1 of his 10 cans of tuna. "A" obviously gave me more cans than "B", but "A" is in no way more generous, as he gave me less of his than "B". Rocket science? I think not.



That is beautiful and romantic and I'm sure they'll make a mini series about it! Until then, rest with the understanding that I don't care how anything reflects on me, especially from you.

Ps. In case aunt JoLynn didn't tell you, just because you speak out against a country's policies doesn't automatically make you hate that country or its people or ideals. In actuality, it is only the people who truly love the country who dissent and speak out when the country does things wrong. No person or entity deserves unconditional support ever.

As Jackoroe said, it isn't the fact that you speak out, its the way you do it. Every single post of yours in this and other threads on this topic shows a venomous hate for the United States and its military, and you regularly malign citizens of the US, as you have so colorfully shown in this post.

There's a difference between respectful dissent and the type you've shown. All of those in our history that have dissented against the government and what its done would be disgusted by the manner in which you do so here. It isn't constructive and it isn't worth wasting your time putting up on here.

 

[Kulindahr]

There are no rules. Only the people themselves get to decide. Modern nationalism itself in the Middle East is a product of Western European influence, particularly as an affront to colonialism, and as an organisational tool to push for decolonisation. Previously, many of these communities would have a more religious, clan, village, town, etc., as their primary identity.

I don't know if that's an improvement or not.

 

[Kulindahr]

jackoroe, you still have no idea, do you, of the judgement of many many sober thoughtful people in countries all around the world about the American "adventure" in Iraq.

Historically, "adventure" is precisely the right term for Iraq; I've been using it all along because it accurately describes the stunt: a program f the executive, with only arguable relationship to national interests, sold to the public on high-sounding principles. Ultimately, it means an effort with more entertainment than practical value, inflicted on someone else without cause.

Another thing. Disease is not technology. The tragedy which decimated Native Americans did not come out of malice, but came as a result of natural causes. There was absolutely no knowledge of the pathogenic causes of disease anywhere in the World until the 19th century.

Nor did they know anything about evolutionary patterns of pathogens, which dictate that deadly pathogens tend to move from populations with higher density and mobility to those with lesser. Europe got knocked to its knees by pathogens that were merely pains in the butt to Europeans; the Americas got rocked on their ass by pathogens from Europe. And there are hints that those tentative Chinese colonies on the Pacific Coast of North America shared some nasties with the natives as well (not conclusive,though).

That pattern has not ended, BTW, with the advent of modern medicine; one only has to look at where our new strains of flue generally arise. And I once read an article in my doctor's office that addressed the Gaza situation in those terms: by Egypt, Hamas and Israel de facto cooperating to keep the place crowded and poor, they are in effect running a biological experiment .

 

[Kulindahr]

As Jackoroe said, it isn't the fact that you speak out, its the way you do it. Every single post of yours in this and other threads on this topic shows a venomous hate for the United States and its military, and you regularly malign citizens of the US, as you have so colorfully shown in this post.

There's a difference between respectful dissent and the type you've shown. All of those in our history that have dissented against the government and what its done would be disgusted by the manner in which you do so here. It isn't constructive and it isn't worth wasting your time putting up on here.

Or as I saw in a Western once, "You kin come into mah hause and tell me ah'm wrong, but don't you evah spit on my floah."

 

[jackoroe]

jackoroe, you still have no idea, do you, of the judgement of many many sober thoughtful people in countries all around the world about the American "adventure" in Iraq.

Terrorism is not an accurate description of that campaign, in technical terms, but it aptly expresses the outrage (substantiated outrage) at what Bush did there on a whim.

Of course you don't have to agree with it, but without conceding that that is the sincerely held, and well-considered, opinion of many observers, it is you who are not ready for debate. Hide under your blanket of "they all hate us" or "they all hate U.S." or whatever, but that won't get taken seriously and you'll miss an opportunity to regain the standing that your country once enjoyed.

No arguing the point as it relates Iraq. That's at least a fair criticism that we can have honest disagreement on. But foreign policy of any country should be predicated on that nations interests whatever they may be. They should not be predicated on what other countries may or may not think as it relates to those policies. Israel to their credit, doesn't spend a great deal of time worrying about world opinion. They're more concerned with their continued existence.

 

[SoulSearcher]

My question still stands, do you think a majority of Native Americans would vote to rewind the clock to 1606 and live out there lives as their ancestors did?

Your question is almost ridiculous. As I said above, "most" Native Indians who could vote for such a thing aren't around anymore. They are in graves on which this country was built. Invalid question. The few that are left could never vote on behalf of the overwhelming majority who were annihilated.

What came out of the Columbian Exchange was in the end a better deal for everyone.

I will let you be. If you want to take the initiative to decide what is good for other peoples (as is typical of the white man throughout the Satanic colonialism), then go ahead. Most "ivory tower" (as you like to say) intellectuals and historians would greatly differ from your sick assertion. The winner doesn't get to decide what is good or bad for the ones they removed. Annihilation of almost an entire native population by a band of thugs working on such sick principles as the white man's burden, and Manifest Destiny is hardly a "better deal for everyone", but whatever makes sense in your head I guess.

By the way, North America was hardly peaceful before English colonists came.

Irrelevant. If I said I was raped by so and so, will you tell me that the people living where I live in the past also raped or were raped? So what? It doesn't speak to the morality of the incident at hand. Its an intellectual fallacy.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Like it or not, European colonists brought a better standard of living along with them from which Native Americans learned a great deal. Along those same lines, so did the Chinese when they invaded Tibet. It doesn't make those invasions right, but the standard of living among the native peoples improved, didn't they?

Please tell me how exactly the standard of living of Native Indians improved because of the invading thugs? What does one do with a "higher" standard of living when your entire peoplehood is decimated? What will I do with an Ipad and Ipod if you kill my father, give my sister STDs, make me homeless, and steal all I had, move me around, and then move me around some more??? How mind-boggling! Do you understand the plain fact that most of them were annihilated? The few who remain today remain at the edges of society. Do you know of the state of Native Indians in America today??? Seriously, whats wrong with you?

You speak as though there was some golden period of peace and prosperity before English colonists arrived. There wasn't. Living a Neolithic lifestyle is harsh and cruel.

That has nothing to do with the fact that the invading thugs took over, moved, killed, removed from their land, broke treaties, killed some more, stole children, forced their language, etc., on an entire native population. Coming from the background you and I come from, I expect you to have a better grasp on what this project was about. No hegemonic power gets to decide what is better for whom (and what genes are better for whom, which fetus to kill, which form of life to sterilise, the concept is the same, hegemonic forces trying to decide what is good for others, and in the process decimating entire populations). Genocide is never good, and trying to determine the pros and cons of it is a dangerous dangerous path.

 

[Adrock-JD]

Shame on Israel for what? Defending itself?

This "peaceful" flotilla was a ploy to break the blockade.

 

[SoulSearcher]

My question still stands, do you think a majority of Native Americans would vote to turn the clock back to 1606 and live out a Neolithic life? You never actually answered it.

You obviously didn't read the logic behind my ridicule of your question. What the few remaining Native Indians say today could not justify anything that happened in the past, as an overwhelming majority of them are no longer with us! What does it matter what the remaining few say? And what makes you think that were the Native Indians not annihilated back then, that they would not develop their own, or have peaceful exchange of technology by now, as other civilisations in the past have? Does the white man have a monopoly over the spread of technology? History says otherwise.

Ok. There's a flight from LAX to London Heathrow in about 30 minutes. You might just make it if you hurry. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Are you prepared to give up your living space if a Native American walks up to your door and asks for it? If you answer no, that makes you a hypocrite. You benefit from the forceful removal of Native Americans from the LA area don't you?

If you're looking to portray me as a thug approver, you're barking up the wrong tree mate.

Again, your arguments are incoherent and almost pitiful. Time to go to college afterall! If I live in LA, should I actively approve and whitewash and justify what happened to the Indians? You went from asserting that genocide was good for everyone involved (and yes, 12 million plus in 1500 to 237,000 in 1900 is genocide), to saying that the survivors of the genocide wouldn't want to go back to pregenocide life (as if their society wouldn't have changed on its own), to questioning the benefits I reap because of the genocide. I'm not aware of which Indians alive today in which reservation were removed from this area, but how is that relevant to my assertion that what happened to them was evil, and that it cannot be justified by what we have today? What if the German Devils living in houses and businesses owned by Jews say that the Holocaust was so wonderful in that it helped bring Germans from Romania who had been living there for hundreds of years, back to the German homeland, and those Germans wouldn't want to turn back time where they were living in Romania, that it improved the genetic make up of the German citizenry, or whatever false and perceived sense of benefit they could come up with? It doesn't work like that. We can't act, and then make up reasons and motivations afterwards to justify it. Its called Cognitive Dissonance, and its false.

With the Texas led books not even published yet, the reading of Native American history is already so radically changed. What next?

 

[bankside]

Back to self-defense, Hamas does not qualify as a militia, and neither do the thugs who attacked the IDF. A real militia would have had officers who formally informed the IDF that the ship was under their protection, and that while they would happily allow inspection by people from countries on a list provided, they would not allow any IDF people to set foot on the ship. If such a thing had been done, and the statement been sent to the press of the world by internet and to the people by YouTube, Israel would have been in a real tight spots: if they proceeded then, it would be without justification, because the militia had declared the willingness of the flotilla to be searched -- just not by Israelis or other prejudiced parties.

Ahh yes, well-organised and mannerly desperation.

Then again, I suppose I can concede that. If they have the resources to arrange a bunch of ships, they should be able to handle a communiqué as you propose - and I'd keep the Catholic church and all its orders off the list of eligible search parties. They are hardly disinterested.

Actually, perhaps we should ask the Cree to go, or the Navajo.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

( Israel ) did not attack> Israel is name of country When is educated world figure out their collective mouth create more damage thens all cretins males run countrys put tagether

Shame on many countrys past 200 years play with world ans still do NOTHING with their media and populations talks like jack asses

Give da populations of middle east their voice and tell all da professional male impotent dildos ta shut UP what run countrys ans rest of world do somethin CONSTRUCTIVE or SHUT UP

Media!!!!! Technology at ya finger tips Governments technology ya finger tips etc

same go fa lot other countrys same shit faveva

NO EXCUSES

Male speices is putrid in da eyes of life

back ta polishin ma fairy lights

Goodday

 

[opinterph]

(and yes, 12 million plus in 1500 to 237,000 in 1900 is genocide),

What was the primary kill method employed by the “invading thugs” to bring about these numbers of casualties among the Native American Indians?

 

[SoulSearcher]

What was the primary kill method employed by the “invading thugs” to bring about these numbers of casualties among the Native American Indians?

As academics say, the victorious get to write history. Naturally, there are disagreements as can be expected. For people who push for America's immaculate conception, the story is different.

It was a combination of forced removal, murder, massacres, diseases, biological warfare (deliberately spreading viruses in gift blankets), killing animals that Indians depended on to starve them, breaking the tribal and familial bonds to destroy the organisational structure by removing children, encouraging alcoholism, and many many other ways. To many invaders back then, so many Indians dying of diseases and starvation was thought to be a sort of divine intervention, a proof that God was siding with the thugs, which led to even more callous disregard and lack of empathy.

 

[opinterph]

It was a combination of forced removal, murder, massacres, diseases, biological warfare (deliberately spreading viruses in gift blankets), killing animals that Indians depended on to starve them, breaking the tribal and familial bonds to destroy the organisational structure by removing children, encouraging alcoholism, and many many other ways. To many invaders back then, so many Indians dying of diseases and starvation was thought to be a sort of divine intervention, a proof that God was siding with the thugs, which led to even more callous disregard and lack of empathy.

So if we can narrow this list of the various techniques down a bit~ Which of those methods accounts for the majority of the 12-million-plus American Indians that were exterminated in 1500?

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

What was the primary kill method employed by the “invading thugs” to bring about these numbers of casualties among the Native American Indians?

same as taday what still go on around world

when history real is write reflex nature of Man genetic LOONYS be KOOL

ans not da crap world keep teach and end up governin Planet so on etc

any male on planet got any balls centurys ago sort out lot world shit

alls world got now is Male TOONS babblins while folk die all ova planet ans planet too

If Male species cannot cure itself hope da females hurry up ans take ova before da males leave nothin but da stink of their Collective crap

 

[bankside]

So if we can narrow this list of the various techniques down a bit~ Which of those methods accounts for the majority of the 12-million-plus American Indians that were exterminated in 1500?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns...ive-americans-blankets-infected-with-smallpox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beothuk#Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_school

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_White_Paper

Absolutely! Colonists brought civilisation!

There seems to be some crowing that lies beneath assertions about Euro-colonial technological advancements compared to the simpler technology in North America. I don't think it is relevant to the idea of civilisation. Arts and culture are often considered the paragon of civilisation. The economy provided enough riches without the need for complex means of exploiting scarce resources to bother with developing them. Instead, that effort went into cultural development, the arts, etc.

Did aboriginal communties find some european technologies useful? Yes; their cultures were capable of recognising and adopting imported technology. Did that make them initially less-civilised? No - particularly by way of comparison with western europeans, who, it is noted, collected that technology from anyone they had contact with. If that is a valid way for europeans to accumulate technology without jeopardising their status as "civilised people" then importing technological know-how is just as valid for aboriginal communities.

BUT HAVE YOU noticed how we're not talking about how Israel overstepped its bounds any more? Nice diversion tactic to pick on aboriginals in north america for a while instead of answering the points about Israel's own insistence on exemplary conduct from Palestinians while it holds itself to no such standards.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

stop say israel!!

da males what in postions power ans supportin cast runnin da show same as any ohter males of mannnnnny countrys on planet

Deal with it

people deal with da collective SPeechless FUCK UPS call MAN everyday all ova planet

If same news pump out 100 years time HUMANS NO DESERVE ta continue

 

[01solara]

Maybe you should go back to your country -- wherever that is.

They probably don't want him either.

 

[opinterph]

BUT HAVE YOU noticed how we're not talking about how Israel overstepped its bounds any more? Nice diversion tactic to pick on aboriginals in north america for a while instead of answering the points about Israel's own insistence on exemplary conduct from Palestinians while it holds itself to no such standards.

Yes, I’ve noticed. (And thank you for the links.)

Are the Palestinians “less civilized” than the Israelis?

 

[Kulindahr]

Your question is almost ridiculous. As I said above, "most" Native Indians who could vote for such a thing aren't around anymore. They are in graves on which this country was built. Invalid question. The few that are left could never vote on behalf of the overwhelming majority who were annihilated.

Your 'activist' mentality is dragging into ridiculous responses. He didn't ask about ghosts, he asked about people.

I will let you be. If you want to take the initiative to decide what is good for other peoples (as is typical of the white man throughout the Satanic colonialism), then go ahead. Most "ivory tower" (as you like to say) intellectuals and historians would greatly differ from your sick assertion. The winner doesn't get to decide what is good or bad for the ones they removed. Annihilation of almost an entire native population by a band of thugs working on such sick principles as the white man's burden, and Manifest Destiny is hardly a "better deal for everyone", but whatever makes sense in your head I guess.


Irrelevant. If I said I was raped by so and so, will you tell me that the people living where I live in the past also raped or were raped? So what? It doesn't speak to the morality of the incident at hand. Its an intellectual fallacy.

So it's okay for you to decide what is better for other peoples? The only way you can refer to his position as being "sick" is if you are taking the same underlying position of claiming that you can decide what is better for other peoples.

But on a more basic level, you make a huge biological error: the annihilation of the Native American population was a given the moment contact began. Nasty diseases arise where populations are more crowded, and flow to places where they aren't. That's why plagues and such have flowed from Asia to Europe for millennia, and the truly virulent strains of things such as flu still come from Asia to the rest of the world. Some 90% of the die-off in the Americas was due to nothing the Europeans did other than walk on the soil and meet the natives.

Will you deny the right to travel and explore?



edit: Thinking of "Satanic colonialism", if you feel that way about the European population migrations, then you ought to feel that way about the mass migration of millions northward in the Americas at the present time, and ought to equally condemn the Mongols for their explosion out of Asia. After all, humans have migrated under various conditions throughout history and prehistory.

So when we hear you arguing that all the illegal immigrants ought to be violently rounded up and thrown back over the border, I'll be willing to listen to your complaints that Europeans don't belong here.