Shame on Israel!!!

[Wajdan]

What a barbarian state. Israel attacked peace flotillas and killed 10 and injured dozens. I am afraid there will be more casualties given that many are seriously injured.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...lestinian-aid-flotilla_n_595033.html#comments

 

[nafhoosier]

What a barbarian state. Israel attacked peace flotillas and killed 10 and injured dozens. I am afraid there will be more casualties given that many are seriously injured.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...lestinian-aid-flotilla_n_595033.html#comments

Okay, calm down.

First of all, it's a real tragedy about what happened. I can't believe that the IDF thought it to be wise to fire at them at sea in international waters before they reached shore, let alone fire at them at all given that there was no evidence that they were transporting anything potentially harmful. This is really going to strain the image of the IDF and their practices worldwide. So I am a bit disturbed at the IDF's actions.

However, I want to be quick to point out that those on the flotillas weren't attacked without warning and were also reported to have attacked some of the soldiers with knives and other weapons before any shots were fired by the IDF. Again, these are conflicting reports because the event just happened and I am not justifying violence against those on the flotillas, I am merely pointing out that there are two sides to every story.

If it is indeed true that the flotillas defied orders to turn around by the IDF, they made a fatal flaw. Given the reputation of the IDF's hawkishness under the current PM, they should have known that the IDF could potentially have fired on them. Again, I am waiting to judge the incident fully until more details emerge.

Why call Israel a barbaric state though? Let's not forget this was the MILITARY acting under orders, and it is not fair to blame the entire state and its people for this incident. The current government, yes. But you get my point.

 

[unloadonme]

There are two sides to every story as the last two posts show. In the case of the Israelis and Palestinians, it's like being asked to choose between a louse and a flea.

 

[Wajdan]

Okay, calm down.

First of all, it's a real tragedy about what happened. I can't believe that the IDF thought it to be wise to fire at them at sea in international waters before they reached shore, let alone fire at them at all given that there was no evidence that they were transporting anything potentially harmful. This is really going to strain the image of the IDF and their practices worldwide. So I am a bit disturbed at the IDF's actions.

However, I want to be quick to point out that those on the flotillas weren't attacked without warning and were also reported to have attacked some of the soldiers with knives and other weapons before any shots were fired by the IDF. Again, these are conflicting reports because the event just happened and I am not justifying violence against those on the flotillas, I am merely pointing out that there are two sides to every story.

If it is indeed true that the flotillas defied orders to turn around by the IDF, they made a fatal flaw. Given the reputation of the IDF's hawkishness under the current PM, they should have known that the IDF could potentially have fired on them. Again, I am waiting to judge the incident fully until more details emerge.

Why call Israel a barbaric state though? Let's not forget this was the MILITARY acting under orders, and it is not fair to blame the entire state and its people for this incident. The current government, yes. But you get my point.

How come they attacked the IDF soldiers with knives when they were miles apart in the open sea? Only a few of the peace activists did try to stop Israeli goons from entering the ships but they were shot on the spot. Oh and the incident happened in international waters where Israel does not have any jurisdiction or control so to speak.

They were simple peace activists but IDF soldiers showed their usual extremely violent streak.

 

[Wajdan]

There are two sides to every story as the last two posts show. In the case of the Israelis and Palestinians, it's like being asked to choose between a louse and a flea.

How can you call innocent, impoverished Palestinians with massive economic blockades to affluent, powerful Israelis? Use a better analogy because this is a serious humanitarian issue. I don't understand this crap of punishing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians because of Hamas. This is just a lame excuse and now people with conscience have become aware of the double standards of Israel.

 

[NotThatCreative]

What a barbarian state. Israel attacked peace flotillas and killed 10 and injured dozens. I am afraid there will be more casualties given that many are seriously injured.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...lestinian-aid-flotilla_n_595033.html#comments

I'm sorry, but Israel does have a blockade of Gaza Strip going right now. Has been going for three years. And Egypt is also blockading Gaza Strip too, so it's not like it's just those mean, barbaric Israelis doing it either.

When it comes to that terrorist group (Hamas) Israel doesn't mess around. Everyone around the world knows this. This is, by the way, the ninth time this group has tried to get supplies through the blockade in the past 22 months. Five times they've been allowed through. But since the January '09 war against Hamas, they haven't let any through. The protestors should've been aware of this when they decided to test the Israeli military. This is the way a blockade works, the people being blockaded are denied many things. It's a harsh tactic, yes. But given the history Hamas and Israel have, and the Egyptian government with the Muslim Brotherhood, is it any surprise these two states would resort to such a measure against such a regime?

By the way, the Jan '09 offensive against Hamas and the tactics of Israel in the 15 months since seem to be working fairly well. There've been around 200 rockets fired out of the Gaza Strip and into Israel in that time. In comparison, over 2000 rockets were fired at Israel from the Gaza Strip in the first half of 2008 (the second half had that ceasefire that eventually collapsed and led to the Gaza War).

 

[Wajdan]

I'm sorry, but Israel does have a blockade of Gaza Strip going right now. Has been going for three years. And Egypt is also blockading Gaza Strip too, so it's not like it's just those mean, barbaric Israelis doing it either.

When it comes to that terrorist group (Hamas) Israel doesn't mess around. Everyone around the world knows this. This is, by the way, the ninth time this group has tried to get supplies through the blockade in the past 22 months. Five times they've been allowed through. But since the January '09 war against Hamas, they haven't let any through. The protestors should've been aware of this when they decided to test the Israeli military. This is the way a blockade works, the people being blockaded are denied many things. It's a harsh tactic, yes. But given the history Hamas and Israel have, and the Egyptian government with the Muslim Brotherhood, is it any surprise these two states would resort to such a measure against such a regime?

By the way, the Jan '09 offensive against Hamas and the tactics of Israel in the 15 months since seem to be working fairly well. There've been around 200 rockets fired out of the Gaza Strip and into Israel in that time. In comparison, over 2000 rockets were fired at Israel from the Gaza Strip in the first half of 2008 (the second half had that ceasefire that eventually collapsed and led to the Gaza War).

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your comment. Hundreds of thousands of people are being denied access to food and other items for living. Hundreds have died due to this blockade and you are harping on the same rhetoric of glorifying Israel's so-called success.

 

[Wajdan]

Denial of human necessities is a propagated myth. Israel allows the entry of humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip.

Both Israel and Egypt blockade the Gaza strip for legitimate security reasons.

If Gazans want a better life (i.e. blockade lifting), they need to elect a government that isn't a terrorist organization that wants to send suicide bombers to blow up Israeli malls and kindergartens.

Yeah. Israel is so generous that it allows one fourth of the humanitarian aid to Gazans and it takes months for the Palestinians to get these supplies. And this crap about Israeli casualties is bullshit. There is not even a ratio of 1 to 100 in Israeli-Palestinian casualties. It's not a war, its one-sided genocide.

 

[unloadonme]

innocent, impoverished Palestinians ...... because this is a serious humanitarian issue.

So innocent and impoverished that they regularly launch missiles into Israel. Clearly, the Palestinians themselves are really concerned with humanitarian issues.

I don't understand this crap of punishing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians because of Hamas.

Erm, could it be something to do with them voting for Hamas?

 

[Wajdan]

So innocent and impoverished that they regularly launch missiles into Israel. Clearly, the Palestinians themselves are really concerned with humanitarian issues.



Erm, could it be something to do with them voting for Hamas?

Yeah, this missile issue has been over hyped. Anyone with a little knowledge of the region knows the casualties of Palestinians and Israelis. They no longer buy this narrative of Israelis.

Hah, a great way of punishing hundreds of thousands of people and then finding lame excuses. Israelis and their sympathizers should know that their lame excuses no longer hold any ground.

 

[Corny]

oh great .. we are already back to the standard arguments, we could just declare this thread over already.

 

[AnalblasT]

another cheap story...

 

[Wajdan]

You need an education on what genocide even means before you start throwing around words you don't understand merely for inflammatory purposes. Using that word inappropriately, a word which refers real incidents of ethnic cleansing which have occurred around the world and which are still occurring, cheapens its meaning in an irresponsible way and is highly insulting and degrading to people who are actually victims of ethnic cleansing.

This is about containing a hostile terrorist government, something that both Egypt and Israel understand, which is why both countries have set up a blockade on the territory.

Don't you wonder why Egypt is erecting a massive steel barricade to block tunneling and migration across its border with Gaza? Isn't it obvious to you that it isn't just Israel? I guess not...

The Palestinians may now have some idea what they did when they elected a terrorist organization to run their government. I'll bet you a healthy chunk of those voters regret the decision to put Hamas in power, especially the adult ones who remember the good old days in the 80s and before when there were open borders and no terrorists.

Ha! I guess you need an education or you are simply averse to accepting the facts. You said that there was complete peace in the 1980s. What a stupid statement. What about Israeli tanks regularly running over Palestinian kids, complete economic blockade, massacres in refugee camps and other things. Last I checked, it was all before the beginning of the first Intefada in 1987.

Enough with your mad love for Israel that has blinded you.

 

[AnalblasT]

To Israel : Just kill all of them ...

 

[NotThatCreative]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your comment. Hundreds of thousands of people are being denied access to food and other items for living. Hundreds have died due to this blockade and you are harping on the same rhetoric of glorifying Israel's so-called success.

You seem to be mistaken in thinking I support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. They aren't victims of genocide, but Israel is ghetto-izing the Palestinians in both Gaza Strip and the West Bank in a way that is morally reprehensible. However, it is also understandable that Israel and Egypt would seek to keep Hamas weak, given the history Israel has with Hamas and the history the current Egyptian government has with the Muslim Brotherhood. Since their tactics with Gaza are clearly working though, I won't condemn them. They have a right to defend themselves. And that may mean preventive measures when you're dealing with people who use suicide tactics frequently.

All of the Americans who think Israel's evil can say so because they're not the ones who have to deal with rocket attacks. If, say, the drug gangs in Mexico were to begin to lob nearly 200 rockets a day into Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico, I don't believe for a moment that Americans wouldn't be crying for blood. If this were a persistent problem for a couple of decades and the Mexican government didn't handle it, Americans would be calling for many of the same tactics the Israelis are using. So let's not be hasty in condemning the efforts of Israel's military and government to secure their population.

It is also clear that these protestors knew ahead of time what they were getting into, knew the history if the IDF with this blockade, and chose to do this anyway. They knew they'd likely get boarded, but they decided to go ahead with the plan and bring weaponry. Bad idea on their part.

Now, to jockboy, it is not a myth that Gazans are denied necessities. The Israeli government technically voted to allow medical necessities and food through, but the IDF has yet to actually follow that directive. There are some high-profile instances where an NGO makes some noise and Israel is shamed into letting some stuff through, but most of the time it's a full blockade. This was one of those instances where Israel offered to let the supplies through their checkpoint if the protestors would just turn back and hand over the goods. The protestors, obviously, refused.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your comment. Hundreds of thousands of people are being denied access to food and other items for living. Hundreds have died due to this blockade and you are harping on the same rhetoric of glorifying Israel's so-called success.

Yes, hundreds of thousands of people are being denied basics -- by Hamas.

Why did Egypt close its border with Gaza? because of Israel? no, because of Hamas. Why won't they let supplies through? Hamas. Why won't they let refugees out? Hamas. Why do they cooperate with Israel in this declared blockade? Hamas.

And why do Egypt and Israel both oppose Hamas? To save lives. If the blockade were lifted, people would die. Hamas would again stage attacks from civilian targets, giving the IDF no choice. And if Iran builds nukes, without a blockade, Hamas would happily smuggle some in and set them off at the border with Israel, not caring about their own people so long as they killed Jews.

So, sure -- shame on Israel... for sending its soldiers in on a legal operation... for sending them armed with paint-ball rifles... for training their people to jump overboard in order to avoid using lethal force, and fire only when their lives were threatened. Shame on Israel... for trying to save lives.

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, this missile issue has been over hyped. Anyone with a little knowledge of the region knows the casualties of Palestinians and Israelis. They no longer buy this narrative of Israelis.

I know of the casualties -- hundreds of Israeli casualties, inflicted by Hamas. It would be thousands, or tens of thousands, except that the IDF is good at their job.

And thousands of Palestinian casualties, caused by Hamas. When an aggressor sticks command posts in hospitals and missile sites in schoolyards, they're asking for the people there to be killed. The IDF does its best to minimize those, but when their attackers choose the spots for their installations so they can guarantee lots of people will die, there's only so much that can be done.

 

[JB3]

Ha! I guess you need an education or you are simply averse to accepting the facts. You said that there was complete peace in the 1980s. What a stupid statement. What about Israeli tanks regularly running over Palestinian kids, complete economic blockade, massacres in refugee camps and other things. Last I checked, it was all before the beginning of the first Intefada in 1987.

Enough with your mad love for Israel that has blinded you.

What mad love has he shown? He's trying to be rational. You're being irrational and inflammatory.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Palestinians may now have some idea what they did when they elected a terrorist organization to run their government. I'll bet you a healthy chunk of those voters regret the decision to put Hamas in power, especially the adult ones who remember the good old days in the 80s and before when there were open borders and no terrorists.

We can hope.

this whole thing was a publicity stunt that got out of hand. last I read, Israel offered to bring the supplies into Gaza themselves but would not allow their blockade to be broken.

Which they've done before.

That this was a publicity stunt is shown by the fact that they refused to let the Israelis take the supplies in. That declares quite loudly that they were never interested in helping the folks in Gaza, only in getting a chance to be on camera. If they cared about the people, the IDF would have been met politely, with the question of whether they would take the supplies the rest of the way; the IDF officers would have been prepped to say yes, and that they would tell the people in Gaza who was to get credit, if a list would be supplied. People would have been helped, the helpers would have gotten good press, no one would have gotten hurt.

But the IDF was met with violence, proving this was no humanitarian effort.

You seem to be mistaken in thinking I support Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. They aren't victims of genocide, but Israel is ghetto-izing the Palestinians in both Gaza Strip and the West Bank in a way that is morally reprehensible. However, it is also understandable that Israel and Egypt would seek to keep Hamas weak, given the history Israel has with Hamas and the history the current Egyptian government has with the Muslim Brotherhood. Since their tactics with Gaza are clearly working though, I won't condemn them. They have a right to defend themselves. And that may mean preventive measures when you're dealing with people who use suicide tactics frequently.

All of the Americans who think Israel's evil can say so because they're not the ones who have to deal with rocket attacks. If, say, the drug gangs in Mexico were to begin to lob nearly 200 rockets a day into Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico, I don't believe for a moment that Americans wouldn't be crying for blood. If this were a persistent problem for a couple of decades and the Mexican government didn't handle it, Americans would be calling for many of the same tactics the Israelis are using. So let's not be hasty in condemning the efforts of Israel's military and government to secure their population.

It is also clear that these protestors knew ahead of time what they were getting into, knew the history if the IDF with this blockade, and chose to do this anyway. They knew they'd likely get boarded, but they decided to go ahead with the plan and bring weaponry. Bad idea on their part.

Now, to jockboy, it is not a myth that Gazans are denied necessities. The Israeli government technically voted to allow medical necessities and food through, but the IDF has yet to actually follow that directive. There are some high-profile instances where an NGO makes some noise and Israel is shamed into letting some stuff through, but most of the time it's a full blockade. This was one of those instances where Israel offered to let the supplies through their checkpoint if the protestors would just turn back and hand over the goods. The protestors, obviously, refused.

There was an article, last year sometimes, in US News IIRC, calling on Israel to set up a standard procedure for getting aid in -- and calling on Hamas to show they care for the people by cooperating. Since it was considered unlikely that anyone would agree on a location for the transfer of goods, the idea of a "floating port", with warehouses and housing and docks, be established in international waters, to be managed by the Red Cross/Red Crescent or a similar organization, to employ disadvantaged people from both Gaza and Israel. But Hamas was unwilling to cooperate in any way, showing again it doesn't give a rip about the people, and Israel refused to deal with Hamas until they renounced violence.

Idiots, both sides.

As a disadvantaged American, I'd volunteer to work on that 'island'!

 

[SoulSearcher]

What a barbarian state. Israel attacked peace flotillas and killed 10 and injured dozens. I am afraid there will be more casualties given that many are seriously injured.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...lestinian-aid-flotilla_n_595033.html#comments

Good luck talking to these people about Israel, along with owning the asses of lawmakers from both parties, Israel's propaganda machine thoroughly directs most of their moral compasses. Israel is the only country on this planet that can make or break a politician's career, it is the only country that can attack an American military ship without prompting a Congressional inquiry at the least, it is the only country that spies on the US and gets away with it, when having the choice to serve his own country's military and that of a foreign country, Rahm Emanuel chose Israeli military, and if he had served a country other than Israel, he probably would not have the position he has in the government today. Democracy is not only democracy when the elected are palatable to the Empire and its lackeys. Terrorism is not only terrorism when conducted by non state actors. Hell if it wasn't for terrorism by non state actors, Israel probably wouldn't even be a state today. It's a tragedy what happened on the ship, but it is but a small event in the long history of this conflict of decades. If the US is interested in being just, and if it wants to save Israel from destroying itself, there needs to be an end to the welfare handouts that US taxpayers give to Israel that only makes weapons manufacturers wealthier. Ethnic cleansing anywhere is wrong, not only when directed at US allies. Occupation is wrong everywhere, not just when its Kuwaitis or other US allies.