Shame on Israel!!!

[JayHawk]

Bankside... so I will play. Tell me when Israel carried out an unprovoked attack against it's neighbors. Unprovoked means no one was suicide bombing, rocket launching, hostage taking or otherwise harrasing Israel and they simply decided to do some killing because they are evil jewish guys. Give me one instance. (And no despite how you fall on the blockade this does not count)

 

[NotThatCreative]

Except that it wasn't until after the last actual war that Egypt made peace with Israel.

Not true. The last time Egypt and Israel fought was 1973 Yom Kippur War. Egypt made peace with Israel in 1979. Israel's been in multiple wars since in the 31 years since then.

 

[NotThatCreative]

Tell me when Israel carried out an unprovoked attack against it's neighbors. Unprovoked means no one was suicide bombing, rocket launching, hostage taking or otherwise harrasing Israel

Suez Crisis, Samu Incident, Qibya Massacre.

And, don't forget, the Six-Day War led to Israel conquering Sinai Peninsula, Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

 

[JayHawk]

Strange that their neighbors particularly Egypt was doing nothing but minding their business. They weren't amassing forces against Israel. They werent making threatening overtures.

Samu Incident .....in response to Fatah raids against Israelis near the West Bank border

The Qibya Massacre was the culmination of multiple forays across the border by both sides.

The Suez crisis was France and Great Britain tryin to control the Suez canal

The Six Day War shows anyone who cares that if you amass troops on the border of another country and tell them your gonna destroy them they may just destroy you back.

I think the main problem seems to be that the inferior to muslim peoples somehow fight harder and better when challenged. That sort of complicates the inferior idea.

Yet lets get out of the 1950s. Or do you desire to imply that this hatred of Jews comes from the 50s and while peace talks have occured ad nauseum since then you dont seem to point out Jewish agression of the last 50 years .... that was unprovoked...

 

[opinterph]

… point out Jewish agression of the last 50 years .... that was unprovoked...

What about the 2007 surprise attack against Syria? That incident followed the Hezbollah conflict (2006 Lebanon War) in which Syria presumably provided support for Hezbollah against Israel; however, it seems that the subsequent Israeli attack on the alleged nuclear missile facility in Syria was pre-emptive.

Israel’s top-secret air raid on Syria in September destroyed a bomb factory assembling warheads fuelled by North Korean plutonium, a leading Israeli nuclear expert has told The Sunday Times …

[Professor Uzi Even’s] theory of a clear and present danger that Damascus would get the bomb may be the only credible explanation why Israel carried out a military strike against Syria and risked an all-out conflict.

[Sunday Times UK]

 

[JayHawk]

Yes they have been a tool of our desires many many times in the past... However if you lived in a neighborhood where surrounding your house were gang members always threatened you with knives would you allow them to develop guns if you could stop it?

 

[bankside]

Strange that their neighbors particularly Egypt was doing nothing but minding their business. They weren't amassing forces against Israel. They werent making threatening overtures.

Samu Incident .....in response to Fatah raids against Israelis near the West Bank border

The Qibya Massacre was the culmination of multiple forays across the border by both sides.

The Suez crisis was France and Great Britain tryin to control the Suez canal

The Six Day War shows anyone who cares that if you amass troops on the border of another country and tell them your gonna destroy them they may just destroy you back.

I think the main problem seems to be that the inferior to muslim peoples somehow fight harder and better when challenged. That sort of complicates the inferior idea.

Yet lets get out of the 1950s. Or do you desire to imply that this hatred of Jews comes from the 50s and while peace talks have occured ad nauseum since then you dont seem to point out Jewish agression of the last 50 years .... that was unprovoked...

I don't know whose mouth you're trying to put words in here but let me take a moment to distinguish - yet again - my criticism of Israeli foreign policy - a policy which is increasingly inept, hostile and gratuitous - from any criticism of so-called "jewish aggression."

I suppose "Jewish" aggression may be criticized as such as a relatively rare phenomenon attributable to Haredi settlers and agitators, where the animus actually comes in a straight line from their interpretation of some supposed divine mandate. It factors into the larger Israeli discourse about two states, secure borders, etc, but my criticism is not of "Jewish aggression," it is of ordinary overblown Israeli nationalism whose ætiology is much more of this world than from theology.

Painting a criticism such as mine as speaking out against "Jewish aggression" is just too convenient a way of dismissing the criticism as being the product of anti-Jewish prejudice without burdening oneself with the task of rebutting the criticism. Even in this thread, the so-called "friends of Israel" (some friend who keeps silent when his friend screws up!) keep diverting things toward Judaism, and it isn't contributing to the debate.

mazda3boi, as regards your challenge, others who have posted have indicated a number of incidents which will have to suffice, because I have no intention of adding further to the list; you see you have proved my thesis earlier in the thread - each side can point to an immediate direct cause in the other camp for their actions. EVERYTHING in this conflict is done in the name of retaliation. Everything.

Using the excuse of "Well he started it" sounds juvenile and unconvincing on the playground. It is even less befitting when said of nations. And in my judgement, taking humanitarian supplies to Gaza is not retaliatory in nature. Launching the supplies out of cannons toward ones opponents as in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail would have been retaliatory in nature. This incident was not. I swear if I had a cow right now.. Fetchez la vache!!!

By the way, as far as the outfit supporting this attempted delivery, my understanding from what I read the other day was that even the United States does not judge them to be a terrorist affiliate, never mind what the Government of Turkey thinks.

 

[NotThatCreative]

Strange that their neighbors particularly Egypt was doing nothing but minding their business. They weren't amassing forces against Israel. They werent making threatening overtures.

Samu Incident .....in response to Fatah raids against Israelis near the West Bank border

The Qibya Massacre was the culmination of multiple forays across the border by both sides.

The Suez crisis was France and Great Britain tryin to control the Suez canal

The Six Day War shows anyone who cares that if you amass troops on the border of another country and tell them your gonna destroy them they may just destroy you back.

I think the main problem seems to be that the inferior to muslim peoples somehow fight harder and better when challenged. That sort of complicates the inferior idea.

Yet lets get out of the 1950s. Or do you desire to imply that this hatred of Jews comes from the 50s and while peace talks have occured ad nauseum since then you dont seem to point out Jewish agression of the last 50 years .... that was unprovoked...

If you're looking for an incident of aggression by anyone that happened in a vacuum you'll be doomed to fail. There's always enough of a pretext for leaders to be able to justify aggression to their people. You can't simply ignore incidents of Israeli aggression so blatant that even our US State Department condemned it.

The Six Days War was imminent Arab aggression. And I didn't say otherwise. But Israel didn't need to conquer those five areas to win it. They annexed land during a war. That's aggression too. It so happens I support the annexation of East Jerusalem. I think they should keep it and it's their capital. Doesn't mean they didn't get it via aggression though.

As far as being stuck in decades past is concerned, you're the one defending the ridiculous stance that it's Israel against the entire Arab world, which hasn't been true for over thirty years. You're the one who said, "Israel has one millionth the land and is endlessly attacked." Which, as I've shown, isn't true.

Remember the concept of Greater Israel I linked you to. You can be as pro-Israel as you want (lord knows I'm rather pro-Israel) but that does not mean you get to change history or the facts of aggression and victimhood. Israel isn't this innocent little country surrounded by hordes of enemies who attack it relentlessly. Yet that is how you seek to portray it.

You want to think about aggression, how about the settlement movement? Israel settlements, under Israeli law, that are built on land that's supposed to be Palestinian. Israel benefits from delaying a solution to this problem. The longer they delay, the less a chance a two-state solution will be effective. The settlements have also been declared by the UN to be a violation of international law. Over 10% of the population of the West Bank is Israeli settlers (304,569 settlers there, 2,514,845 people in West Bank).

 

[JayHawk]

I honestly could care less if they are a terrorist affiliate. Or that they are adjudged as such.

They ran at a bockade that has been in place and is legally inforced according to intl law.

When boarded for inspection they chose to attack the boarders who were not armed with lethal force. The second team used deadly force to contain a situation where there fellos in arms were being beaten to death.

How about this. Are you ok with the US Navy interdicting North Korean shipping that may be carrying nuclear production materials? SO if one of those ships we board began beating with steal pipes the sailors doing the inspection would it be the same situation? Would the world react the same?

 

[JayHawk]

If you're looking for an incident of aggression by anyone that happened in a vacuum you'll be doomed to fail. There's always enough of a pretext for leaders to be able to justify aggression to their people. You can't simply ignore incidents of Israeli aggression so blatant that even our US State Department condemned it.

The Six Days War was imminent Arab aggression. And I didn't say otherwise. But Israel didn't need to conquer those five areas to win it. They annexed land during a war. That's aggression too. It so happens I support the annexation of East Jerusalem. I think they should keep it and it's their capital. Doesn't mean they didn't get it via aggression though.

As far as being stuck in decades past is concerned, you're the one defending the ridiculous stance that it's Israel against the entire Arab world, which hasn't been true for over thirty years. You're the one who said, "Israel has one millionth the land and is endlessly attacked." Which, as I've shown, isn't true.

Remember the concept of Greater Israel I linked you to. You can be as pro-Israel as you want (lord knows I'm rather pro-Israel) but that does not mean you get to change history or the facts of aggression and victimhood. Israel isn't this innocent little country surrounded by hordes of enemies who attack it relentlessly. Yet that is how you seek to portray it.

You want to think about aggression, how about the settlement movement? Israel settlements, under Israeli law, that are built on land that's supposed to be Palestinian. Israel benefits from delaying a solution to this problem. The longer they delay, the less a chance a two-state solution will be effective. The settlements have also been declared by the UN to be a violation of international law. Over 10% of the population of the West Bank is Israeli settlers (304,569 settlers there, 2,514,845 people in West Bank).

As thousands of our dead soldiers can atest to the support does not need to come directly. Infact as we (the US) have shown and used for the last 50 years, indirect support is much better way to conduct war. It is cleaner that way. That does not remove the concept that hordes are at your doorstep. The mjority of the hordes choose not to bloody themselves in war so they prey upon those with less to do the work.

'Shame on Israel' is ignorance at the least and blatant hatred at the most. The fact that our country is not supporting the action is the culmination of a weak admin not the overiding viewpoint of this country

 

[NotThatCreative]

By the way, as far as the outfit supporting this attempted delivery, my understanding from what I read the other day was that even the United States does not judge them to be a terrorist affiliate, never mind what the Government of Turkey thinks.

From the right-leaning Telegraph:

The claims remain controversial, though IHH's public statements are aggressive. "It's an Islamist organisationas it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time," said Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment. "Some of its members went on the boat saying that they had written their last will and testament."

The Danish Institute for International Studies:

Yet, the phenomenon of charitable front groups that provide support to Al-Qaida is by no means exclusively limited to the Arabian Peninsula. Indeed, elsewhere in the Muslim world, other such entities have been established with near equal success – as in Turkey, with the so- called Foundation for Human Rights, Liberties, and Humanitarian Relief (IHH). Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons from other regional Islamic militant groups. IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”

IHH has also helped fill the void created by the departure of other, more brazen charitable front groups, such as the now-banned Benevolence International Foundation (BIF). Only one month before BIF was designated by the U.S. government as a terrorist entity, Halil Demir – a former BIF public relations officer who had traveled in the Caucasus on official business for the charity – established a new non-profit group (also based in Worth, Illinois) known as The Zakat Foundation of America (TZFA). According to its official newsletter, by mid-2003, Demir’s Zakat Foundation had sponsored at least two truck convoys traveling from Turkey to Mosul, Kirkuk, and Baghdad carrying at least $120,000 in materiel “done in coordination with IHH, a humanitarian organization based in Turkey… Portions of the supplies from [the] second relief convoy were donated locally by individuals and businesses in Turkey.” A photo comparison of images posted on the TZFA’s website demonstrate a consistent pattern of material support to IHH – both in Iraq and Afghanistan. In one case, supposed relief workers wearing smocks marked with IHH’s logo struggle to hold up a TZFA banner for a photo while goods are distributed to Afghan refugees. In another instance of clear deception, photos published in TZFA’s newsletter of truck convoys carrying relief supplies from Turkey to Sunni central Iraq were digitally tampered to remove the original IHH banner hung from the vehicles, substituting it instead with a crude replacement reading “The Zakat Foundation.”

Ultimately, Turkey was forced to ban the IHH from participating in earthquake aid efforts because it was counted among several “fundamentalist organizations” operating “secret bank accounts” that were refusing to allow local authorities to oversee the distribution of their aid resources.

They are linked to Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. They are linked to Al Qaeda.

Union of Good (aka Charity Coalition). From the US Department of the Treasury:

The U.S. Department of the Treasury today designated the Union of Good, an organization created by Hamas leadership to transfer funds to the terrorist organization.

Here are some of Israel's claims on the subject.

 

[NotThatCreative]

As thousands of our dead soldiers can atest to the support does not need to come directly. Infact as we (the US) have shown and used for the last 50 years, indirect support is much better way to conduct war. It is cleaner that way. That does not remove the concept that hordes are at your doorstep. The mjority of the hordes choose not to bloody themselves in war so they prey upon those with less to do the work.

If you want to include indirect action, I'll say again that that means the US gets put firmly on the Israel side of the scale. So there's no contest. We support Israel every bit as much as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria support groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Therefore you're still wrong.

'Shame on Israel' is ignorance at the least and blatant hatred at the most. The fact that our country is not supporting the action is the culmination of a weak admin not the overiding viewpoint of this country

As a supporter of Israel (not someone who agrees with the OP) I don't feel obliged to pretend as though that's properly directed at me. From page one of this thread I have supported Israel. I just try not to change history to justify said support. If you can't deal with the reality of the country you support, that's your problem. I have no more trouble owning up to Israel's faults than I do owning up to the US's though. I don't feel as though if I support them they must even come close to being perfect or sinless or consistently possessing the moral high ground.

 

[JayHawk]

I dont pretend either Israel or the US are sinless. However, I have never given into the idea that we give our enemies quarter and they will be grateful. That seems to be the left or liberal viewpoint. It is flase and is proven false repeatedly. If any of the conflicts we are currently engaged in... including Israels were handled in the same manner the Greatest generation fought WWII then we would have been done years ago.

All too often the main point and opinion is anti Israel. Just simply because they are Israel.

 

[NotThatCreative]

I dont pretend either Israel or the US are sinless. However, I have never given into the idea that we give our enemies quarter and they will be grateful. That seems to be the left or liberal viewpoint. It is flase and is proven false repeatedly. If any of the conflicts we are currently engaged in... including Israels were handled in the same manner the Greatest generation fought WWII then we would have been done years ago.

All too often the main point and opinion is anti Israel. Just simply because they are Israel.

I don't know if you realized it, but in this post of yours that seems to respond to a post of mine, you stop responding to what I said and begin to attack anti-Israel people. I am pro-Israel. I support their actions here. I supported them in Jan 2009 and July 2006. I support their annexation of East Jerusalem. What about that sounds "left or liberal"?

Who said anything about giving quarter to the enemy? I know I didn't. Acknowledging some of the aggression in Israel's past is not even close to the same thing as saying Israel should never go to war.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're willing to say in the abstract that Israel has made mistakes. But, when I name specifics, you accuse me (incorrectly) of opposing Israel "simply because they are Israel." I am no anti-Semite, I am not an enemy of Israel's, I do not oppose Israel. I'm a full-throated supporter who happens to think that changing history to make the side I support sound like it's never aggressed is a bad thing to do. I know we Americans like to change facts and history when they don't suit us as far as domestic affairs are concerned, but can we please at least leave such Orwellian practices out of IR?

 

[JayHawk]

I am not familiar with changing of facts or what IR is but I do understand the idea that attacking the poster vice the issue is the 'way to go' in CE&P. What facts exactly I have changed since now I am the focus of the conversation.

 

[Kulindahr]

Not true. The last time Egypt and Israel fought was 1973 Yom Kippur War. Egypt made peace with Israel in 1979. Israel's been in multiple wars since in the 31 years since then.

If you want to call the Lebanon operations wars, then you could claim that two is "multiple", which is technically correct but also misleading.

 

[Kulindahr]

Suez Crisis, Samu Incident, Qibya Massacre.

And, don't forget, the Six-Day War led to Israel conquering Sinai Peninsula, Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

The requirement was "unprovoked". Of those you listed, Qibya arguably qualifies; the rest do not. Interestingly, though, if that piece of history is examined, it reveals that a certain portion of Jordanian territory was filled with people considered "Palestinian" -- so why isn't there a demand for Jordan to slice off a piece of its land, too?

 

[T-Rexx]

Whatever you think of Israel's right to board these Turkish ships in international waters, or of Israel's right to blockade the Palestinian territory generally, this was a remarkably violent military action on the part of Israel.

The autopsies of the nine aid workers killed on the Mavi Marmara are striking. Five of the men were shot from behind, at close range. Many were shot execution-style, in the back of the head. Most were shot multiple times, with 30 bullet wounds found on the nine bodies.

Nineteen-year-old American high school student Furkan Dogan was shot five times at close range. He was shot FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD, including an execution-style shot from close range at the back of the head. He was also shot in the nose in addition to two other bullets fired into his brain. Yet another bullet entered his back and passed through his chest.

Israel contends the aid workers were "armed with knives, iron bars, slingshots, metal balls, Molotov cocktails and other weapons." It is hard to understand the need for Israel's troops to "defend" themselves so viciously from "attack" by people armed with such crude weapons and who had their backs to them.

This would not stand up as "defense" in a court of law, and it is not going to go down well for Israel internationally. Israel has further weakened its argument by erasing the memory cards of all of the cameras recovered from ships of the Gaza flotilla. Just what is it that they don't want us to see?

This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism. I am sure that not all of the international aid workers on the Gaza flotilla were saints. But this was a brutal attack by Israel on an unarmed group. And rather than present real evidence to justify its actions or admit to a mistake and apologize, Israel has chosen to try to cover things up.

If there is any doubt as to the stupidity of the current Israeli regime, they have now had to apologize for releasing a video on YouTube mocking the aid workers they killed. Unbelievable.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TveaTXLE6W0[/ame]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/293023

 

[bankside]

Strange that their neighbors particularly Egypt was doing nothing but minding their business. They weren't amassing forces against Israel. They werent making threatening overtures.

Samu Incident .....in response to Fatah raids against Israelis near the West Bank border

The Qibya Massacre was the culmination of multiple forays across the border by both sides.

The Suez crisis was France and Great Britain tryin to control the Suez canal

The Six Day War shows anyone who cares that if you amass troops on the border of another country and tell them your gonna destroy them they may just destroy you back.

I think the main problem seems to be that the inferior to muslim peoples somehow fight harder and better when challenged. That sort of complicates the inferior idea.

Yet lets get out of the 1950s. Or do you desire to imply that this hatred of Jews comes from the 50s and while peace talks have occured ad nauseum since then you dont seem to point out Jewish agression of the last 50 years .... that was unprovoked...

The requirement was "unprovoked". Of those you listed, Qibya arguably qualifies; the rest do not. Interestingly, though, if that piece of history is examined, it reveals that a certain portion of Jordanian territory was filled with people considered "Palestinian" -- so why isn't there a demand for Jordan to slice off a piece of its land, too?

Do you not understand how provocation begets provocation? It is a downward spiral of accelerating stupidity! What was the recent announcement by the Israeli interior ministry to allow more incursions into the East Jerusalem region by "settlers" if not a provocation?


Incidentally, NotThatCreative, your ideas about East Jerusalem would require never ending conflict. It is impossible that East Jerusalem, home to Muslims long enough to establish the great shrine of the Dome of the Rock, would not have some formal place as the principal city of a Palestinian state. It would be like asking Catholics to give up Lourdes to the Buddhists. It just can't be. And moreover, it needn't be.

The only alternative to East Jerusalem being the capital of Palestine would be Jerusalem (east and west) being some kind of United Nations Special Zone, and not formally part of either Palestine or Israel).

 

[JB3]

Whatever you think of Israel's right to board these Turkish ships in international waters, or of Israel's right to blockade the Palestinian territory generally, this was a remarkably violent military action on the part of Israel.

The autopsies of the nine aid workers killed on the Mavi Marmara are striking. Five of the men were shot from behind, at close range. Many were shot execution-style, in the back of the head. Most were shot multiple times, with 30 bullet wounds found on the nine bodies.

Nineteen-year-old American high school student Furkan Dogan was shot five times at close range. He was shot FOUR TIMES IN THE HEAD, including an execution-style shot from close range at the back of the head. He was also shot in the nose in addition to two other bullets fired into his brain. Yet another bullet entered his back and passed through his chest.

Israel contends the aid workers were "armed with knives, iron bars, slingshots, metal balls, Molotov cocktails and other weapons." It is hard to understand the need for Israel's troops to "defend" themselves so viciously from "attack" by people armed with such crude weapons and who had their backs to them.

This would not stand up as "defense" in a court of law, and it is not going to go down well for Israel internationally. Israel has further weakened its argument by erasing the memory cards of all of the cameras recovered from ships of the Gaza flotilla. Just what is it that they don't want us to see?

This has nothing to do with anti-Semitism or anti-Americanism. I am sure that not all of the international aid workers on the Gaza flotilla were saints. But this was a brutal attack by Israel on an unarmed group. And rather than present real evidence to justify its actions or admit to a mistake and apologize, Israel has chosen to try to cover things up.

If there is any doubt as to the stupidity of the current Israeli regime, they have now had to apologize for releasing a video on YouTube mocking the aid workers they killed. Unbelievable.

You're awfully good at spreading misinformation, but we're all too smart to fall for your bullshit.

The people on the ship were armed, just because it wasn't with guns doesn't mean they weren't. They attacked the soldiers and were surprised when they fought back.